Landlord Abandonment (sort of)

grundie

I think our landlord has abandoned us and we're not quite sure what to do.

We moved in to our apartment in April and despite a few early issues, everything seemed fine.

There is a a back story to how we got the flat. The owners were a married couple in the 40s who bought the flat to let out, but the husband shacked up with an 18 year old and moved in the flat. The wife then put her foot down and demanded he move out and let the flat out as intended.

Since we moved in there have been numerous problems, some have existed since we moved in, some are new. E.G.

- We have only one electronic key to the main door.
- The washing machine and dishwasher have never worked.
- His DIY electrical works were left unfinished and we now have bare wiring sockets hanging off walls.
- The water pump fails frequently, luckily I am able to fix this. The pump is faulty though and it should be replaced.

But what is most worrying is that he owes a lot of money to a lot of people. He has at least €500k of debts owing to multiple creditors at our address. We have found this out by accident and from the stream of debt collectors calling at the door - many of whom think I am the landlord and demand ID from me (I admit I don't help matters by refusing to provide it and by threatending to call the Gards). We receive around two registered letters for him each week, the distinctive red court stripe is visible in most of them. Even his solicitor is suing him!

His phone line is now dead and we have no other way to contact him, he seems to have abandoned the flat and his responsibilities. His wife has refused to help because "SHE [the 18 year old] was in that flat and I want nothing to do with it", but to be fair the wife isn't mentioned on the lease and has no responsibility for it and she can't contact him either.

So what can we do?

We are tempted to withhold rent for a month to try and draw him out of the woodwork and also to pay for a new dishwasher and washing machine - we have a 5 month old baby and need these appliances. The current appliances are beyond repair. Would this be legal or ill-advised?

And what do we do about all the debtors? The whole situation is becoming a major hassle for us. We have started to return all his mail to the sender, but it still keeps coming. More to the point, could the property be repossessed (all the debts are unsecured AFAIK) with us in it?

We're a bit lost, so can anyone offer any advice?

Cathmandooo

Is moving out an option?

For starters any post sent to you should just be redirected to him, what's in those letters is his business.

Contact Threshold and the PRTB about either breaking the lease (bare wires and broken appliances are possibly a breach of his obligations, particularly with a baby in the house) and look for somewhere else to live or getting the appliances sorted yourselves and takig it out of your own rent.

Sounds all extremely messy so I'd get out of there if possible.

grundie

Cathooo wrote: »

Is moving out an option?

It is, but with the new baby we'd rather not. It would be a right hassle to move now.

Cathooo wrote: »

For starters any post sent to you should just be redirected to him, what's in those letters is his business.

I suspect he is refusing to collect his mail or have it redirected in order to avoid having admit he has received court papers.

Also, our postman signs for all our recorded delivery mail, so we have no chance to reject it.

Cathooo wrote: »

Contact Threshold and the PRTB about either breaking the lease (bare wires and broken appliances are possibly a breach of his obligations, particularly with a baby in the house) and look for somewhere else to live or getting the appliances sorted yourselves and takig it out of your own rent.

If things don't improve we will.

Cathooo wrote: »

Sounds all extremely messy so I'd get out of there if possible.

The thing is, we really like the flat despite all the problems. Also, moving out is somethign we really couldn't face any time soon, we're on the 11th floor and moving our furniture so soon after moving it in would be such a pain.

analbumcover

Sounds like your man the landlord is in allot f trouble. I would withhold rent until he fixes the appliances and all the snagging. I would also get a receipt for all you've paid before paying anymore.

However, if I were to chance a guess I'd say he probably hasn't paid the mortgage and it's only a matter of time until the flat is repossessed by the bank. If what you say is true he could be on his way to jail for non-payment of debts.

You should move out and get out of this mess but do it on your own terms

grundie

Did I also mention he hasn't paid the management company in three years?

They had a guy come round asking if we knew how to get in touch with him.

analbumcover

grundie wrote: »

Did I also mention he hasn't paid the management company in three years?

They had a guy come round asking if we knew how to get in touch with him.

How do you know if he's paid the mortgage?

eth0_

analbumcover wrote: »

How do you know if he's paid the mortgage?

Maybe that's who sent the bailiffs.

