Shock and Awe - What could have been....

Mr Mole

While reading the Garda Commissioners Guidelines I noted that he quoted the total number of Certificates that had to be dealt with as 240,000. At €80 each, that gives €19200000 over a three year period averaging at €6400000 per annum. Thats quite a lot of revenue, even taking the out sourcing of licensing into account, and the cheapie, decrepid licence that is issued now, :rolleyes: rather than the Credit Card type with photograph and proper details that should issue at that price. We are at least issued with a quality passport, and a reasonable Euro pass.

Just imagine if "they" had the foresight of setting up a proper firearms licensing system with paid employees, even on a temporary three year basis, rather than an overworked Garda Sergeant and Garda in the present FPU. The wages cost would have been insignificant overall. Since it works for Motor Taxation, Fines Office, PSV Licences, Revenue, Passport Office and others, a fine system could have been put in place, and a number of jobs created. Indeed, a competency course of basic safety instruction could have been funded.

Based also on the 240000 applications of nine pages minimum each that have to be examined, (2160000 pages aka a rain forest) there are 657 individual applications per day across the country which is low given that that figure is based on 365 days of work and that District Offices are 9-5 Monday to Friday and that Firearms Licences are not given a priority.

So, how long will it take to have them all decided upon?

Its apparent that whoever decided with or agreed this current strategy / debacle made no thought or assessment, business plan or otherwise, but acted on the traditional knee jerk reaction to a non existant threat.

Further take into account the man hours that are involved, and the number of Garda Officers that are involved in processing applications, doing home security assessments etc. The cost to the public is phenomenal.

I hope, seeing the disaster that exists that "they" see the mess that has been made, acknowledge it, and address it.

Too much "Yes Minister" apparent.

jwshooter

i know for a fact the DOJ wanted one licence for ever shooter . ie the shooter is licenced not the firearm .

the revenue end of it would not hear of it . if you except a rifle licence now with out your on it mod .they will charge another 80 euro to put one onto it .

any one that thinks that this country is not fuxxxd, are in for a big let down .

Grizzly 45

And yet again I have to say this information should be made public knowledge by our shooting organisations and it should be raised in the Dail by either Labour or FG.and I am wondering why it isnt sofar???

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And yet again I have to say this information should be made public knowledge by our shooting organisations and it should be raised in the Dail by either Labour or FG.and I am wondering why it isnt sofar???

Is your posting on boards half duplex Grizzly? You can't read anything else when you're writing

All this stuff was brought up, a Lisnasharragh arrangement was suggested (as in a centralised licensing system) but there was no appetite to revise the legislation to the extent necessary. We all know that OMOL was on top of everyone's agenda and it was pushed very strenuously by the NTSA for one (although others did too) but was rejected (again because of legislative pressures).

The amount of money being taken in and no reciprocal arrangement to invest the money back into the sport (other licences benefitting the licensees being brought up) and this did get some hearing but then a recession intervened .

And yes, it seems that we have to keep strictly to the law but others don't.

Bananaman

Who gives a toss if the moeny got put back into the sport. Seeking a bit from the coffers is the surest way to clam up the revenue side of a discussion.

An efficient licensing system would have been just fine.

We can pay our own way.

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

Who gives a toss if the moeny got put back into the sport. Seeking a bit from the coffers is the surest way to clam up the revenue side of a discussion.

An efficient licensing system would have been just fine.

We can pay our own way.

B'Man

Speak for yourself. As long as people think we take part in and run an elite sport, we lose any chance of a fair hearing.

It's not just about the money, it's about having a broad appeal and being accessible to everyone. Not just the cream of the country: the rich and the thick. :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

rrpc wrote: »

All this stuff was brought up, a Lisnasharragh arrangement was suggested (as in a centralised licensing system) but there was no appetite to revise the legislation to the extent necessary. We all know that OMOL was on top of everyone's agenda and it was pushed very strenuously by the NTSA for one (although others did too) but was rejected (again because of legislative pressures).

