Drum sound in my home studio - appreciate any feedback

ZV Yoda

Following on from Trackmixes' post on the on drum samples...

This is me in my 12x12 home set up. I have to mix/track in the same room, so the acoustics are a compromise.

Recorded on an iMac running PT LE via Digi 003 rack hooked up to an Octopre LE via ADAT.

I AB'd the Digi & Octo... Digi was cleaner/more toppy & suited the O/Hs. Everything else had a tad more mid/punch via the Octo so the closed mics go through that.

I have Rode NT5s (matched pair) as overheads through the Digi rack. Mics are more or less recorderman set up (pretty much as we set them they day you were over Dadumtish).

SM57 on the snare. Beyer Opus 88 on 2 rack toms. SM57 on floor tom. AKG D12 6 inches outside kick, SM57 inside kick about 6 inches from beater.

I just got 2 new Opus 88s today & they'll be going on the floor tom & snare.

I’ve used mainly Digi EQ (subtractive mostly). Some Digi compressors, but also T-Racks3. Reverb is Classik Studio reverb…. and good old Massey Tape sat on the kit buss.

Would appreciate any feedback on how to improve the sound.

Thanks

DamagedTrax

kick - the blend of mics is quite good although the click from the 57 seems to be taking over on the heavier hits and there seems to be a touch of proximity effect going on here and there?

snare - quite boingy, compression needs looking at aswell as eqing that boing out. i prefer more bottom mic but you dont mention having one? maybe its possible with the new mics?

overheads - sound quite nice but little dull in the mix and possibly need a touch scooped out of lower mids but really impossible to say 100% with everything else in.

toms - captured well but a bit low end for my tastes and a touch ringy. maybe a gate on them and a bit of eqing of the sweet spot (as trackmix explained in detail on one of my old threads).

i'd also look into mic'ing the hat as it sounds washed out with room in the overheads


overall

levels could do with some attention as the low end is taking over a bit and the room sound is quite loud (is this from CSR room?). also the overheads and snare seem to be at odds with each other, have you got buss compression going on?

dont want to sound too negative but theres no point in me just pointing out the good stuff. overall not a bad sound for tracking. very workable but needs attention in the mix..

ZV Yoda

Cheers DT...

DamagedTrax wrote: »

kick - the blend of mics is quite good although the click from the 57 seems to be taking over on the heavier hits and there seems to be a touch of proximity effect going on here and there..

I’ve probably neglected the kick mics to be honest. I don’t think I’ve repositioned them in the pas 12 mths, so will look at that. The 57 is very "proximity sensitive" so I might need to move it closer to the beater - you're right, it does take over on the heavier hits. That's a great observation Also, the D112 is a bit too woolly. I have a makeshift tunnel over the front of the kick reso hole, but I reckon I need to re-think the mic placement there too.

DamagedTrax wrote: »

snare - quite boingy, compression needs looking at aswell as eqing that boing out. i prefer more bottom mic but you dont mention having one? maybe its possible with the new mics?.

There’s a great crack off the snare on the O/H, but the closed mic sounds boingy. It drives me mad, ‘cos the snare actually sounds great in the room. I think I need to move the close mic further from the head. I’ll play around with placement & 88 vs. 57. I used to have 57s on top & bottom but never used the bottom, so just stopped micing it. I will def look at putting it back in now & try different options between 57/88 on bottom too. Re the compression, what would you suggest?... I used the Digi comp (snare preset) on the closed mic & then a T-RackS comp on the snare buss.

DamagedTrax wrote: »

overheads - sound quite nice but little dull in the mix and possibly need a touch scooped out of lower mids but really impossible to say 100% with everything else in.

I think I might need to listen to the O/Hs on another system – they sound very toppy in my room, so sounds like the limitations of the room acoustics affecting my EQ/mixing there

DamagedTrax wrote: »

toms - captured well but a bit low end for my tastes and a touch ringy. maybe a gate on them and a bit of eqing of the sweet spot (as trackmix explained in detail on one of my old threads).

i'd also look into mic'ing the hat as it sounds washed out with room in the overheads

I’ll have to check out that thread. I like a good thump off the toms, but I think the gate might work. I may fine-tune the heads too. I think the hats may a function of the room acoustics again – they really cut through the mix on my system, so I may be overcompensating with high freq EQ cuts.

DamagedTrax wrote: »

overall

levels could do with some attention as the low end is taking over a bit and the room sound is quite loud (is this from CSR room?). also the overheads and snare seem to be at odds with each other, have you got buss compression going on?

dont want to sound too negative but theres no point in me just pointing out the good stuff. overall not a bad sound for tracking. very workable but needs attention in the mix..

