Why keep the head up ?

Lassard

Hi Folks,

I'm constantly being told to keep my head "up" in class, as if it's
suspended by a chord. This instruction is the same whether we are practicing forms or techniques and as far as I can see, is training a dangerous habit of not tucking & protecting the jaw, throat, eyes...etc

I've noticed other styles favour this neck & head alignment, but to me it just seems dangerous. Am I missing something here?

Lassard (occasionally looks like a meerkat )

Tim_Murphy

Lassard wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I'm constantly being told to keep my head "up" in class, as if it's
suspended by a chord. This instruction is the same whether we are practicing forms or techniques and as far as I can see, is training a dangerous habit of not tucking & protecting the jaw, throat, eyes...etc

I've noticed other styles favour this neck & head alignment, but to me it just seems dangerous. Am I missing something here?

What martial art are you doing?

It is a dangerous thing to do in reality but if your instructor is telling you to do this it would suggest that maybe the style you are doing is more of a fantasy art than a practical one.

Lassard wrote: »

Lassard (occasionally looks like a meerkat )

Have you ever checked out http://www.comparethemeerkat.com ??

Furious-Dave

Lassard wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I'm constantly being told to keep my head "up" in class, as if it's
suspended by a chord. This instruction is the same whether we are practicing forms or techniques and as far as I can see, is training a dangerous habit of not tucking & protecting the jaw, throat, eyes...etc

I've noticed other styles favour this neck & head alignment, but to me it just seems dangerous. Am I missing something here?

Lassard (occasionally looks like a meerkat )

Did you ask your instructor the same question? Perhaps you're being told to keep you head up because you're being overly cautious about protecting targets and keeping it too low?

YamaMotoYama

I have had the same advice and now follow it in Karate.

The whole point of keeping your head up is so that you see whats coming at you next... and then have the opportunity to do someting about it.

If you are dropping your head/closing your eyes then you're going to get nasty surprise sparring sometime down the road. The punch that hurts you most is the one you dont see coming...

hidinginthebush

I've been doing kung fu 2 years now and we're told the same thing. To the best of my knowledge, it is to help your posture, prevents you hunching your shoulders, letting you punch with your body, as opposed to using just your shoulders, generally it lets you keep the posture of the art which I'm doing. Also, we're told that while you keep your head up, you keep your chin in, I can't think of any other way of keeping your chin in without hunching over (though I could be wrong).

columok

Dangerous in reality but in most MAs this doesn't factor in. Instead emphasis is on elongating the neck (with rope coming from centre of head). It's highlights the emphasis of your art being the art itself and not necessarily function. If you' want to prioritise the art- accept that your instructors advice is a function of that art- which is often incompatible with reason. If reason is your priority then be ready to ditch an unreasonable practice.

In any real situation where you are likely to be struck or grappled the chin should be tucked in to avoid knockout and keeping your head strong against clinching.

Scramble

Under pressure totally untrained people seem to quite often default to a hunchbacked stance, shrug up with shoulders and raise their hands up quite high.

If you've sparred a bit or grappled then you find that, as mentioned by Tim and others, this happily protects your chin and makes you harder to choke from behind among other things.

I also came from a classical martial arts background where being straight-backed and keeping the head up was emphasised. In hindsight this was the tip of the iceberg of things which we were taught which were not just probably wrong but were actively the opposite of what is a good idea in a fight or even in training.

Tones69

When ur instructor is saying "keep ur head up", he doesnt mean keep ur head stuck straight up in the air.. A lot of the people put the head down as a reflex especially in sparring (same goes for people closing their eyes when defending against a shot in sparring and bending at the waist as opposed to bending at the knees the way you should), with time and practise that will stop, should never take ur eyes off ur target regardless of what the martial art is

cowzerp

The best at punching and defending against punches are Boxers, and in boxing it is advised to tuck your chin down-keeping your head up makes you way easier to hit, and your chin is wide open to get smacked.. bye bye!

yomchi

Lassard wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I'm constantly being told to keep my head "up" in class, as if it's
suspended by a chord. This instruction is the same whether we are practicing forms or techniques and as far as I can see, is training a dangerous habit of not tucking & protecting the jaw, throat, eyes...etc

I've noticed other styles favour this neck & head alignment, but to me it just seems dangerous. Am I missing something here?

Lassard (occasionally looks like a meerkat )

Sounds like Tai Chi? It's probably a non competive art. If it was competive you'd have lost your head before now :eek:

pearsquasher

A few things come to mind here....

Firstly, as boxing is one-on-one and doesn't involve weapons, grappling or kicking then sure.... keep the head down and the arms up.

That doesn't make too much sense in other contexts where it's more than just protecting the jaw/face you need to worry about. Other things to consider may be things like.... escaping, controling the space around you, assisting your friends, retaining your own weapons, controlling the opponenets ability to use their weapon, observation, breaking balance, feeling out ability, etc.