Thanks for the history lesson RR....Thats not what I mean or have meant...Let me put it in as simple terms of what should be done by those in power in our shooting organisations....Or better still obviously by the average shooter again.:rolleyes:

Is it possible for somone in our shooting organisations to
[1] contact somone in the Opposition to ask a Dail question off the Minister for Justice..To wit; Would he comment on the NON issuance of FACS on a designated date of Oct 31st 2009 to numerous gun owners in the 26 counties,which technically creates X thousand criminals by default of them being in possesion of unliscensed firearms due to the non functioning of the new liscense system for FACs in Ireland??
2] Would he care to comment on how much Garda manpower and time and overtime has gone into this farsce of harrassing law abiding citizens of this State with unnecessary paperwork,extra security arrangements and personal details,has cost the taxpayer in loss of Garda presence on our streets where armed gangs now rule,and his legislation and lamentable performance as a minister is showing up?
3]Would he care to comment on what security measures An Post is /has introduced for the prevention of extremly confidential data falling into the hands of criminals or subversives;to wit all details of the FAC applicants and payment methods?? It is pointless us building Fort Knoxes in our houses,when they go and hand the information processing over to an organisation that is less than secure or efficent,with no obvious checking of backrounds of their personel who could be associated with criminals or corerced into handing or aquiring this information.
4] Is there now a policy in force from the Garda Comissioner/Min of Justice to obstruct,obfusticate and generally refuse certain individuals liscenses for their big cal handguns on the most spurious grounds,despite the ministers promises of his speech of Nov18th 2008 in the Dail,that all previously liscensed handguns would be liscensed prior to meeting strict citeria.And what exactly this criteria is??As it seems to change district to district??
THAT is what I am on about,not some ancient history.. and I cant understand why the Hell our organisations are just sitting around saying nothing about this slipshoddiness...
Either on their own websites or publically Oh sorry..forgot it will be no doubt aired in the FCP hot air sessions!:rolleyes::rolleyes: Of which nothing,or little will come of use.
Cant make this any clearer.

Mr Mole

Has anyone heard anything from our Shooting Associations, aka "The Silence of the Lambs"? Simple communication and passage of information to members would aid in remove the stress that some shooters are suffering, some for a second time after the last debacle, the Temporary Custody Order. Whether or not something is or is not happening in the background, there is at least a duty to inform membership or affilliates on what is occurring. Likewise An Garda Siochana could have at least posted some information on their website to allay the fears of shooters nationwide.
The system that was proposed is not working. That should be apparent to all and sundry. :mad:

I wholeheartedly agree that dail Questions should be put forward on the whole issue.

rrpc

Mr Flibble wrote: »

Which organisation(s) are you in?

Rather than tell us, tell them :rolleyes:

There seems to be a perceived wisdom that 'everyone reads boards'. They don't. Quite a few people wouldn't either have the time or the inclination to post here.

As for Dail questions; they're not worth the paper they're written on. I'm really surprised that people who have been down the political 'greasy pole' and seen it warts and all should think that somehow a question in the Dail is going to change anything.

People have already personally approached the Minister on the current debacle and his response was reported to be: "It's a matter for the Gardai now"...

So Pontius Pilate is washing his hands. Why you'd expect a hop in the Dail when the main opposition spokesperson is on record here as saying PFO. :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

rrpc wrote: »

Rather than tell us, tell them :rolleyes:

Already have..Would of course help if others could be arsed to do likewise.;)

There seems to be a perceived wisdom that 'everyone reads boards'. They don't. Quite a few people wouldn't either have the time or the inclination to post here.

Indeed,and no one expects them to do so.However ,it is the most informative and up to date source of info for the Irish gunowner.
If we were to wait for the main organisations to update their websites with info on a daily basis or wait for the ISD with info we would be in a sadder state than what we are now.:(

As for Dail questions; they're not worth the paper they're written on. I'm is going to change anything.really surprised that people who have been down the political 'greasy pole' and seen it warts and all should think that somehow a question in the Dail

Maybe not for us,but it should add another nail into the FF coffin on showing up again their incompetance in running a Govt and country.
People are peed off with this lot and the more incompetance that is shown the more money that is shown to be wasted or public resources squanderd on stupidity.The sooner maybe the Irish people will get up off their asses,switch off the TV and get out and demand changes the better.

