Student who never studied Irish wants to know official line

gaeilgegrinds

Have a student in 1st year, his sister in 2nd year. Only took on the second year class this year. Both are lovely but have both told me they were exempt. Looked into it and found no basis for it. Rang Primary school, they said neither did Irish (they're newcomers) as they were taken out for Irish. They have no exemptions. Mother was into me. Both are very bright. She was reading up about university entries as she wishes for them to go to college here. Should they take up Irish or if not can they head on to university? Have never come across this situation before. All student have an exemption based on learning reasons or coming after age 11 so have no idea where I stand here. Any ideas? Thank you in advance. I anticipate neither would have any difficulty in studying it but need to know the official line.

implausible

I've come across this a few times but in a different form-students coming into first year claiming they never did Irish in national school. Sometimes this was true because the teacher had put them doing something else during Irish, but they weren't actually exempt and ended up having to do the exam.

If the national school presumed they were exempt and they are right, the students need to get that confirmed now. The exam secretary in your school should know the procedure. Often it's just a matter of checking the rules, seeing if the students satisfy the requirements and applying for the exemption.

The other possibility is that the national school got it wrong and they need to get going on their Irish pronto.


" Pupils in the following circumstances may be allowed to substitute any other subject from the list of approved subjects for Irish for the purpose of Rule 21 (1) (a) and (b):-

(a) Pupils whose primary education up to 11 years of age was received in Northern Ireland or outside Ireland;

(b) Pupils who were previously enrolled as recognised pupils in a primary or second-level school who are being re-enrolled after a period spent abroad, provided that at least three years have elapsed since the previous enrolment in the State and the pupil is at least 11 years of age on re-enrolment;

(d) Pupils from abroad, who have no understanding of English, when enrolled, would be required to study one language only, Irish or English."

lauralee28

As part of my post, I deal with sorting out exemptions in first year. I've come across this situation before and anytime I've contacted the DES, they tell me the same thing : unless there is an official DES written exemption/psychological/educational report then the student must do irish.
Unfortunetly in some primary schools, students are taken out for resource during Irish and in some cases that I've seen where a child is disruptive, been allowed to "colour" during irish! They then come into second level and assume they dont have to do Irish!

gaeilgegrinds

Ok so as I thought, they've got to start now. Out of interest, what happens if they refuse? No college? They're both academic, their mother is quite annoyed. I think she should tell the primary school how she feels.

pathway33

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

Ok so as I thought, they've got to start now. Out of interest, what happens if they refuse? No college? They're both academic, their mother is quite annoyed. I think she should tell the primary school how she feels.

They could do some courses in the ITs without Irish. Also for some courses in Trinity you can pass either irish or another language. UL and DCU also offer an alternative to passing Irish for some courses. It all depends what course they want but of course the rules could be different in 5 years. They would be ruling out other courses though if they are not exempt and they choose not to do Irish.

gaeilgegrinds

Both looking to medicine or law so I really think we need to get started on this. Ok, another lunchtime given up to give them a hand. Thanks

ulysses32

Can I ask a really silly question? One of these students is in second year and therefore coasted through the enrolment process, all of first year and only now the issue of exemption is arising???

Sounds like there is a need for tightening up here in terms of enrolment documentation, i.e. the certificate of exemption.

pathway33

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

Both looking to medicine or law so I really think we need to get started on this. Ok, another lunchtime given up to give them a hand. Thanks

AFAIK you can do law or medicine in Trinity without leaving cert Irish as long as you have another language apart from english. They'd really be restricting themselves though because I'd say the NUIs will still require Irish in a few years.

They could go the graduate route into medicine but I'd say it would be easier to get the OD3 in leaving cert irish than do a degree that didn't require Irish and then try and get entry into graduate med.

Only other option is do the degree outside Ireland. Does Northern Ireland require Irish?

best of luck

MathsManiac

From what you say, they are not exempt from Irish from the DES's perspective. This means they must follow a suitable programme of study in Irish in order for the school to count them as recognised pupils (for purposes of teacher allocation and capitation). There is no compulsion to sit an exam (although they would be foolish not to, if they've studied it.)

College is a completely different affair. NUI has a much more relaxed attitude to exemptions. You say they are "newcomers", by which i assume you mean they were not born in Ireland. If they were born outsde the state, they are exempt from the NUI matriculation requirement relating to Irish.

gaeilgebeo

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

Both looking to medicine or law so I really think we need to get started on this. Ok, another lunchtime given up to give them a hand. Thanks

Wow, a 1rst year wanting to do law and a 2nd year knowing they want to do medicine!:rolleyes: They'd better get cracking with the Irish so, even if its just for the very high points they will need for said courses...

gaeilgegrinds

Have never met more motivated students in my life Gaeilgebeo! They're great! Wanted extra work for over the mid-term, handed it all up this morning at half 8, was in since 8 myself and so were they, studying. Such a joy to teach!

gaeilgebeo

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

Have never met more motivated students in my life Gaeilgebeo! They're great! Wanted extra work for over the mid-term, handed it all up this morning at half 8, was in since 8 myself and so were they, studying. Such a joy to teach!

You must be the best Irish teacher in the country! With all your straight A's and being in at 8am to meet your students on the monday after midterm! Well done, you're so dedicated

lauralee28

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

Have never met more motivated students in my life Gaeilgebeo! They're great! Wanted extra work for over the mid-term, handed it all up this morning at half 8, was in since 8 myself and so were they, studying. Such a joy to teach!

At the risk of going ot, do you know the Irish for "blowing one's own trumpet" :rolleyes:which seems to be prevalent in a lot of your posts on this and other threads?!
As for the students, if they are that dedicated and don't have an official exemption, just let them get started with the rest of the class. They shouldn't be long catching up.

gaeilgegrinds

Those students are that dedicated, not many others. I came on looking for advice as I'm finding dealing with that group particularly difficult given all the levels and now this new Irish candidate. I work hard, so do the rest of ye. I have been very upset by the fact I've been seen to be blowing my own trumpet, I am really not like that. I've been left with so many levels and so much work this year and was looking for advice as I know there is a wealth of it here. I'm sorry if I came across as a know it all, I'm so far from it and am so in over my head this year. The reason for all the levels which was brought up in another post is down to the principal, not my doing. I said grades had not slipped but this is as a result of the hard slog me and the other teachers are putting in, not because the students are not impacted on. Honestly I've been really hurt by anyone thinking I know it all, my students are for the most part very weak and probably the reason I come across as so excited over the good ones academically is because I don't often have them. I did the grinds outside of school as I wanted to keep in touch with higher level and yes they all did well but as said in another post they would all have done well anyway as they were good. I have been left upset by some of the comments here as I'm far from confident in my work at the moment, I'm over my head and came here looking for advice. Thanks to those who gave it and to those who feel I am what was said I've tried to apologise.

Toto Wolfcastle

This is all getting a bit too personal. This forum is here to help those with an interest in teaching and lecturing. I'm sure all of us are just trying to do our best for our students and there is nothing wrong with celebrating the good ones.

Now, group hug and back on topic. Thanks.

J.R.

lauralee28 wrote: »

anytime I've contacted the DES, they tell me the same thing : unless there is an official DES written exemption/psychological/educational report then the student must do irish.QUOTE]
_________________________________________________________________________________

In primary school it is not the DES that grant a pupil an exemption from Irish, it's the principal.

In DES Circular 12/96 there is a list of reasons why a pupil may be given an exemption. If the parents request such an exemption and the child meets the criteria specified in the circular then the principal grants the exemption, not the DES.

Often the problem is that parents have never requested an exemption from the primary school.