OP you should just move out. It's not *THAT* much hassle...and it sounds like you'll have to move out soon anyway, given the landlord's debts secured on the property.

January

Why is the postman signing all registered post, if he can't deliver registered post personally he should be dropping attempted delivery notices into the letterbox, not signing off on post that is not being delievered to the right person! I'd raise that with your local sorting office if I were you.

Cathmandooo

11th Floor so I assume you have a lift?

As others have said, the place could be repossessed soon judging by all the letters. Move elsewhere (maybe look for something similar in the same building??) before you arrive home to a 24 hour vacation notice on your door. That would be much more hassle!

Zamboni

Yep. Moving when it is your choice is far easier than moving when it isn't.

the_syco

..

=-=

On a side note, I say we'll be seeing more of this as more landlords default on their payments.

quozl

Guys do you have any basis for these suggestions or are you just making them up?

If the property is re-possessed that does not give the new owner the right to ignore the lease of a sitting tenant.

Is there any legal basis for a suggestion of a 24 hour eviction notice?

robd

grundie wrote: »

Did I also mention he hasn't paid the management company in three years?

They had a guy come round asking if we knew how to get in touch with him.

grundie,

The correct way to do it is to post a letter to what ever address you have for him, demanding resolution of outstanding issues within 28 days. Once this passes you can get the problems resolved yourself and deduct it from the rent. Then you just need to keep a copy of the receipt and post a copy to the address you have for him.

I'd withhold a months rent to cover deposit also as I don't think your landlord is credit worthy to hold on to it. Not quite legal but.

Realistically you should contact Threshold to confirm everything. The rate things are going things are likely to get worse. If things are passed on by the debt collectors to the county sheriff and he turns up at your door with the heavies, he can seize all furniture as it belongs to landlord. The sheriff has more power the the Gardai when it comes to seizing items to pay of debts.

In the end I suspect, you will be left with little choice but to move out. The place will be repossessed and is likely going through the courts at present. You'll also lose your deposit as you will be considered a creditor just like everyone else. i.e. you'll be just like the rest of the debt collectors.

Zamboni

quozl wrote: »

Guys do you have any basis for these suggestions or are you just making them up?

If the property is re-possessed that does not give the new owner the right to ignore the lease of a sitting tenant.

Is there any legal basis for a suggestion of a 24 hour eviction notice?

Maybe there are ways for him to stay but...
Is that the type of hassle a young couple with a new baby needs though?
There are times when it is more important to look after your family then it is to stick by your guns and fight for right etc.

grundie

adrieanne__x wrote: »

Why is the postman signing all registered post, if he can't deliver registered post personally he should be dropping attempted delivery notices into the letterbox, not signing off on post that is not being delievered to the right person! I'd raise that with your local sorting office if I were you.

It appears to be normal practice in our area. I ranted about it in another thread. I have been making a habit of downloading the TIF scans of the signature sheet - which is always blank or illegible - just in case they may be needed.

grundie

Zamboni wrote: »

Yep. Moving when it is your choice is far easier than moving when it isn't.

I agree. Moving with a new baby is something we really can't face right now.

PS My father-in-law drove a Zamboni for a living.

grundie

Cathooo wrote: »

11th Floor so I assume you have a lift?

As others have said, the place could be repossessed soon judging by all the letters. Move elsewhere (maybe look for something similar in the same building??) before you arrive home to a 24 hour vacation notice on your door. That would be much more hassle!

Don't get me started on the lift!

The electronic locks sometimes fail and that causes the local troublemakers to enter and smash the fire alarm glasses. This then causes the lifts to shut down. Shutting down the alarm will not re-activate the lifts, the only thing that works is replacing the glasses which can take hours, even days, sometimes. The security patrol is part time and do not keep a stock of glasses in their hut.

We have complained to the management company about the door locks failing repeatedly, but they say that we have to speak to our landlord and they will not deal with us.

grundie

robd wrote: »

grundie,

The correct way to do it is to post a letter to what ever address you have for him, demanding resolution of outstanding issues within 28 days. Once this passes you can get the problems resolved yourself and deduct it from the rent. Then you just need to keep a copy of the receipt and post a copy to the address you have for him.