People have already personally approached the Minister nt debacle and his response was reported to be: "It's a matter for the Gardai now"...

Ah! The generic "people" like the generic "they".Could you be abit more specific as to who these "people" were /are??

So Pontius Pilate is washing his hands. Why you'd expect a hop in the Dail when the main opposition spokesperson is on record here as saying PFO. :rolleyes:

It is no excuse to say " Not my fault".Didnt work too well at Nurenberg in 1946 with a bunch of Nazis claiming following orders,so it wasnt their fault .:(.Nor is it working too well in the Hauge for a bunch of Serb war criminals.
He concived,brought this to life,signed off on it,orderd his minions to execute it.The responsibility rests on his head alone.The Buck has to stop somwhere..
As for the main opposition spokesman..I never considerd him anything than an opportunist of the highest order,two faced as the best Irish politicans are.Now he has shown his colors.Could never see why everyone thought him great after his pathetic performance in debating this legislation in the Dail this Summer.:mad:Never was a Labour fan,but they have done more for us than the other two groups,speaking up for us in the last six months than they have in a decade.So if this gives them sme more muck to throw ...All the better.:mad:

By the by...
One thing that has always puzzled me here on Boards,and with the organisations...Whats with all the negative vibes all the time when somone or a group suggests getting abit tougher in stance??
Why always this softly,softly,"dont worry We will handle it.You dont need to know all the details kiddies.Go out and play now"..And silence ensues.Why for example does no one ever publish a transcript of a FCP meeting??I,and no doubt many others would like to know what is being discussed by whom???If we demand openness and transparency from our Govt,we should have it from our own organisations as a given.

Mr fibble,
What revelance is it to you or anyone else what organisation I belong to???

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

One thing that has always puzzled me here on Boards,and with the organisations...Whats with all the negative vibes all the time when somone or a group suggests getting abit tougher in stance?

Dunno about the NGBs, but when someone suggests getting tougher in stance, I keep flashing back to things like the 2001 NRPAI AGM, the recent meeting in Abbeyleix, all the court cases taken prior to 2004 and the ones afterwards, and then immediately afterwards, I remember how all that got stomped on with a single line tucked away in a miscellaneous section of the 2004 Criminal Justice Bill as an afterthought - and then someone thought some more and turned around and gave our sports the biggest kicking they'd gotten since the founding of the state.

"Getting tougher" is a risky proposition when
(a) no-one ever bothers to check who's running things on our side;
(b) very few outside the rooms ever know what's happening in meetings with the powers that be;
(c) the powers that be have enormous legal powers and resources compared to Joe Public;
(d) Joe Public never seems to actually acquaint him- or herself with what the actual laws, regulations, procedures, groups and people are before looking to stage official protests. People who know what the story is are sadly few and far between.

Grizzly 45

[

quote=Sparks;62789911]Dunno about the NGBs, but when someone suggests getting tougher in stance, I keep flashing back to things like the 2001 NRPAI AGM, the recent meeting in Abbeyleix, all the court cases taken prior to 2004 and the ones afterwards, and then immediately afterwards, I remember how all that got stomped on with a single line tucked away in a miscellaneous section of the 2004 Criminal Justice Bill as an afterthought - and then someone thought some more and turned around and gave our sports the biggest kicking they'd gotten since the founding of the state.

