Settle an argument??

dearg lady

I thought I'd post this here as probably most people here drive too, but obviously have considerable cycling experience. I need opinions on an argument I got into this morning.

So this is the story, I was approaching a roundabout on my bike on the left hand side of the left hand lane, and moving into the middle of the lane. Queuing for a roundabout is one of the few places I merge with traffic, and take a place in the line of traffic, so some idiot turning left doesn't pull out across me and hit me when i'm going staright through the roundabout. However on occasion, i guess I stay too far left and a car squeezes in beside me and that happened this morning. I moved the bike forward(traffic was stopped) and pull my bike in front of this car. When I get a space to move out into the roundabout I pull out in front of him, and he decides to go around me on the outside(we're both going straight through) leaving me in between two cars as I go around the roundabout.

Now I caught up with him further down the road and said I had a problem with this, he reckons I was completely in the wrong to pull into the middle of the lane of cars. i wasn't explaining myself very well to him I fear but I'm not sure myself. I'm now slightly concerned that I might legally be in the wrong but it's one of those safety habits Ive picked up as I've had my wheel tipped a couple of times by left turning cars as I'm going straight through a roundabout.

second thing, even if I was in the wrong, I still think he shoudln't have undertaken me on a roundabout. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that.

So yeah, am I just being a whingy cow? What position would you normally hold on a roundabout?

The guy in question was pretty nice like, said he cycles himself, but maintained he was absolutely right.

Lumen

You're entitled to take the lane if you're doing it for reasonable safety reasons. I don't really understand how he managed to push you right into a position between the two lanes.

I would normally take the lane as I enter the roundabout, then pull left after the first exit.

In any case, undertaking is illegal.

dearg lady wrote: »

said he cycles himself, but maintained he was absolutely right.

They're the worst.

dearg lady wrote: »

The guy in question was pretty nice like

Nice, or nice?

stopped_clock

Sounds like you were in the right to me. Taking the lane is recommended practice for the reason you say. You were in the centre of the left-hand lane?

Was there much room for him to undertake?

thebouldwhacker

Firstly I believe there is never an excuse to put someone in danger, no matter who is right or wrong, squeezing you between two cars on a roundabout is not something that should happen.

Besides that, when I'm stopped at a roundabout I take a second to look behind me and make eye contact with the driver I'm stopped in front of, when on the roundabout I take the middle of the lane with plenty of looking around to make sure I'm not gonna be taken out from the inside.
I think eye contact and looking around really works as it makes the other drivers realise that your a person, not just an obstacle to be past out.

coolbeans

It's essential to assert yourself on roundabouts otherwise you run the risk of being caught between two streams of traffic which is highly dangerous. This guy was completely in the wrong and despite his protestations to the contrary I doubt he does much cycling himself if he really thinks what you did was incorrect.

seamus

He was completely and utterly 100% in the wrong. You are perfectly entitled to move into the middle of the lane (provided you have room to do so). Overtaking/undertaking on a roundabout is technically illegal so he was in the wrong.

If he was a cyclist himself, I'm apalled at his lack of common sense. Right or wrong, I'd never put myself beside a cyclist on a roundabout.

tomasrojo

He passed you on the left, while occupying the same lane? Definitely the wrong thing to do. In fact, passing you on the right in the same lane if there is less than one metre of clearance is also definitely wrong.

Taking the lane is, as said above, a standard cycling practice and is recommended in the scenario you describe by Cyclecraft and the Bikeability programme in the UK. Since we have nothing equivalent here, I'd go with what they say.

I would however join the queue of traffic waiting to go onto the roundabout myself, rather than nip in front of someone, if at all possible. That's the only bit that sounds less than perfect in what you did; you shouldn't nip in front of people in any vehicle. However, sometimes you have to, whether you're in a car or on a bike.

tomasrojo

People often say they cycle themselves when they are saying or doing something prejudicial to cyclists. It's the same as saying "some of my best friends are [insert ethnic minority]" before saying something racist.

Doesn't mean somebody saying it is lying, of course.

dearg lady

thanks for all the replies!

Lumen wrote: »

You're entitled to take the lane if you're doing it for reasonable safety reasons. I don't really understand how he managed to push you right into a position between the two lanes.

I would normally take the lane as I enter the roundabout, then pull left after the first exit.

In any case, undertaking is illegal.



They're the worst.



Nice, or nice?

Yeah Lumen, I normally do the same, the problem with the round about is it's quite wide, Darndale roundabout if you know it?

do you mean like hot?? Ewww, no!!

stopped_clock wrote: »

Sounds like you were in the right to me. Taking the lane is recommended practice for the reason you say. You were in the centre of the left-hand lane?