I'd withhold a months rent to cover deposit also as I don't think your landlord is credit worthy to hold on to it. Not quite legal but.

Realistically you should contact Threshold to confirm everything. The rate things are going things are likely to get worse. If things are passed on by the debt collectors to the county sheriff and he turns up at your door with the heavies, he can seize all furniture as it belongs to landlord. The sheriff has more power the the Gardai when it comes to seizing items to pay of debts.

In the end I suspect, you will be left with little choice but to move out. The place will be repossessed and is likely going through the courts at present. You'll also lose your deposit as you will be considered a creditor just like everyone else. i.e. you'll be just like the rest of the debt collectors.

We have written to him, with no response.

We have decided that we will move in January. We have too much on our plates to move this side of Christmas. That gives us two months to find somewhere new.

shoegirl

analbumcover wrote: »

However, if I were to chance a guess I'd say he probably hasn't paid the mortgage and it's only a matter of time until the flat is repossessed by the bank.

Absolutely, I'd put a months notice in writing and withhold the last months rent as your chances at getting your deposit back are less than zero. I'd get out before you find yourself evicted by the new owners.

quozl

Zamboni wrote: »

Maybe there are ways for him to stay but...
Is that the type of hassle a young couple with a new baby needs though?
There are times when it is more important to look after your family then it is to stick by your guns and fight for right etc.

Way to miss the point, Zamboni.

My point is that people are posting complete bullsh1t as fact. That does not help the OP decide what to do. If people post bullsh1t it should be pointed out as such.

I would likely move out in the OPs position, however ridiculous, alarmist advice, is no use to anybody. The suggestion of a 24 hour eviction notice would fit in a dickens novel, not the real world.

If the bank were to repossess then his lease would still be valid. If he has signed a twelve month lease for example, then even if the bank sold the property to a new owner, the new owner could not kick them out! If it is a part4 tenancy, then he'd need to talk to threshold to get the exact details, but it's still hard to kick someone out.

robd

quozl wrote: »

Way to miss the point, Zamboni.

My point is that people are posting complete bullsh1t as fact. That does not help the OP decide what to do. If people post bullsh1t it should be pointed out as such.

I would likely move out in the OPs position, however ridiculous, alarmist advice, is no use to anybody.

If the bank were to repossess then his lease would still be valid. If he has signed a twelve month lease for example, then even if the bank sold the property to a new owner, the new owner could not kick them out! If it is a part4 tenancy, then he'd need to talk to threshold to get the exact details, but it's still hard to kick someone out.

Always a problem with an Internet Board. Advice conflicts. That's why it's so important when faced with a dangerous situation like this to contact Threshold.ie and get factual advice.

grundie

quozl wrote: »

If the bank were to repossess then his lease would still be valid. If he has signed a twelve month lease for example, then even if the bank sold the property to a new owner, the new owner could not kick them out! If it is a part4 tenancy, then he'd need to talk to threshold to get the exact details, but it's still hard to kick someone out.

Is that really the case? I assumed that if a property was repossessed then any rental leases had no legal standing with the bank. I thought leases only remained valid when the property was sold on voluntarily.

(I know I really should see a solicitor, which I will)

the_syco

quozl wrote: »

My point is that people are posting complete bullsh1t as fact. That does not help the OP decide what to do. If people post bullsh1t it should be pointed out as such.

Agreed. Edited my post.

quozl wrote: »

If the bank were to repossess then his lease would still be valid. If he has signed a twelve month lease for example, then even if the bank sold the property to a new owner, the new owner could not kick them out! If it is a part4 tenancy, then he'd need to talk to threshold to get the exact details, but it's still hard to kick someone out.

Cannot find any info about this, so I'd advise the user goto Threshold.

grundie

shoegirl wrote: »

Absolutely, I'd put a months notice in writing and withhold the last months rent as your chances at getting your deposit back are less than zero. I'd get out before you find yourself evicted by the new owners.

We had already planned to withhold our last months rent at the end of our lease due to all the issues we had and also because we suspect we wouldn't get our deposit back. We figure that if he has a problem with that we'll be happy to see him in court.

quozl

grundie wrote: »

I assumed that if a property was repossessed then any rental leases had no legal standing with the bank.

