NBs, ASAI and 3

bealtine

This is what 3 have to say on a variety of issues related to midband:

http://www.asai.ie/complaint_view.asp?CID=655&BID=32

oscarBravo

bealtine wrote: »

This is what 3 have to say on a variety of issues related to midband:

http://www.asai.ie/complaint_view.asp?CID=655&BID=32

Bah. 3 completely fudged the issue of mobile "broadband" by referring to "wireless" - deliberately conflating the concepts of cellular voice versus fixed wireless technologies, and the ASAI didn't have the expertise to spot it.

It doesn't help that it's in ComReg's interest to include midband in the broadband statistics, and that the ASAI cheerfully take their word for it.

Sponge Bob

They lied outright about the OECD

oscarBravo

There's also this bit:

In relation to NBS broadband speeds, they said that 3 guaranteed a minimum speed of 1.2 MB per second...

Evidently they have a different definition of "guarantee" from the rest of us.

Sponge Bob

oscarBravo wrote: »

Evidently they have a different definition of "guarantee" from the rest of us.

It is a "smart" "green" sort of guarantee !

watty

http://www.asai.ie/complaint_view.asp?CID=655&BID=32

We need money and lawyers to fight the lost verdicts. At least 3rd complaint was upheld. Even the ASAI can see that 3 is not a leading supplier.

The NBS product only differs from regular 3 Product if you can't get a 3 signal (Repeater or Satellite dish offered).

The NBS is not Broadband, 3 do not have a broadband product.

See http://www.techtir.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=3
and
http://www.wattystuff.net/issues/mobile-and-nbs/

Why 3 Mobile / NBS is not Broaband
http://www.techtir.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=1832
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/CompareHSPAandFixed-v4.html

Detail of ASAI verdict and my refutations:
http://www.wattystuff.net/2009/11/nbs-3-and-asai/

watty

Sorry, I started a new thread on this. I'm (a) Hopping Mad. (b) Totally not surprised.

bealtine

I love the guarantees...

they said that 3 guaranteed a minimum speed of 1.2 MB per second and could provide speeds of up to 7.6 MB per second.

I wonder idly how this guarantee can be enforced, considering the limitations of the technology?
Perhaps Minister Ryan can start calling in the guarantees?

I also love the way they speak "with a forked tongue" when they equate wireless technologies with mobile midband.

bealtine

bealtine wrote: »

I love the guarantees...

Here is the full text for posterity:
The advertisement stated “3 Broadband Leading the way. Only €19.99 per month. Unbeatable value, a huge 15GB allowance, no landline required. 1800 322 33.” The footnote featured the National symbol of the Government, the EU flag and the NBS(1)logo. It stated “Ireland’s EU Structural Funds Programmes 2007-2013. Co-funded by the Irish Government and the European Union.”

The final line read in small print “Project co-funded by the Irish Government and the European Union in association with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.”

Complaint:
1. The complainant queried whether the usage of national government logos and branding in the advertisement was permitted. He also questioned the relevance of the logos as he considered that the product being advertised was available before the NBS contact was awarded

2. The complainant said that Federal Communications Commission(2)and the OECD (3)did not consider mobile broadband the same as fixed line broadband for the purposes of internet access. He considered that it was unclear from the advertisement that the product was mobile broadband and considered that mobile broadband was an inferior broadband with lower speeds and lower download limits.

3. He also challenged the statement “leading the way” and requested that the advertisers provide substantiation for this claim.


Response
The advertisers firstly stated that the contract to implement and operate the National Broadband Scheme (NBS) was entered into by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (DCENR) with 3 in 2008. They explained that the NBS will deliver broadband to certain target areas in Ireland in which broadband services are not available.

1. They said that the NBS is co-funded by the Irish Government and the European Union. All projects in receipt of EU funding must display Ireland’s EU Structural Funds logo and EU logo on all signs and on all advertisements, information and publicity material in order to recognise the role and support provided by the Government and the EU.

They said while 3 was obliged to use the aforementioned logos in advertising services in the NBS coverage areas, for the avoidance of doubt, the logos were not used in marketing material which related to 3’s standard services outside of the NBS coverage areas.

2. The advertisers said that notwithstanding the fact that the FCC had no jurisdiction or authority in Ireland, the FCC on its website stated
“Broadband includes several high-speed transmission technologies such as:
• Digital Subscriber Line (DSL)
• Cable Modem
• Fibre
• Wireless
• Satellite
• Broadband over Powerlines (BPL)”
They also said that the OECD Directorate for Science, Technology and Industry Committee for Information, Computer and Communication had stated that “Wireless broadband technologies have always been included in the historical OECD broadband subscriber statistics…”
In addition in its quarterly key data ComReg defined the“Total Number of active internet subscriptions in Ireland” as the number of subscriptions with either narrowband or broadband internet access. In turn broadband included “..broadband subscribers using high speed broadband services over platforms other than DSL (ie the copper network) such as fixed wireless access, cable modem fibre, satellite and mobile broadband using HSDPA”.
The advertisers said that it was clear that the body with responsibility for the regulation of the telecommunications industry defined broadband as including mobile broadband.
The advertisers did not consider that it was relevant that the broadband service being utilised by 3 in order to provision the NBS was mobile. The NBS requirement was to provide broadband to specific premises within the electoral districts only.

