England's insane injury list

thomond2006

Front Row
Sheridan
Mears
Vickery
White

Second Row
Blaze (doubtful)
Shaw (just back from injury for Wasps on the weekend)

Back Row
Rees
Easter
Narraway

Scrum Half
Ellis

Fly Half
Cipriani
Flood
Vesty

Centres
Turner Hall
Flutey
Tindall (doubtful)

Wings
Only area where England are at full strength afaik

Fullback
Armitage
Morgan

That's at least 15 players out.

Any underlying reason for this injury crisis or is it just coincidence?

maherro

Thank god for central contracting. I've read some threads on MF giving out about it but it avoids disasters like this!

twinytwo

does it matter though... even if all the above players were able to play i still see england going 0 and 3... no doubt johnson will use this as an excuse for them losing

maherro

Regardless of the autumn I think from a player management point of view that this represents the absolute failure of the English system in comparison to ours. Where each of our players is only going to play 25 to 30 games a year they have to play around 40 (Im guesstimating here).

Another important point is the way the GP is played - far more contact

PhatPiggins

thomond2006 wrote: »

Any underlying reason for this injury crisis or is it just coincidence?

I think the gym culture and obsession with size in the English system is a big part of the problem. Both in terms of the ever increasing numbers of injuries and their failure to produce decent numbers of creative backs.

The French players play as many if not more games then their english counterparts and suffer only a fraction of the injuries. The French focus on skills and flair certainly produces more rounded players.

For every Mathew Tait there's a dozen Noons,Tindalls,Turner Halls,Hipkiss's etc etc. It seems to be the bigger guys who are more frequently injured.

thomond2006

The likely England XV:

1. Payne
2. Hartley
3. ?
4. Kay/Deacon
5. Borthwick
6. Croft
7. Armitage
8. Haskell
9. Care/Hodgson
10. Wilkinson
11. Monye
12. Geraghty
13. Hipkiss
14. Cueto
15. Foden

twinytwo

thomond2006 wrote: »

The likely England XV:

1. Payne
2. Hartley
3. ?
4. Kay/Deacon
5. Borthwick
6. Croft
7. Armitage
8. Haskell
9. Care/Hodgson
10. Wilkinson
11. Monye
12. Geraghty
13. Hipkiss
14. Cueto
15. Foden

unless jonny blows us away with a massive return to 2003 like form .... all i can say is owned

Chucky the tree

Depending on some of the injuries go I'd expect England to win the 6nations this time around. Barring the front row that's a ridiculously good team for so many injuries.

toomevara

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I think the gym culture and obsession with size in the English system is a big part of the problem.

Totally agree, interesting blog from Shaun Edwards on that very subject;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/oct/30/rugby-union-injuries-skills

Incidentally how relieved must Johnson be that so many players buggered off to France and thus avoided the attritional grind that is the GP?

It aint all gloom for the english though, that backline looks seriously tasty, whether they can get them any decent ball is another matter entirely.....

danthefan

The fact they'll still be able to field a competative team goes to show how badly they're mismanaged imo. England have the players to be one of the top teams in the world again imo, they just won't let them on the pitch. Think back to the 6N and you've Harry Ellis starting ahead of Hodgson and Care, stuff like that. On top of that their treatment of youngsters who come in and don't immediately set the world on fire is dreadful.

Judgement Day

thomond2006 wrote: »

Front Row
Sheridan
Mears
Vickery
White

Second Row
Blaze (doubtful)
Shaw (just back from injury for Wasps on the weekend)

Back Row
Rees
Easter
Narraway

Scrum Half
Ellis

Fly Half
Cipriani
Flood
Vesty

Centres
Turner Hall
Flutey
Tindall (doubtful)

Wings
Only area where England are at full strength afaik

Fullback
Armitage
Morgan

That's at least 15 players out.

Any underlying reason for this injury crisis or is it just coincidence?

But Jonno's back!!
Welcome back to rugby forum Thomond2006!!

Chucky the tree

danthefan wrote: »

The fact they'll still be able to field a competative team goes to show how badly they're mismanaged imo. England have the players to be one of the top teams in the world again imo, they just won't let them on the pitch. Think back to the 6N and you've Harry Ellis starting ahead of Hodgson and Care, stuff like that. On top of that their treatment of youngsters who come in and don't immediately set the world on fire is dreadful.

Disagree here, first instance you say how care should be starting but go on about there poor treatment of youngsters who don't set the world on fire. Most of that is purely down to the English media. This is one of the areas MJ has really impressed me, he's taken the likes of cipriani, care and geragthy and eased them in pretty slowly. I think having Care start the majority of last years 6nations would of been a huge mistake as the pressure he would of been under while having to play in a bad team would of been a lot to handle. If he starts this 6 nations he can at least do it with a top class OH in the team.

thomond2006

Judgement Day wrote: »

Welcome back to rugby forum Thomond2006!!

Thanks, good to be back.

danthefan

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Disagree here, first instance you say how care should be starting but go on about there poor treatment of youngsters who don't set the world on fire. Most of that is purely down to the English media. This is one of the areas MJ has really impressed me, he's taken the likes of cipriani, care and geragthy and eased them in pretty slowly. I think having Care start the majority of last years 6nations would of been a huge mistake as the pressure he would of been under while having to play in a bad team would of been a lot to handle. If he starts this 6 nations he can at least do it with a top class OH in the team.