Secondly, it seems the O.P. is a beginner in their art, and often, as in the art I practice and teach, things like skeletal alignment are very important at a basic level in order to train the whole body. Further down the line it's absolutly fine to go beyond the basics and adapt to situations where ducking the head is the best thing to do and there are plenty of scenarios. techniques, kata, drills what-have-you, where ducking is preferable.

If a student asked me... "How come we don't duck like a boxer"... I'd say "we're not boxing - this is just basics". It'd also be fairly easy to show a couple of contexts where ducking and/or not ducking, are appropriate.

So to the O.P.... ask your teacher.. I doubt it's a hard and fast rule.. just a beginning learning thing.

Doug Cartel

pearsquasher wrote: »

Other things to consider may be things like.... escaping, controling the space around you, assisting your friends, retaining your own weapons, controlling the opponenets ability to use their weapon, observation, breaking balance, feeling out ability, etc.

You should be able to do these things while keeping your head in the correct position, with your chin tucked.

leonkickboxing

I agree with cowzerp.
I come from a kickboxing-boxing background did sanshou and am doing muay-thai now too and MY OPINION is that they are more realistic fighting arts than traditional ones.
Keeping your head up in my experience is going to get you ko`d I do full contact sparing and i know i would be putting my head no the chopping block if i did it.
I went to a TKD class and they told me the exact opposite of what i was always told, keep my hands down because You cant see whats coming (but the hand is quicker than the eye) and dont put my hips into kicks because you lose power and speed??

most arts are a contradiction to each other you just have to find which is better for your abilities

Look at the UFC, machida is a karate guy at the top so Every art is valid its your trainer you have to question so ask him why? if he dose not have a decent answer you know he is a chanser and your waisting your time
only my opinion dudes dont Lynch me

Doug Cartel

Slightly off topic, but there are actually quite a few karate guys in ufc. I guess the difference with Machida is that he fights with a style that *looks* very karate like.

Still though, he tucks his chin. Oh yes.

pearsquasher

A stag fighting another stag keeps its "chin" down during a rutting duel because it knows that the only other adversary at that moment is the stag in front of him with the same size horns trying to do the same thing to it as it's doing to its rival.... i.e... The match is within boundries.

Several arts have been mentioned in this thread.... sansou, kick-boxing, muay thai, competitve karate, MMA...i.e. SPORT arts that involve dueling within boundries too.

In each case.. "chin down" makes sense... I agree.

So-called "traditional arts" aren't dealing with boundry-based assault in general - so you have to allow for times when the chin down thing ain't useful.

I don't think holding a certain fixed stance or pose will cover every eventuality - That seems a little rigid to me.

So fighting the guy who spilled your pint while both your friends form a circle... yeh I'd keep my chin down. (I'd also question my self-respect and motives.)

Dealing with the hoodied scumbag who you found stealing your bicycle but won't go away...... I'd be prepared for worse than a tap in the jaw while I began an exit strategy.

Nothingcompares

Head up like it's on a string for dancing, head tucked in for fighting. simple as.

Zen65

Lassard wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I'm constantly being told to keep my head "up" in class, as if it's
suspended by a chord. This instruction is the same whether we are practicing forms or techniques and as far as I can see, is training a dangerous habit of not tucking & protecting the jaw, throat, eyes...etc
(occasionally looks like a meerkat )

Whether a student should be told to be more "up" or "down" in their head position depends on where their head is at the time. When I teach students I correct the head position so that it is looking forward (not downward) but keeping the chin tucked in to avoid being caught under the jaw with a punch or kick. It is vital that any blow to the head does not cause a whiplash effect... which causes the brain to shut down so the person loses consciousness. Many new students will, when faced with an adversary, lower the head to such a degree that they are no longer able to see what's coming towards them. Others will not execute a block correctly but will avoid the attack by ducking instead, which can leave them vulnerable to a second attack. When teaching, an instructor has to make the student aware of his surroundings until the student is advanced enough to make that judgement for themselves, at which stage they can choose whether to block or duck, rather than being limited by an untrained reaction.

So, fellow MA enthusiasts, it is not for us to second-guess Lassard's instructor, but as others have said, Lassard should ask his instructor to explain the instruction.

Be safe,

Z

Martin25

Keeping you head n chin tucked slightly down, guard up,good balance, relaxed not tense, with excellent footwork is required to have much success and not get knocked out!

whadabouchasir

leonkickboxing wrote: »

I went to a TKD class and they told me the exact opposite of what i was always told, keep my hands down because You cant see whats coming (but the hand is quicker than the eye) and dont put my hips into kicks because you lose power and speed??

In traditional tkd you keep your hands quite low,but in point sparring tkd you keep your chin tucked in and your hands up to your jaw just like in kick-boxing. I also did muay-thai for a while as well as tkd and found that mid-kicks in thai are identical to turning kicks in tkd at lleast the way I was taught both of them.We wre always told to put our hips into kicks in tkd just like in thai.

Doug Cartel

pearsquasher wrote: »

A stag fighting another stag keeps its "chin" down during a rutting duel because it knows that the only other adversary at that moment is the stag in front of him with the same size horns trying to do the same thing to it as it's doing to its rival.... i.e... The match is within boundries.