Not sure if the room sound you’re hearing is CSR or the actual room tbh.

I’ll go back & re-mix this & then post a totally raw clip & followed by a processed clip.... would be good to get peoples' feedback on whether I need to focus more on the tracking side or the mixing/processing side.

… and I don’t consider your post to be negative, I’m looking for constructive feedback - not fishing for complements!. If you’d said they sound very professional, I’d know you were talking out your hole

Thanks

DamagedTrax

send me over the multi's if you like and ill send back a protools session using digirack plugins.

might help to have a differant perspective.

madtheory

The kit is too damped for my taste. I think the compressor attacks are too fast, assuming there's a compressor! Try miking the bottom of the snare only? Usually that will reinforce the snare from the overhead, which is the best approach IMO. Also try positioning the overheads WRT snare rather than cymbals. I like the toms sound! The challenge would be to position the mics to get your "eq".

ZV Yoda

DamagedTrax wrote: »

send me over the multi's if you like and ill send back a protools session using digirack plugins.

might help to have a differant perspective.

Cheers… that’s a great offer – thanks!... I’ll take you up on that if you don’t mind I’ll go back & redo some mic positioning, stick an under snare mic & then record a 30 sec raw clip. It’ll be a few days before I get back out to the studio, so I’ll send on that session early next week if that’s OK?

madtheory wrote: »

The kit is too damped for my taste. I think the compressor attacks are too fast, assuming there's a compressor! Try miking the bottom of the snare only? Usually that will reinforce the snare from the overhead, which is the best approach IMO. Also try positioning the overheads WRT snare rather than cymbals. I like the toms sound! The challenge would be to position the mics to get your "eq".

Thanks... Yip, there’s compressors on snare, kick(s), OH buss & kits buss. I was taking the “compress a little bit at each stage” approach which seemed to be the general consensus online when I was trying to figure all of this stuff out.

I’ll def go back & mic the bottom snare head too. Thanks to Dadumtish's advice, the OH mics are already placed relative to the snare… more or less in the Recorderman style ... there’s one mic slightly to the front of the kit pointing directly down at the snare. The other one is out over the floor tom, also pointing at the snare. Both are equidistant from the snare (using a piece of string to measure them). I use the OH placement to get the stero image of the kit & then I pan the close mics relative to thier position in the stereo image by soloing each close mic & A/Bing it relative to the OHs.

There’s no compressor on the toms close mics though. What you hear there is largely the raw drums. I use coated heads which tends to accentuate stick attack while controlling the ringing (I don’t use any physical damping on any drums other than kick). I like the coated heads sound because even though they’re small/fusion size shells (10, 12 & 14”) it gives them a much bigger sound.

Thanks for all the feedback.... keep it coming!

mattfender

Listened to that in HD25's.

I assume there'd be no problem in making the O/H's a bit brighter. Undermic on the snare would give a nicer snap too. Nice bit of body on it already. I like to cut a fair bit of mid from toms...:o Depending on the song id put more clarity on the mic in the kick to give it attack and all. Sounds good anyway! Prob better than I cud do:pac:

i57dwun4yb1pt8

i think you have come along way , its sounds really good compared to the beginnings ( and I know what its like to go through it ;-)

my suggestion - after 2 years of home drum recording and getting it pretty acceptable - use ez drummer or superiour drums -

then over dub real cymbals if you want to make it that bit more rawer sounding .

im using ez at the moment - i use a stock groove then edit it .

the drums all go to multi tracks and are processed then fed to a master drum group

i then record cymbals and hats on top .

its working very well


this will be until i get a full ekit and start playing the stock groorves instead.


the programmes give you a sheen and punch thats just way more easier to use than breaking your hole to get a live drum multi mix right.

i can knock up a full scratch tune in an hour , its so fast to create with .


if you do stick with live drums , then simplify it , just use overs , kick and snare , and eq them to suit to bring out toms etc .

but for what you are doing - I think ez is what you want .

that said , i do like what you are getting now

i find you get more crack in the snare if you back the close mic off and point it parrallel to the head at the rim shot area from an inch above the rim in the usual spot

trackmixstudio

Sounds like the clarity is getting smeared by phase cancellations/flutter echoes.
Do you have any absorption above the kit.
That would really make a huge difference and stop the overheads getting a mash of direct and reflected waves canceling each other out.
Put the wavs online and I will have a look at them if you want.

ZV Yoda

Hi folks... finally got round to doing that 60 second drum recording PT session. I have the session file here now - what's the best way to share it? (80Mb)

This is a work laptop, so not keen on the dropbox thing.

Thanks

DamagedTrax

www.megaupload.com

ZV Yoda

DamagedTrax wrote: »

www.megaupload.com

Cheers for that... I've uploaded the files now. Links are below. There's 10 files altogether... the ptf session itself plus 9 x wav files for each mic (it's a 60 second clip).