Cipriani? He went from first choice OH to playing for the Saxons, with Andy Goode coming in. He was completely dumped by Johnson. Ellis wasn't even first choice at his club, smacked of jobs for the boys to me. Does Geraghty have a cap under Johnson? They had the wonderful Noon/Tindall axis going through the 6N anyway.

Amabokke

This has been happening for awhile with the England squad. Instead of implementing proper reconditioning programmes they just plod along with the same setup that is killing their national team selection.

When Martin aka "Le Crunch" Johnson came first on the scene he was all talk about how he was going to change England rugby and that they need one man in charge. After last 6N and the hammering of other teams he wants to blame injuries for the losses.

If you are indeed the man to change Eng rugby then start with a proper reconditioning programme and please don't consult the All Blacks as they just don't know how to do it.

The French, Irish, Saffers hey even the Aussies know how to do reconditioning.

Chucky the tree

danthefan wrote: »

Cipriani? He went from first choice OH to playing for the Saxons, with Andy Goode coming in. He was completely dumped by Johnson. Ellis wasn't even first choice at his club, smacked of jobs for the boys to me. Does Geraghty have a cap under Johnson? They had the wonderful Noon/Tindall axis going through the 6N anyway.

Exactly, ciprani should of never been anywhere close to the international team as he wasn't good enough and MJ was right to hold him back and still is. He's doing what should of been done originally. Care showed against Ireland he lacks experience and discipline, it would have been suicide starting him for the 6 nations when they have a lions scrum half available. Geragthy again wasn't the right choice last year and wasn't ready. In your first post you they don't know how to treat youngster then you seem to be sayign they should of started last years 6nations with a scrum half, OH and 1st centre tandem of Care, Cipriani and Geraghty. Those lads would of been eaten up and spat out if they played in last years 6 nations.

danthefan

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Exactly, ciprani should of never been anywhere close to the international team as he wasn't good enough and MJ was right to hold him back and still is. He's doing what should of been done originally.

As I said in my original post, started then dumped when he didn't set the world on fire. That is not good player management.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Care showed against Ireland he lacks experience and discipline, it would have been suicide starting him for the 6 nations when they have a lions scrum half available.

Ellis is crap, play the Lions card if you like but it's meaningless. He's awful. As for it being suicide to start Care, you make it sound like starting Ellis was somehow successful.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Geragthy again wasn't the right choice last year and wasn't ready. In your first post you they don't know how to treat youngster then you seem to be sayign they should of started last years 6nations with a scrum half, OH and 1st centre tandem of Care, Cipriani and Geraghty. Those lads would of been eaten up and spat out if they played in last years 6 nations.

Actually you brought Geraghty into it. Again your making it sound like their 9/10/12 combo actually worked, it didn't. Care/Cipriani would have been easily as good as Ellis/Goode, both completely average players.

Chucky the tree

danthefan wrote: »

As I said in my original post, started then dumped when he didn't set the world on fire. That is not good player management.



Ellis is crap, play the Lions card if you like but it's meaningless. He's awful. As for it being suicide to start Care, you make it sound like starting Ellis was somehow successful.



Actually you brought Geraghty into it. Again your making it sound like their 9/10/12 combo actually worked, it didn't. Care/Cipriani would have been easily as good as Ellis/Goode, both completely average players.

My point is they are managing there youngster a lot better now then before. You said they've also ha problems handling youngster when they don't set the world on fire straight away so this is why MJ has been taking it easy with them. MJ picked Cipriani under pressure from the media imo, then he had a shocker and was dropped as he clearly isn't ready for international rugby, mistake on MJ part picking him in the first place but one he fixed and seems to be making sure he doesn't do it again by throwing kids in at the deep end when they are not ready. I don't what good picking him for the 6nations would of done. Ellis might not of been successful but at least Care didn't have his confidence badly damaged like Cipriani. My point with geragthy is I think he has handled him very well when I don't think he was ready for international rugby last year, tbh I still think putting him in at 12 is a risk. Last year MJ was happy to right off the 6nations as he knew he wouldn't win it, can't argue with that. No point in drowning a load of your best up and coming players while your at it though.

danthefan

Geraghty and Care both in the 22 this weekend, possibly injury enforced, but has a whole lot changed with them since last March/April?

little173

Yes - Geraghty wasnt really playing for Londonm irish last year so wasnt in the running for 6N, Catt was playing at 10 much of the time. As far a Cipriani goes, he was treated poorly, he was not the same player post injury but his confidence was shot, and also Wasps were very bad last year as well. This England team is very very average, I can see them really struggling in the 6 Nations, you cant just throw a load of players together like this, it takes time to blend a team.

danthefan

Geraghty isn't a 10 anyway, he's in the squad as a centre with Wilko and Goode as the OHs.

little173

He plays 10 for Saints, but accept he is there as a 12 because of Wilko. I am not sure 12 is really the place for him, we will see, Nonu charging down his channel will be interesting, Luke learnt a few lessons about Internaional rugby with that last year.