Several arts have been mentioned in this thread.... sansou, kick-boxing, muay thai, competitve karate, MMA...i.e. SPORT arts that involve dueling within boundries too.

Sweet jesus, so much stupid in so few lines. Stags? Stags!? Do you think maybe they keep their heads down because that's the part of their body they're using as an effin weapon?

That detail aside, how does this analogy translate to the thread subject at all? Are you proposing that if a stag were having its bike stolen by some 'hoodied scumbag', it'd hold its head high and proud, ready to dance the pasodoble as it apprehended the young rapscallion?

I see you've thrown in the street vs sport gambit in there as well. I'm afraid that's just not going to fly. By your comments I'm not convinced you know enough of fighting on the street or in the ring to try and tell us the difference. Here's a hint, they're not the same thing, but the difference is not as big as you think. If you can't put someone down in a controlled environment, you're not going to do any better once the rules are taken away. If you're doing something that's going to get you knocked/choked out straight away in a sports environment, it's going to get you knocked/choked out in a street environment.

I don't think holding a certain fixed stance or pose will cover every eventuality - That seems a little rigid to me.

This part of your post gives me the feeling that you might be talking about something different to what everyone else is discussing. This isn't about whether your lose or rigid, this is about being ready to take a knock.

Dyr

Doug Cartel wrote: »

That detail aside, how does this analogy translate to the thread subject at all? Are you proposing that if a stag were having its bike stolen by some 'hoodied scumbag', it'd hold its head high and proud, ready to dance the pasodoble as it apprehended the young rapscallion?

It depends on whether its was a classically trained ninja stag or one of those sports stags.

leonkickboxing

whadabouchasir wrote: »

In traditional tkd you keep your hands quite low,but in point sparring tkd you keep your chin tucked in and your hands up to your jaw just like in kick-boxing. I also did muay-thai for a while as well as tkd and found that mid-kicks in thai are identical to turning kicks in tkd at least the way I was taught both of them.We wre always told to put our hips into kicks in tkd just like in thai.

Im just giving my opinion, thats what i was told in that! class maybe your trainer is different, But i have looked at alot of TKD vids on youtube and guys always keep hands down and bounce around to throw a big fancy head kick and guys get ko`d because they have no guard:o.

But to add to the topic i think slipping is one of the most under utilized aspects of ma. I have spared with karate tkd and kung fu guys and get hit very rarely and counter strike them very effectively because i slip very well, I think being able to read someone elses attacks is one of the most important things

pearsquasher

Sure I concede that the stag analogy was flawed as pointed out by Doug Certel....but my point was that dueling involves limited boundries.... and sports arts are about dueling. Of course they give you attributes useful in a real altercation... I'm not disputing that.

Niall Keane

Hi Folks,

I'm constantly being told to keep my head "up" in class, as if it's
suspended by a chord. This instruction is the same whether we are practicing forms or techniques and as far as I can see, is training a dangerous habit of not tucking & protecting the jaw, throat, eyes...etc

I've noticed other styles favour this neck & head alignment, but to me it just seems dangerous. Am I missing something here?

My few cents from my own martial background and experience…
The “suspended head top” in Tai Chi Chuan is for agility. Three of the core classics mention this.

You practice exercises such as “fu Yang” to learn how the head can be used as a counter weight to aid in dodging, slipping and weaving. Of course you’d want to be sure of your guard dynamics to employ this. If you think a guard is a stationary blocking pillar held in the same relative position forget it, if you know how to open it up / close it down to entice responses, naturally guarding your most prone areas when advancing or retreating, using the guard as a weapon e.g. washing punches over your head, and using the elbows to skewer your opponents chest area etc. then suspending the head top makes sense. i.e. stretching the space between the heal of the back leg and crown of the head in effect stretches the spine, allowing you to contract and twist more effectively, i.e. to be more agile. This does not preclude the tucking in of the chin when desired, or the use of the shoulders to cover the jaw etc.

Conversely try withdrawing your head like a turtle and holding this position. The spine will be fully contracted, the head a dead weight, see how well you can move? This is rigidity in body and mind. This sickness effects many and prevents them ever learning how to counter fight. You can still fight this way, you’ll be rolling up the tank, and trading, a war of attrition, not an art.
Control of timing, range and angle are the three core skills of a good martial artist. To do any of these effectively requires agility. Only a relaxed and agile body can respond when necessary, can cross the required distance, and can twist and evade to gain superior position.

Maybe this is what your instructor is trying to get at?

pearsquasher

Niall Keane... I agree with where you're coming from and that this maybe the reasoning behind the O.P's instruction.

Another point... "chin down/guard up" assumes that you are already in the fight. From a self-defence perspective, you may not be already in a fight but under sudden atack (as in a mugging)... so you're stance is initally neutral and unguarded when the attack actually happens. Combat-orientated martial arts takes this into account so they often teach movement from an unguarded position. It may of course be movement to a guarded postion, but that may not be feasable. Fluidity is key but where you start from depends on the art you do:
Simplifying it gives us:
- Sports start from a guard
- Non-sports: start from no-guard