Was there much room for him to undertake?

see above, there was enough room, as it's so wide. I probably should have been more careful about my position as I went around the roundabout, constantly checking but it;s quite busy, and I'm usually just trying to get through to the other side!!

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Firstly I believe there is never an excuse to put someone in danger, no matter who is right or wrong, squeezing you between two cars on a roundabout is not something that should happen.

Besides that, when I'm stopped at a roundabout I take a second to look behind me and make eye contact with the driver I'm stopped in front of, when on the roundabout I take the middle of the lane with plenty of looking around to make sure I'm not gonna be taken out from the inside.
I think eye contact and looking around really works as it makes the other drivers realise that your a person, not just an obstacle to be past out.

Yeah, I think that's good advice. Usually I'm careful not to leave enough room for a car to squeeze into the lane beside me, but in this instance I didn't and I think he was annoyed that I then moved off in fron of him. For my own sake I should probably if that happens in future, just pull in behind the car that does this

stopped_clock

dearg lady wrote: »

I'm now slightly concerned that I might legally be in the wrong....

Remember that, in rules-of-the-road terms, a bike is considered a vehicle too (for the most part).

So, if it's legal/illegal for a car, the same applies to a bike.

Also, right-of-way is always subordinated to not putting anyone in danger, so two wrongs never make a right (but yes, sometimes three lefts do).

There are some obvious exceptions like two-abreast and bike lanes etc, but I'm sure you get my drift.

thebouldwhacker

Your thread is titled 'settle an argument'..... are you still road side arguing with him

dearg lady

Yeah, I think sometimes I don't assert myself as much as I should, which I know can make me a bit of a 'target' on the roads, being a bit nervous, and a woman(the horror!!) and on a lowly bicycle In the same way that some poeple will try to imtimidate learner drivers, the same is often done to cyclists.

I'm usually pretty confident but got hit by a car on the far side of the same roundabout a few weeks ago and this has me overly cautious. thanks for all the replies. I will have to make sure in future that I'm properly merged with traffic and not 'nipping in', as you say tomasrojo, it's not a good idea, and it only antagonises people

dearg lady

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Your thread is titled 'settle an argument'..... are you still road side arguing with him

Yup..... furiously writing these messages from my phone!! :P

Jip

It's not unusual to see that happen. A woman tried do the same to me one morning, I was taking the third exit, there was 2 lanes on the roundabout so when I was past 12 o'clock I was in the left lane and went to move to the far left to take the exit. As I looked behind a BMW went to go around me on the outside (which meant she'd be on my inside as we exited) as I was exiting but I made eye contact, made a gesture of where I was going and held my position. The silly cow then attempted to say something to me at the exit of the roundabout as she slowed down and wound down her window but I was gone off a different way anyway.

tomasrojo

I usually try and change my route if there's a part where I'm persistently harrassed or stressed. Maybe try and find a route that doesn't have this roundabout?

I also have different routes depending on what time of day it is, since some routes are fine outside rush hour and handier.

Lumen

I've always thought that the left hand lane should be used for going straight on unless lane markings say otherwise.

Apparently, this is not true. According to the RSA, if the left lane is blocked you can use the right hand one.

Here's a video they've made. Warning: may cause drowsiness.

dearg lady

tomasrojo wrote: »

I usually try and change my route if there's a part where I'm persistently harrassed or stressed. Maybe try and find a route that doesn't have this roundabout?

I also have different routes depending on what time of day it is, since some routes are fine outside rush hour and handier.

I actually don't go home that way in the evening cos the kids love to throw stones at well, just about anything/anyone :rolleyes: damn, why is cyclin around Dublin such a hazardous activity??!! There is another way i can go, but it's got millions of traffic lights and a horrible road surface so I do prefer this way, in spite ofhaving to go through three roundabouts! I'll get out the map later tho and investigate other ways

Jip

Lumen wrote: »

I've always thought that the left hand lane should be used for going straight on unless lane markings say otherwise.

That's how I understand it too. In my instance I was on the left of the right hand lane until past 12 o'clock, moved into the left lane then as one should, and I was progressing to the right of the lhl the car then attempted to basically go up my left.

There's one particular roundabout near where I life at the entrance/exit to the estate. Again it has 2 lanes all the way around and when exiting the estate you can only go left or right. For some inexplicable reason alot of cars exit in the left lane to go right

stopped_clock

That's why I'll often stay in the left-hand lane when going right on larger roundabouts, being careful to signal like mad that I'm not taking the straight-on exit.