Which all goes to show what happens when diverse groups,individuals,primma donnas and agendas get together,and everyone wants to be big cheifs with me fein agendas,and spend their days infighting,empire building,back stabbing,and selling out each other,or cutting deals.It is a simple task for anyone to steam roll over that lot .:rolleyes:

"Getting tougher" is a risky proposition when
(a) no-one ever bothers to check who's running things on our side;
(b) very few outside the rooms ever know what's happening in meetings with the powers that be;
(c) the powers that be have enormous legal powers and resources compared to Joe Public;
(d) Joe Public never seems to actually acquaint him- or herself with what the actual laws, regulations, procedures, groups and people are before looking to stage official protests. People who know what the story is are sadly few and far between.

[/QUOTE]


To remedy this wouldnt
[a]Be alot more helpful to the unknowing if the "alphabet soup" of shooting organisations out there stopped reproducing or replicating themselves and actually made an effort to inform everyone who they are and what they do??
Very few DO know whats happening outside those meetings,because no one ,singular or groupwise seems to want to inform them what actually happened or was said.Why is this??
[c] How this is revelant to shooting bodies informing their members of matters revelant,openly and promptly is beyond me?
[d]Maybe if the people repersenting JP were more open receptive and informative.People wouldnt have to go off on solo runs or get all het up??

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Which all goes to show what happens when diverse groups,individuals,primma donnas and agendas get together,and everyone wants to be big cheifs with me fein agendas,and spend their days infighting,empire building,back stabbing,and selling out each other,or cutting deals.It is a simple task for anyone to steam roll over that lot .:rolleyes:

Mind you, you just described a lot of Irish history in the abstract, right there!

To remedy this wouldnt
[a]Be alot more helpful to the unknowing if the "alphabet soup" of shooting organisations out there stopped reproducing or replicating themselves and actually made an effort to inform everyone who they are and what they do??

If they did the latter, the former wouldn't be too necessary.

Very few DO know whats happening outside those meetings,because no one ,singular or groupwise seems to want to inform them what actually happened or was said.Why is this??

Can't answer that, I've been saying the same thing since 2000...

[c] How this is revelant to shooting bodies informing their members of matters revelant,openly and promptly is beyond me?

It's not. It's relevant to being able to "get tougher" with the powers that be.

[d]Maybe if the people repersenting JP were more open receptive and informative.People wouldnt have to go off on solo runs or get all het up??

People don't go off on solo runs for reasons that altruistic. Virtually every solo run I've seen in the past decade has been down to personal ego.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Mind you, you just described a lot of Irish history in the abstract, right there!

And we are surprised then that nothing works here???Oi Oi oioi!!!:eek:

.

Can't answer that, I've been saying the same thing since 2000.

Well,maybe we will get an answer to that...somtime:(

]

People don't go off on solo runs for reasons that altruistic. Virtually every solo run I've seen in the past decade has been down to personal ego.

Ego,or just "fedupwiththis"itsis????

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ego,or just "fedupwiththis"itsis????

90-95% of the time, plain Ego. There's been some notable exceptions (like the founding of the NRAI) but they're the exception, sadly.

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Indeed,and no one expects them to do so.However ,it is the most informative and up to date source of info for the Irish gunowner.
If we were to wait for the main organisations to update their websites with info on a daily basis or wait for the ISD with info we would be in a sadder state than what we are now.:(

But it's not. It sometimes is informative, but it mostly contains rumours and unfortunately some innuendo. 70% opinion and 30% fact is how I read it normally.

Maybe not for us,but it should add another nail into the FF coffin on showing up again their incompetance in running a Govt and country.
People are peed off with this lot and the more incompetance that is shown the more money that is shown to be wasted or public resources squanderd on stupidity.The sooner maybe the Irish people will get up off their asses,switch off the TV and get out and demand changes the better.

I doubt very much if the rights of 'gun owners' are going to mobilise the average Joe on the street. In terms of current 'hot' issues we'd be right up there with potholes in Cavan. In fact potholes in Cavan would probably get bigger press. And the piddly few million involved wouldn't pay John O'Donoghues hotel bill. :rolleyes:

Ah! The generic "people" like the generic "they".Could you be abit more specific as to who these "people" were /are??