The advertisers said that 3 mobile broadband usage limit which comprises the NBS product, offered a 15 Gigabyte (GB) usage limit per month for €19.99 compared with a 10GB usage allowance with eircom Broadband Home Starter for €50.56 and 10GB usage allowance for BT 1MB Broadband for €39.16 both on a monthly basis. In relation to NBS broadband speeds, they said that 3 guaranteed a minimum speed of 1.2 MB per second and could provide speeds of up to 7.6 MB per second.

3. The advertisers said that ComReg stated that mobile broadband (via HSDPA) showed the strongest growth of all broadband platforms. Using ComReg's published quarterly figures and publicly available information regarding the other mobile operators, they said that they had calculated that 3 was leading the mobile broadband provider with 41% of the mobile broadband market, O2 with 27.4%, Vodafone with 28.5% and Meteor with 2.8%

watty

bealtine wrote: »

I love the guarantees...


I wonder idly how this guarantee can be enforced, considering the limitations of the technology?
Perhaps Minister Ryan can start calling in the guarantees?

I also love the way they speak "with a forked tongue" when they equate wireless technologies with mobile midband.

You don't wonder at all. you know it's fantasy.

[img]http:///www.wattystuff.net/mobile/mobilerange.png[/img]
LHS is Speed, RHS is typical % users @ distance, bottom axis is % of Cell radius

[img]http:///www.wattystuff.net/mobile/compare.png[/img]
Straight across line is 5MHz of Fixed Wireless or a bit less than one poor 64QAM USA cable channel shared.
Other lines are various speed of Mobile.
The 21MBps, if with one user can be HSPA, Mobile WiMax or LTE (in 5MHz).
Note that 97% of users it makes no difference if 21Mbps or 3.6Mbps mast.
75% on Mobile users ON ANY Mobile system get less than 500kbps.
All speeds are for only one user actually connected, vs % distance from mast to cell edge.
3G/HSPA performs MUCH worse than LTE or Mobile WiMax with 5 to 10 simultaneous users. The CDMA then wastes 50% to 70% of capacity.
These are based on Nokia and Ericsson figures and sound mathematics.

[img]http:///www.wattystuff.net/mobile/shannon.png[/img]
The 802.16 is Mobile WiMax.
Mobile can't ever compare with Broadband unless a mast sector has about 100MHz of spectrum. All HSPA is 5MHz. LTE and Mobile WiMax might get 10MHz in some places, but 5MHz is likely due to Regulator love of Competition and dicing the Spectum up to too many Operators. Cellular operation needs three separate channels for Downlink and Uplink, so for 100MHz Mast sectors you need an unlikely 300MHz + 300MHz. Present Irish 3G /HSPA licences are 15MHz + 15MHz allowing only 5MHz per sector.

The oft quoted 100Mbps for LTE uses 20MHz + 20MHz per sector, i.e. needs a 60MHz + 60MHz licence!
The 21Mbps becomes 84Mbps for about 0.3% of users
less than 5% of users get more than 10Mbps
75% of users get 2Mbps or less.
All if only one user is connected!
So for only 10 simultaneous LTE users on a 60MHz +60MHz licence
75% of users will have less than 200kbps.
So even the BEST (and in practice unlikely) LTE can't ensure Broadband unless you on average have only 3 people per entire cell connecting. Not economic or likely.

BTW, actual cable can have 100 8MHz 256 QAM channels. That's 4,400Mbps shared to all the users of one HFC cabinet. If you have MPEG4 TV, HD TV and Switched video then you can maybe share 2,000Mbps among 50 houses. At no contention it's 40Mbps. At 3:1 Contention it's 120Mbps.

lucernarian

Twas a shame that the difference between FWA and mobile broadband was not clarified in the complaints/responses.

What happens, supposing some customers cannot receive 1.2 mbps in the areas involved??

Sponge Bob

You must bag a specific piece of NBS advertising by 3 in an NBS area ( not off the 4 website) and complain on specific grounds . A leflet will do ( counts as promotion or ad ...not sure)

clohamon

Almost half of the entire NBS coverage area will be enabled by end 2009 while all residential and business premises within the NBS coverage area will have broadband connectivity by end September 2010.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Development/NBS+FAQs

but on the other hand..

"At the moment, mobile broadband is probably best used as a complement to fixed line broadband for businesses."

Ian Blake - National Sales Manager with 3 Ireland
quotation from "Computers in Business" November 1st 2009

watty

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/12/3_traffic_shaping/

Read comments.

The UK does not have anything like the percentage of Fixed users on Mobile as here.

When are Governments & Regulators going to ban marketing of this as Broadband?


"Mobile was designed for Intermittent non-critical Mobile access to Internet by using spare phone network capacity."

Cabaal

oscarBravo wrote: »

There's also this bit: Evidently they have a different definition of "guarantee" from the rest of us.

Think thats fun
Greens are also saying it too

Got a Green Party newsletter through my door in August stating

"The scheme will make high speed Broadband available throughout the XXXX area, with a minimum download speed of 1.2Mbps and a minmum upload speed of 200Kbps".

I did send a e-mail to Mary White about the matter as her name was on the newsletter, she says she has passed it on but I have received no update ...that was in August, I follow up with her now and then