Jip

I think that could in itself cause bigger issues. On two lane roundabouts traffic in the right lane often goes straight on which would become hazardous to a cyclist in the left lane going around the roundabout, plus it may have motorists wondering what is this guy up to or not expecting someone to go right across them, despite your gestures.

07Lapierre

I think the problem here is that the motorist "assumed" the cyclist was in front of him becausethe OP was turning right (or taking the 3rd exit). This is why he passed her on the left. I also think that the OP left too much room on her left as she moved onto the roundabout. I think she should have moved from the centre of the left lane, over to the left as soon as she passed the first exit. (I'm assuming here were talking about a roundabout with 4 exits).

I don't think its a question of who's right or wrong. It simply a case of cycling "defensively".

I have to negotiate a similar roundabout myself ( I have to take the 3rd exit). I always try to avoid having to come to a complete stop at the roundabout. I like to be able to have some momentum so that as I arrive at the roundabout, I can go onto the roundabout( in the centre of the left lane) at the same speed as the traffic. Once on the roundabout, I indicate RIGHT and go around the roundabout and move slightly to the right of the Left lane(to prevent cars in the left lane who are also taking the 3rd exit from passing me). Once I pass the 2nd exit, I now indicate left and move back to the centre of the left lane and then exit the roundabout and take up position on the extreme left of the road.

Of course this technique goes out the window once there are traffic lights on the roundabout! and also if the roundabout is very small ( example the roundabout at the coachmans pub near Dublin Airport). I'm open to ideas as to how to cross this roundabout

tomasrojo

dearg lady wrote: »

I actually don't go home that way in the evening cos the kids love to throw stones at well, just about anything/anyone :rolleyes: damn, why is cyclin around Dublin such a hazardous activity??!! There is another way i can go, but it's got millions of traffic lights and a horrible road surface so I do prefer this way, in spite ofhaving to go through three roundabouts! I'll get out the map later tho and investigate other ways

I know what you mean. But, to be fair, motorists also have different routes for different times of day.

Keep an eye out for estates and backroads that aren't used so much by cars. Sometimes there are cul-de-sacs which can be used as through-ways by bikes. Apart from broken glass, these can be a real boon when you're looking for a quieter cycle to work.

stopped_clock

Jip wrote: »

I think that could in itself cause bigger issues. On two lane roundabouts traffic in the right lane often goes straight on which would become hazardous to a cyclist in the left lane going around the roundabout, plus it may have motorists wondering what is this guy up to or not expecting someone to go right across them, despite your gestures.

Yeah fair point. Another case of that dreaded 'personal judgement'!

There's only one roundabout (and a temporary one at that) where I do this and all the exits are single lane and narrow, so it does feel like the safest thing to do. Because it's a large roundabout, it avoids merging twice.

So on busy, large, 2-lane (on and off) roundabouts, is the best approach for RH turns to use the RH lane? Essentially the same approach as for driving with the usual defensive cycling caveats?

EDIT: I'm talking about the same thing as 07Lapierre...

blorg

Whatever you did, you were wrong /TimAllen

Roundabouts are a problem for cyclists all right. If you stay to the left you will have motorists overtaking and turning across you at the exits. As they would see it you were in the wrong lane with the wrong road position for someone not taking that exit.

This is exacerbated by roundabouts that place cycle lanes around their periphery which is common enough.

On the other hand if you take the lane you will have likes of TimAllen moaning about how this is illegal and how as a cyclist you have to keep left. Personally I think bang in the center of the correct lane and over-indicatation is really the only way to go. Basically do exactly as you would in a car but you will also have to indicate that you are staying on the roundabout when passing an exit you are not using.

Still not foolproof, you will still have people turn across you (if in the left lane) or undertake (if in the right lane) no matter how clearly you are indicating where you are going.

ednwireland

e shouldnt have undertaken you people in donegal have no idea how to go round a roundabout or how to indicate (we've not had them long)

and the ones round me have 2 lanes in one lane out and they arent really wide enough for 2 cars, hours of endless fun, seen loads of people drive the wrong way when turning right (they see the exit and go the shortest route)

i guess its the joys of less traffic

emanresu

I agree with previous posters that you were in the right, and the car driver was wrong to squeeze in beside you.

Someone mentioned that maybe you shouldn't have nipped in front of traffic approaching the roundabout, and you should have joined the queue of traffic coming up to the roundabout. However, I understood from your post, that you were already waiting at the roundabout before the car squeezed in beside you there also, and that is the only reason why you nipped in front. So I think you were 100% correct there also.

One thing I have to say about your post; it's confusing when you say:

dearg lady wrote: »

... and he decides to go around me on the outside ...

