Imagine WiMax launch

leoc

It seems that marketing for Imagine's WiMAX service has kicked off over the past couple of weeks, with posters around Dublin and a website. Very few details in text yet, just autoplay video of your new mate Stephen who assures you that WiMAX is deadly. Overall, lots of stress on the new service's wimaxiness. Phase 1 coverage is basically Dublin city and the eastern Kildare/Meath M4 corridor. No pricing yet, beyond "up to 50% cheaper than the price you are currently paying". Pricing is promised for next week. Little about service levels so far either, but there will be phone service. Stephen says something which might or might not mean that fixed WiMAX is available as well as mobile.

watty

A mobile WiMax service with some fixed aerials for rural range is not Fixed WiMax.

About x16 times difference in performance between Mobile and Fixed WiMax, if the spectrum is the same. Also they are using 3.5GHz, which should be for Fixed Services.

My belief is that the orginal Nomadic Ripwave and now Mobile WiMax (same bases and licences or new ones?) is to save install cost compared with Fixed Wireless (which can deliver real broadband performance for all users). Mobile's big advantage is mobility. Otherwise less than 5% of users can get the same experience of users on a fixed Service.

There is a full size billboard in Co. Limerick with Permanet Broadband "fingerboard signs" on one side and Imagine Google WiMax on the other.

It's good to see Ripwave replaced, however I hope that they are not going to simply replace all the Ripwave bases with Mobile WiMax and suggest they they are rolling out the x16 better Fixed WiMax.
Anyway there is a thread on this. This thread was all about DSL and Smart.

clohamon

leoc wrote: »

No pricing yet, beyond "up to 50% cheaper than the price you are currently paying".

It seems odd to ask people to register for a service without telling them how much it will cost, but they do talk about "your current costs of €50" and then talk of being "up to 50% cheaper" as you say, so that would seem to mean a base price of €25.

Advertising appeared on billboards outside Tullamore and Mullingar in the last few days.

RangeR

clohamon wrote: »

It seems odd to ask people to register for a service without telling them how much it will cost, but they do talk about "your current costs of €50" and then talk of being "up to 50% cheaper" as you say, so that would seem to mean a base price of €25.

Advertising appeared on billboards outside Tullamore and Mullingar in the last few days.

Not really hard to imagine. You won't have the €25~ line rental costs.... Hence 50% off.

leoc

watty wrote: »

A mobile WiMax service with some fixed aerials for rural range is not Fixed WiMax.

So I understand. Since Imagine have 88 MHz in Dublin and they're promising the moon ("seriously fast broadband that won't slow down", phone service) I assumed they might be splitting their spectrum. There's no indication of that in this WiMax.com blog post though. But it does contain a fair bit of information, as well as some of the harshest words about the Irish broadband situation I've ever seen. (There's also a press release or two.)

Sponge Bob

leoc wrote: »

There's no indication of that in this WiMax.com blog post though. But it does contain a fair bit of information, as well as some of the harshest words about the Irish broadband situation I've ever seen.

Thta blog is pretty well researched for a Texan effort, fair play . I only have one small quibble.

Dublin is NOT 94th but 87th and yes it is behind Krakow, Ankara, Naples, Nanjing, and Istanbul like they say .

JohnC.

I saw one of those Google Wimax billboards of theirs near Waterford City too.

RoadKillTs

Interesting article from the SBP on the pricing.
Seems reasonable.

Do you think Imagine are going to deliver on this? I'm still a bit skeptical.

bk

Imagine prices seem to be up on their website:

http://www.imagine.ie/wimax-splash/imagine-wimax-broadband.html

1mb / 256kb with phone (no free calls included) €25

RoadKillTs wrote: »

Interesting article from the SBP on the pricing.

Not very accurate article:

While the company will market itself against Eircom’s prices, it will also undercut other operators offering voice and broadband packages. At present, the cheapest package on the market according to telecoms regulator ComReg is from cable operator UPC for €30 per month.

UPC offer 1mb BB / 256kb + phone for €24 already.
http://www.upc.ie/broadband/

And it seems to ignore all the 3G midband services which all seem to cost €20 per month (Meteor has a €17 option).

And Digiweb have a 2mb / 256kbs option for €90 per year (€7.50 per month):
http://www.digiweb.ie/home/broadband/metro/budget/index.html

However having said all that, always good to see more competition in the market.

I just remain unconvinced that wireless can deliver all it promises.

PogMoThoin

bk wrote: »

I just remain unconvinced that wireless can deliver all it promises.

You mean mobile? Fixed wimax can be as good if not better than Dsl

bk

PogMoThoin wrote: »

You mean mobile? Fixed wimax can be as good if not better than Dsl

3G definitely not. I'm also not sure WiMAX will scale to the higher speeds of ADSL2+ and cable.

PogMoThoin

bk wrote: »

3G definitely not. I'm also not sure WiMAX will scale to the higher speeds of ADSL2+ and cable.