I kept it very simple & included 4 individual hits of each drum before playing the full kit. All tracks are completey raw / unprocessed... no EQ, time aligning or anything else. This is exactly how the kit sounds in the room. I moved the inner kick mic (Sm57) closer to the beater to reduce that proximity effect issue. I repositioned the outer kick D112... it's now closer to the reso head. I also added an undersnare SM57.

I didn't move the overheads (NT5s). The 3 toms & snare top are close mic'd with Beyer Opus 88s.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=869IVVNQ
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MV0MU23O
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8U3UOAGT
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PY358O28
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=3NWPWU1E
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=L832ZIG2
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KOA3WMAS
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Q1I3DESK
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=3TIB7C4W
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HV1D0WMJ

Thanks to Damaged Trax & Trackmix for offering to work on these. I'm looking forward to hearing the results. If anybody else wants to have a go at these, then fire away.

Cheers!

trackmixstudio

I don't think megaupload will let a non subscriber download that many files in a short period.
It would be much better if you zip the session folder and upload the single zip file.

EDIT
Scratch that last comment. I got them

ZV Yoda

trackmixstudio wrote: »

I don't think megaupload will let a non subscriber download that many files in a short period.
It would be much better if you zip the session folder and upload the single zip file.

EDIT
Scratch that last comment. I got them

Phew... I originally tried to download the session folder but couldn't seem to do it. The only option I had was to download the individual files.

DamagedTrax

DLing now. thanks

trackmixstudio

Kick is tuned way too high for my liking. No punch really.
Snare is out of phase with the overhead mics so I delayed the overheads to get them in phase. There is not much presence or attack in any of the close mics. Could be old heads or standing waves/flutter echoes or because I am used to hearing API, ISA, DRS pre tracks.
I don't have my ilok with me so I don't have waves ssl or urs csp so instead I mixed the shells with slate samples. Sounds good.
I will have a look at it in the studio during the week and see what I can do with the live shell tracks with all my plugins and proper monitoring.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2133088/yoda%20mix.mp3

ZV Yoda

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Kick is tuned way too high for my liking. No punch really.
Snare is out of phase with the overhead mics so I delayed the overheads to get them in phase. There is not much presence or attack in any of the close mics. Could be old heads or standing waves/flutter echoes or because I am used to hearing API, ISA, DRS pre tracks.
I don't have my ilok with me so I don't have waves ssl or urs csp so instead I mixed the shells with slate samples. Sounds good.
I will have a look at it in the studio during the week and see what I can do with the live shell tracks with all my plugins and proper monitoring.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2133088/yoda%20mix.mp3

Thanks for that... big difference in sound straight away - I love the kick in particular... it's just bigger/fatter & would lift any of our tracks straight away.

My kick batter is actually tuned very low (almost slack)... although I haven't checked the reso head - so that might be tighter. I'll check that out this evening.

I would normally pull the overheads forward (rather than delay them) since my logic would have been the o/h are further from the snare & tom close mics & are already delayed relative to the rest of the kit. Likewise I normally pull the outer kick mic in to align it with the one close to the beater. I purposely didn't do any time aligning so yis would have the raw tracks as recorded.

On the punch from the close mics... yip, the pres & converters you normally use make my 003 rack & Octopre look like toys, so no surprise mine have much less presence. The skins are pretty new, so I don't think it's that. Also, the shell sizes are much smaller than your Sonor (I remember thinking that both times I played on your kit). Mine's a fusion kit with 10, 12 & 14" toms.

Would be great to see what you think if you do get time to run them through your main rig. Also, I only have the std Digi plug-in plus T-Racks, T-Track3, CSR & Massey tape sat, so will be interesting to see what difference your plug-ins make.

Thanks again for doing this - very informative for a home warrior like me!

ZV Yoda

Trackmix, DaDumTish & others got me thinking about sample replacement again. I have Massey's DTM. This allows me to create a midi file from a kick, snare or tom track. I can then use these midi files to trigger samples to augment the existing acoustic drums. It's accurate, but quite basic & requires using extra tracks for the midi files, so can get fairly cumbersome.

I've had a look a Drumagog & I think I'm beginning to see what all the fuss is about. It really seems to make drum augmentation/replacement very easy/intuitive. I’ve downloaded it & plan to make full use of the 2 week demo trial starting this w/e.

I’m not sure from their site if I can demo the whole 4Gb sample library (waiting for them to reply to my email) but can anybody vouch for the out of the box sample library? I’m doing mostly pop/rock type stuff.