Going by the rest of your post, he actually went around you on the inside (on your left).
Either way, overtaking in your lane, or undertaking, he would have been wrong anyway. You were entitled to the full width of the lane. A car can't squeeze in beside you in the same lane.

By the way, I'm a car driver, I haven't cycled for years.

PS, This thread also covers the same topic in posts 8, 9 and 10.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055637941

Turbulent Bill

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Besides that, when I'm stopped at a roundabout I take a second to look behind me and make eye contact with the driver I'm stopped in front of, when on the roundabout I take the middle of the lane with plenty of looking around to make sure I'm not gonna be taken out from the inside.
I think eye contact and looking around really works as it makes the other drivers realise that your a person, not just an obstacle to be past out.

+1, I go for the Pierluigi Collina eyeballing while passing the exits of a roundabout. Effective and fun.

Lumen

ednwireland wrote: »

people in donegal have no idea how to go round a roundabout or how to indicate (we've not had them long)

and the ones round me have 2 lanes in one lane out and they arent really wide enough for 2 cars, hours of endless fun, seen loads of people drive the wrong way when turning right (they see the exit and go the shortest route)

:eek:

Beasty

Similar thing happened to me a couple of weeks back. I was turning right (taking the third exit on a roundabout with 5 exits in total). The roundabout has 3 lanes.
There were lights before the second exit, and the road markings indicated left lane straight on, right lane turn right, and middle lane do either. Car in the middle lane indicated left, and I therefore took position in front of him, indicating right.
Lights turn green, I move off heading towards the left lane before the lights at the next (my) exit. Car behind does as indicated, taking the second exit. Before I get chance to get into the left hand lane another idiot comes up on my inside (at speed) leaving me stuck between 2 lanes of traffic (he then went through the lights as they were turning red).

niceonetom

OP - next time less typy-type, more smashy-smash. That'll learn 'em.

Lumen wrote: »

:eek:

I saw that in dublin 15 a few weeks ago, probably no more that a few km from you. There's no chance that anyone in blanchardstown could not understand a roundabout - we have roughly 3.5 roundabouts per person around here - but we do have a lot of complete bastards. Scared the **** out of me at the time.

tomasrojo

emanresu wrote: »

Someone mentioned that maybe you shouldn't have nipped in front of traffic approaching the roundabout, and you should have joined the queue of traffic coming up to the roundabout. However, I understood from your post, that you were already waiting at the roundabout before the car squeezed in beside you there also, and that is the only reason why you nipped in front. So I think you were 100% correct there also.

You could place yourself in the centre of the lane even when there is no traffic behind you. I generally do this at all junctions.

blorg

niceonetom wrote: »

OP - next time less typy-type, more smashy-smash. That'll learn 'em.

Is this an attempt to summon you-know-who? I only said his name twice, I was careful that way.

victorcarrera

I won't attempt to advise on Settling the argument but here is how I avoid them on roundabouts.
A quick glance over the shoulder to see if you have room to move out a little. If faster traffic approaching from rear give hand signal to the right. This puts motorists on the alert and should prevent them overtaking you on the roundabout.
Repeat the above for every exit that you do not wish to take.

FWIW. I am also a motorist and would never overtake/undertake another road user on a roundabout. It fails my risk assessment.

niceonetom

blorg wrote: »

Is this an attempt to summon you-know-who? I only said his name twice, I was careful that way.

Whoever do you mean?

tomasrojo

Incidentally, what is the correct terminology for lanes on a roundabout?

On a dual carriageway, the left-hand lane is sometimes referred to as the inside lane, and the right-hand lane as the outside lane.

I find myself calling the "outer-ring" lane on the roundabout the outside lane, but is that misleading, seeing as it's closer in nature to the dual-carriageway "outside lane"?

This stems from a conversation I had with someone recently where we were at cross purposes because of this terminological confusion.

Lumen

tomasrojo wrote: »

Incidentally, what is the correct terminology for lanes on a roundabout?

1,2,.... numbered from left.

This is how motorway lanes are identified (there are no "slow" and "fast" lanes).

dearg lady

emanresu wrote: »

I agree with previous posters that you were in the right, and the car driver was wrong to squeeze in beside you.

Someone mentioned that maybe you shouldn't have nipped in front of traffic approaching the roundabout, and you should have joined the queue of traffic coming up to the roundabout. However, I understood from your post, that you were already waiting at the roundabout before the car squeezed in beside you there also, and that is the only reason why you nipped in front. So I think you were 100% correct there also.