ADSL2+ after 5-6km = 1Mbit
Fixed wimax performs much better than this and can give much greater upload

This is mobile wimax, no comparrison to fixed wimax, as its nomadic they can't control contention

watty

Fixed Wireless can deliver a steady 5Mbps, 8Mbps, 10Mbps etc service or even higher, WiMax, DOCSIS, WiDox and others. I have 8Mbps @ 12.5km. DSL is limited beyond 1km and very limited beyond 3km. Only Suburban/Urban, ideally FFTC + VDSL outperforms decent Fixed Wireless. Rural DSL and much Suburban DSL is easily out performed by a decent fixed wireless system.

Mobile Wimax is about 1/16th performance of Fixed in the Same spectrum but performs about x2 better than HSPA with 5 to 8 users streaming and about x4 better than HSPA with 10 to 20 Users streaming.
Mobile has no Contention control (Wimax or HSPA)
Mobile even with one user is x16 worse than DSL @ 1km or x16 worse than Decent fixed wireless, ON average for users.

Even extreme Rural DSL with "Reach" to get 8km or 10km will outperform Mobile or Nomadic WiMax, on Average and much more outperform HSPA.

For a single user in Cell there is almost no difference between 3G/HSDPA and Mobile WiMax. At 10 to 30 users on line, then Though Mobile WiMax is upto 30 times slower, the HSPA is up to 100 slower than for a single user. While single user GSM EDGE speeds are only 240k, it's possible to STILL give 200Kbps even when 10 users are simultaneously using sector (though unlikely if they are selling phone calls).
EDGE and HSDPA/HSPA give phone calls priority, Mobile WiMax doesn't have separate voice. Only VOIP on the data, if permitted.

RoadKillTs

Hi Watty.
so basically it's glorified mobile broadband? Great. Was getting excited for nothing.

RangeR

RoadKillTs wrote: »

Hi Watty.
so basically it's glorified mobile broadband midband? Great. Was getting excited for nothing.

I fixed that for you.

RoadKillTs

I fixed that for you

Thanks

cgarvey

Are Imagine doing both fixed WiMax (presumably to replace Breeze over time) and mobile WiMax? It looks like it from the way they separate the categories on the site. Or, is it just their way of charging you extra if you want to move around (and they restrict your modem to one site)?

Also, not too amused with this "unlimited download" advertising.

Sponge Bob

no, they are doing 'fixed mobile wireless'

Moto only supply 802.11e gear , not 802.11d gear .

watty

Fixed WiMax:
802.16-2004 is often called 802.16d, since that was the working party that developed the standard. It is also frequently referred to as "fixed WiMAX" since it has no support for mobility.

Mobile WiMax:
802.16e-2005, sometimes called 802.16e, is an amendment to 802.16-2004 It has support for mobility so known as "mobile WiMAX".


However ultimately the major difference in Fixed or mobile Performance (x16 approximately), for ANY wireless system:

Mobile or Nomadic uses indoor built in aerial inside the modem, laptop or gadget and by definition is poor gain (<0dB often -2dB), variable unknown polarisation and Omni-Directional. Speed can vary by 175:1 depending on range from Mast/ Signal Level. Even if top speed is 21Mbps, only about 3% of area can get better than 3.5Mbps.

Fixed uses an outdoor, typically chimney mounted directional Aerial of +6dB to +33dB gain and fixed known Polarisation. A true fixed system eschews the higher speeds possible for < 5% of geographic users in favour of giving everyone up to cell edge the same speed. It means a little capacity is wasted, but in reality the improved latency & simplicity is better.

This means to stop Inter-Cell interference, no matter what size the cells are, that a Mobile/Nomadic system absolutely Must have between 50 times and 150 times less speed at the cell edge compared with the exact same technology engineered for Fixed radio Cells.

If you have any number of Mobile/Nomadic Modems on a mast, then you can't apply Fixed Cell system engineering, even if the cell has some Fixed outdoor aerials, the average cell throughput will be about 16 times less than if the Cell was enginnered for Fixed out door Aerials only. This can't be cured by Technology, LTE, or anything. It's the inherent physics and Mathematical penalty of using indoor omnidirectional aerials.

cgarvey

Then the site is confusing as hell.

So they have two 3Mb products. One sold as WiMax, and one as Mobile WiMax. The only differences (€20/mo.) are no phone line and limited cap on the "Mobile" variant, for less? That couldn't be any more confusing if they tried, if so.

watty

Maybe they are updating Breeze to Fixed WiMax?

Alvarion max IBB/Imagine's Breeze
The later/Current Alvarion Fixed Wireless, with "Breezemax" branding is in fact fixed WiMax I think.

http://www.alvarion.com/

You need a low cap on a Mobile product because the capacity is actually really poor.

leoc

watty wrote: »

Maybe they are updating Breeze to Fixed WiMax?

According to Imagine's marketing outreach, Breeze is remaining distinct from WiMAX (though I suppose they could mean .16e when they say "WiMax"). It may be that not everyone gets to stay on Breeze btw.

Time for someone to contact Imagine and see if they'll answer technical questions? I haven't asked them myself because I'm radioilliterate.