I know the name of the man, but I don't have his permission to publish it on an internet forum. And I doubt very much if it would be forthcoming, the same way you don't have your name published here and post under a 'handle'. But if you don't believe the question was asked and answered, well please don't be surprised if I stop telling you stuff here.

It is no excuse to say " Not my fault".

Do you think he gives a fiddlers? Anybody asks, be it in public, the Dail or elsewhere and that'll be the answer. The new creed in Government since Bertie took over is: "the buck stops somewhere else"

By the by...
One thing that has always puzzled me here on Boards,and with the organisations...Whats with all the negative vibes all the time when somone or a group suggests getting abit tougher in stance??

I must give you a tour of the firearms acts alongside the tour of the court cases and point out why getting tougher is always a pyrrhic victory. You might win the battle, but the war is always lost.

Why for example does no one ever publish a transcript of a FCP meeting??I,and no doubt many others would like to know what is being discussed by whom???If we demand openness and transparency from our Govt,we should have it from our own organisations as a given.

This has been explained many times and goes something like this: The shooting organisations don't run the FCP, the DoJ does. The particpants in the FCP are about 50/50 shooting organisations and state bodies and the state bodies don't want the minutes published for many reasons, some of which aren't the obvious ones.

But fundamentally speaking, there still seems to be a complete disregard of what the actual functions of the FCP are. It is purely CONSULTATIVE, as it says on the tin. :rolleyes:

You get to speak, but you don't get to make decisions or even get to see what the decision is until it's actually made (the same as everyone else here). Stuff gets decided at a higher level (like the Minister or the Commissioner) and may or may not be communicated before it's released.

On the positive side, problems are reported and usually dealt with: The problem with full bore moderators being restricted when the rifle they are fitted to isn't, being a case in point.

The current rash of refusals will be brought up (and if you've been talking to your NGB about it Grizzly, you already know this) and other problems with the new system that haven't already been brought up (and the change relating to substitutions is another one of these) will also be raised. But this stuff is being done on an ongoing basis anyway.

But what really gets up my nose (and it's not for me personally) is the constant barracking that the people who volunteer their time to do this stuff get. This work is voluntary by people who love their sport enough to actually put a good chunk of their life on hold to take on the problems that affect that sport. They don't get paid, they don't get expenses, they get nothing but abuse when something goes wrong. I know one guy who's said that if he doesn't get a licence refused he may leave the country :eek:.

That's just wrong. I don't care how angry people are, that's no excuse to abuse the people who are doing their best in the face of outright intransigence and disregard for the law. It's been remarked to me many times by people looking in from the outside how downright nasty people can be in this sport and a quick look around this board would bear that out. Hell, just look at the stickies FFS and see how many other fora have the same kinds of warnings.

Sparks often says that the 2% rule is actually lower in shooting because of the age profile of the sport. I'd agree with the further stipulation that the abuse people get puts potential volunteers off it for life.

Bananaman

rrpc wrote: »

You might win the battle, but the war is always lost.

Cheese eating surrender monkey

rrpc wrote: »

But fundamentally speaking, there still seems to be a complete disregard of what the actual functions of the FCP are. It is purely CONSULTATIVE, as it says on the tin.

I have yet to see the FCP do anything but have smoke blown up it's ass.

Then again - look where we are - if they were consulted I suppose thats something.:rolleyes:

B'Man

homerhop

rrpc,
There are also those who go into those positions and once in place lose the run of themselves, they distance themselves from the ordinary shooter, they develop an attitude of "how dare you question my authority".You wouldnt have to jump through as many hoops to get a meeting with Obama as you would with some of our representives. The cliques that form, you vote for me and I will see that you get such and such.
They get more interested how they preceive themselves as being the only ones who can handle situations. They will go to no end and pull so many strokes to keep themselves in their high chair. You dont have to go too far to see this in our sport and as you say yourself, at times all you have to do is look at shooting on boards.

rrpc

homerhop wrote: »

rrpc,
There are also those who go into those positions and once in place lose the run of themselves, they distance themselves from the ordinary shooter, they develop an attitude of "how dare you question my authority".You wouldnt have to jump through as many hoops to get a meeting with Obama as you would with some of our representives. The cliques that form, you vote for me and I will see that you get such and such.