One thing I have to say about your post; it's confusing when you say:

Going by the rest of your post, he actually went around you on the inside (on your left).
Either way, overtaking in your lane, or undertaking, he would have been wrong anyway. You were entitled to the full width of the lane. A car can't squeeze in beside you in the same lane.

By the way, I'm a car driver, I haven't cycled for years.

PS, This thread also covers the same topic in posts 8, 9 and 10.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055637941

Sorry, I meant on the outside lane of the roundabout, but underatking me. Yeah, it was kind od unfortunate set of circumstances that led to it, as in, I should've had a better road position from the off, will be more careful in future!

tomasrojo

Lumen wrote: »

1,2,.... numbered from left.

This is how motorway lanes are identified (there are no "slow" and "fast" lanes).

That seems very logical.

ednwireland

niceonetom wrote: »

I saw that in dublin 15 a few weeks ago, probably no more that a few km from you. There's no chance that anyone in blanchardstown could not understand a roundabout - we have roughly 3.5 roundabouts per person around here - but we do have a lot of complete bastards. Scared the **** out of me at the time.

sure it didnt have DL plate

topper75

When claiming a lane in a roundabout, I get out of the saddle and swing the frame underneath, as if I were climbing uphill, to make myself as big and visible as possible. It is good to 'advertise' to motorists around you that you are holding the lane.

Also you need to take over the lane beforehand, as you approach the roundabout. It's dangerous to try and do so as you actually arrive there. Good motoring and good cycling both rely on anticipation.

emanresu

dearg lady wrote: »

Sorry, I meant on the outside lane of the roundabout, but undertaking me. ...

You seem to thinking of the roundabout as a circle with the inside lane at the centre of the circle, and the outside lane at the circumference, but it's not like that.
The roadway on the roundabout is the same as any other part of the road, so the left hand lane is still the inside lane and the right hand lane is still the outside lane.

dearg lady

emanresu wrote: »

You seem to thinking of the roundabout as a circle with the inside lane at the centre of the circle, and the outside lane at the circumference, but it's not like that.
The roadway on the roundabout is the same as any other part of the road, so the left hand lane is still the inside lane and the right hand lane is still the outside lane.

Yup, taht's how I was referring to it, sorry for any confusion!

tomasrojo

I had it confused too, and I'm sure other people have the terms mixed up.


Best to use Lumen's formulation above (Lane 1, Lane 2, etc.) and avoid the whole inside/outside terminology.

Bunnyhopper

niceonetom wrote: »

I saw that in dublin 15 a few weeks ago, probably no more that a few km from you. There's no chance that anyone in blanchardstown could not understand a roundabout - we have roughly 3.5 roundabouts per person around here - but we do have a lot of complete bastards. Scared the **** out of me at the time.

I saw the same thing in Blanch a while back. It was at the roundabout beside Next at the shopping centre. The car came from the Snugborough Road side heading into the centre and went the wrong way around the roundabout to turn right into the WestEnd car park.

The point about indicating doesn't just apply in Donegal, I think. It seems to me that a LOT of people don't actually know how to indicate correctly on roundabouts (or just can't be bothered).

As for the OP, I think she was in the right. I take the lane at roundabouts because it's the safest option, and undertaking is just plain wrong.

daymobrew

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

As for the OP, I think she was in the right. I take the lane at roundabouts because it's the safest option, and undertaking is just plain wrong.

I got tailgated and beeped at by a driver in D15 a few years ago when I took the lane. I made a statement to the Gardai at Blanchardstown but they didn't do anything :mad:

niceonetom wrote: »

OP - next time less typy-type, more smashy-smash. That'll learn 'em.

Now, now. While I fully understand the frustration, fear and anger that we have all experienced, please don't be promoting such reactions. I will continue to encourage reporting dangerous or careless driving to the Gardai (though I am finding it hard to say that with the straight face these days (see stats at bottom of the above page)).

dearg lady

daymobrew wrote: »

I got tailgated and beeped at by a driver in D15 a few years ago when I took the lane. I made a statement to the Gardai at Blanchardstown but they didn't do anything :mad: Now, now. While I fully understand the frustration, fear and anger that we have all experienced, please don't be promoting such reactions. I will continue to encourage reporting dangerous or careless driving to the Gardai (though I am finding it hard to say that with the straight face these days (see stats at bottom of the above page)).

I never manage to get car regs, darn it. You're right though, if incidents keep getting reported then hopefully things will improve (albeit slowly)
At the moment cyclists are still secondary road users in the eyes of a lot of motorists, an inconvenience!

SerialComplaint

dearg lady wrote: »

I never manage to get car regs, darn it.

Mobile phone cameras and voice-recorders are great tools for cyclists.