I'd suggest contacting threshold btw, before a solicitor. It's free. I doubt they'd advise you to use your deposit as the last months rent, as that would be breaking the terms of your lease. That is probably what I'd do in this case as otherwise I would never expect to see my deposit back. I just don't know if Threshold can advise that sort of thing.

However, they should be able to tell you exactly where you stand.

The fact that the property is repossessed does not remove your rights or invalidate the legal contract you signed (unless the contract had a specific clause saying it would be in this case). I am 100% sure that your assumption above is incorrect, however, I am not a lawyer, talk to threshold.

analbumcover

eth0_ wrote: »

Maybe that's who sent the bailiffs.

OP you should just move out. It's not *THAT* much hassle...and it sounds like you'll have to move out soon anyway, given the landlord's debts secured on the property.

Yep... however I assume grundie has been paying rent on time and has a deposit with this "landlord" I doubt he's gonna get that back.

Check this out Grundie:

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/1103/presswatch.html

This landlord has much bigger problems than this flat...

Here's what I think...

You've got a baby in the house, you don't need all this mess... but you haven't had a working dishwasher and washing machine since you moved in. The landlord has gone off the radar and you've been harassed by his creditors.

If I were you I'd wouldn't pay a cent more until he fixes the outstanding issues, and somehow provides you with evidence that the bank won't be repossessing the flat anytime soon.

I doubt you'll even get him on the phone and eventually you'll be put out by the bank. In the meantime save your money, and should the landlord do the above then pay him, if he doesn't show up you've got free rent.

If he does show up make sure he fixes everything a get a receipt for everything you've paid... but I doubt you'll ever see this guy again.

There is an article in the May/June 2009 Adbusters called "recessionomics" inside it says this on squatting...

"If you happen to be one of the several millions people facing foreclosure in the wake of the mortgage crisis, fret not, the financial institution in control of your loan has probably ceased to exist. Even if you've been officially ordered to vacate the premises, it's likely that during all the recent chaos , your (deceased?) bank may have lost the physical record of you mortgage. In this case, it will take years of litigation before a decision is made."

Right now, we have thousands of "ghost" properties in Ireland, vacant estates and holiday homes. The banks can't afford to pay to have security firms check on them daily.

Now, I realise the bank who holds his mortgage probably isn't deceased but it is up to eyes in defaulted mortgages... take advantage of the situation.

Worse case scenario you'll be ordered to pay the rent to the landlord by a court and because you didn't spend it on anything else you'll have it to hand. You can always say to the court or other official that you couldn't get him on the phone (and it'd be true!) and you didn't pay because he failed to live up to half of the agreement.

Not having a washing machine and dishwasher sucks but free rent is grand, you could milk this out for months!

Make sure you understand all your rights: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/housing/renting-a-home

analbumcover

shoegirl wrote: »

Absolutely, I'd put a months notice in writing and withhold the last months rent as your chances at getting your deposit back are less than zero. I'd get out before you find yourself evicted by the new owners.

+1 at the very least.

I'd also make sure you have some sort of record of the rent you have paid. If you have been doing it by bank transfer, make sure you have the statements.

analbumcover

Cathooo wrote: »

11th Floor so I assume you have a lift?

As others have said, the place could be repossessed soon judging by all the letters. Move elsewhere (maybe look for something similar in the same building??) before you arrive home to a 24 hour vacation notice on your door. That would be much more hassle!

I think that's against the private residential tenancies act. The bank would have to give him at least 30 days I'd think!

grundie

The f**king arsehole!!!!

Judgement for non-payment of the mortgage was entered against him on the 8th October. We have copies of the judgement, it really happened.

Looks like we'll be moving soon.

amdublin

What is actually good about this apartment and the situtation you are in?

Sounds very stressful what you are putting up with.

There are so many available properties atm. You could probably get one in the block you are currently in.

Why are you bothering living in this stressful situation and complaining about it here? It is obviously bothering you.

New baby or no new baby just move for god's sake.

amdublin

grundie wrote: »

The f**king arsehole!!!!

Judgement for non-payment of the mortgage was entered against him on the 8th October. We have copies of the judgement, it really happened.

Looks like we'll be moving soon.

Sorry, I've just seen this post. Looks like you are moving anyway.