And you don't see that as partly your responsibility? Sometimes, the only person to do a job is the one that wants it and wanting a job is one reason why they shouldn't have it. :rolleyes:

Most of the people I meet or talk to who hold these positions are very approachable, always have their phone on, always take the calls (even when they're abusive) and do their best. Sure, mistakes are made and the ball is dropped, but that's usually a function of trying to fit a quart into a pint pot rather than any ulterior motive. Of course it's always the ulterior motive that's the first accusation made :eek: Some of the ones I've heard are absolutely ludicrous.

They get more interested how they preceive themselves as being the only ones who can handle situations. They will go to no end and pull so many strokes to keep themselves in their high chair. You dont have to go too far to see this in our sport and as you say yourself, at times all you have to do is look at shooting on boards.

If you feel this way, maybe you should step forward yourself. The best committees are made up of experienced and new people in proportion. That way, you don't get the same mistakes made and knowledge isn't lost. A constant turnover with new people coming in on a regular basis is the best balance.

Mr Mole

Posted today.........

____________________________________________________
New!
Just to make all clubs and shooters aware, we have written to the Taoiseach, All Ministers, all TD's
about the current injustice facing a huge number of shooters at the moment, with the refusals and non issuing of Licenses, and we are writing to the Garda Commissioner, the Department of Justice the Garda Ombudsman etc.
We are also pursuing other avenues both as the NASRPC and with the SSAI.
Further communication will follow, and your support will be required.

homerhop

And you don't see that as partly your responsibility?
How do you make that out?

the only person to do a job is the one that wants it and wanting a job is one reason why they shouldn't have it.
Agreed but a position should not be given just because someone wants it, I am sure you have been at meetings like I have where a name has been proposed and the nominee had been reluctant in accepting only to be told go on sure you wont have much to do.

If you feel this way, maybe you should step forward yourself.
I have on and off for over 15 years local level.
I got tired of going to meetings at national level and seeing that certain things that were on the agenda had already been "decided" on. You would sit there and could already tell who were going to be the yes men on issues that would have been a bit heated.

Most of the people I meet or talk to who hold these positions are very approachable, always have their phone on, always take the calls

That might be the case in target shooting.

Bananaman

Mr Mole wrote: »

Posted today.........

I'm sure I have seen this sort of thing done by 'others' before ...... hopefully it will be supported this time

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

Cheese eating surrender monkey

How did you know I liked cheese

I have yet to see the FCP do anything but have smoke blown up it's ass.

If I'm honest, there have been times I've asked the same question of the people involved. Mostly there's no answer because you'd have to have a comparative non-consultative period with as much change taking place to get a fair view. Second guessing where we might be now had it existed in the past is an equally futile exercise.

Could things be worse? Of course they could, there's no doubt that had section 3D(b) and (c) not existed, there would have been the end of pistol shooting in Ireland for good. Many would say it's that way now, but we really have to see how things progress before we write the epitaph and raise the headstone.

A friend likened the legislative position to a pendulum swinging. After 2004, the pendulum swung completely towards the shooting community with pretty much every court case being won by the apellant. The swing started to reverse itself, ironically just after the most emphatic victory in O'Leary v Maher when the infamous Charleton verdict was handed down.

It held at that point like a pendulum at the apex of it's swing and we all held our breaths, but inexorably the movement reversed and one after another, the victories were reversed until the point where the CJ(MP) Bill was published and pretty much everything bar the limited exceptions remained. That the pendulum did not go the full arc of travel in the other direction may be due to the influence of the FCP or the whim of the Minister, we can never know for sure.

Maybe I'm wrong, perhaps things would be better if we had no seat at the table and no formal contact with the DoJ or the Gardai.

Sparks

Some deep pruning carried out on the thread there and off-topic stuff split off. Carry on...