Also, if anybody else wants to have a bash at mixing that drum session I posted, I'd welcome any more suggestions on how to improve the drum sound.

Thanks

TelePaul

Sorry but wasnt the beauty of the glyn johns method that is just used 3 mics? Incidentally, I found a great concept album he worked on called White Mansions, anyone hear it?

DamagedTrax

I’m not sure from their site if I can demo the whole 4Gb sample library (waiting for them to reply to my email) but can anybody vouch for the out of the box sample library? I’m doing mostly pop/rock type stuff.

check out andy reilly's kits, some lovely samples in there and they come as .gog filess aswell. http://www.andyreillyproductions.com/

i bought them a while back and they're lovely.

alternativly you can make your own .gog. files by exporting multi level velocity kits from your superior drummer (i think i remember you saying you used superior?)

ill have a mix of your drums up soon, just smothered with flu at the moment and i cant hear anything properly.

pistonsvox

Quick question..

Doin sound for kinda heavy rock band (i think) next weekend..
When micing a kick drum front and back(since I'd imagine this band needs a fast attack buzz), would it be wise to use a 57 in the drum just lying on the dampener if I have no shure beta 91 or senn e901 at hand? Then d112 or beta 52 on outside?

Also at gig last night, sounded like kick drum was mixed that the fast attack mic in the drum had reverb on it and the low end was rolled off in the reverberation process so just the click was effected... was that just my ears playing with me or is that used alot?

ZV Yoda

TelePaul wrote: »

Sorry but wasnt the beauty of the glyn johns method that is just used 3 mics?

True, but you can still use the spot mics to thicken things up & give more options. What I like about it is that it help produce a great stereo image of the kit, minimises phase & works well in small rooms.

DamagedTrax wrote: »

check out andy reilly's kits, some lovely samples in there and they come as .gog filess aswell. http://www.andyreillyproductions.com/

i bought them a while back and they're lovely.

alternativly you can make your own .gog. files by exporting multi level velocity kits from your superior drummer (i think i remember you saying you used superior?)

ill have a mix of your drums up soon, just smothered with flu at the moment and i cant hear anything properly.

Nah, all I have is BFD Lite (it came with PT, but I've never used it). I have the Massey Drum to Midi plug-in. I do have a heap of drum samples (courtesy of a link posted here a while back). I don't have any effective way of using those samples though. Whenever I do use samples to augment the acoustic kit, I generally use the drum sounds in Structure Free.

Hope that's 'flu's clearing up - nasty business.

trackmixstudio

I use aptrigga. It works great. You can randomize or velocity layer up to 6 samples and mix with the original signal. Stays fully "audio" with no need for any midi messing. Highly recommend it and it's only €40
http://www.apulsoft.ch/aptrigga/

ZV Yoda

trackmixstudio wrote: »

I use aptrigga. It works great. You can randomize or velocity layer up to 6 samples and mix with the original signal. Stays fully "audio" with no need for any midi messing. Highly recommend it and it's only €40
http://www.apulsoft.ch/aptrigga/

Thanks for that... had a look at the link... am I right in saying Aptrigga (€35) works in much the same way as Drumagog Basic ($199) but is a trigger only?... no samples provided (as opposed to 4Gb samples & animated GUI in Drumagog?)

Sounds like a cross between DTM & Drumagog... I like the idea of keeping at all in audio - not as cumbsersome as DTM. Hard to go wrong for €35 really. I'll def check out the Aptrigga demo this week & compare to Drumagog. Thanks

ZV Yoda

Tried Drumagog demo last night... it's clever alright, but it didn't really blow me away TBH. I suppose I have to reserve judgement since the demo only comes with 2 very dodgy snare & kick samples... and it doesn't let you use your own wav samples, so it's hard to gauge it really.

Blending kick samples worked well (made me realise how weedy my kick sound is too!). I'd say with better kick samples, it would be great.

I might need to tweak the settings a bit more, but I couldn't get a decent sound off the snare. My original snare sounded better. The Drumagog snares weren't great (just 2 options - rock & techno). As soon as I started to blend the sample, it just weakened the sound. They seemed to be phase aligned, it's just that the snare samples seemed very weedy. I did like that option to trigger white noise though - it subtly helps the snare to stand out a bit more. I read about that but never tried it before. Would I be better off creating a duplicate snare track, (gating it to remove the hihats) and then use the duplicate to trigger Drumagog?

I’m going to try the Aptrigga demo tonight

ZV Yoda

Was trying to load the Aptrigga demo but then realised it's VST... I've read about these wrappers, & was directed to the Fxpansion one - but it's €75. Are there reliable deme/cheap ones I can use to try out Aptrigga?

hexagramer

hey yoda. take a closer look at drumagog. not only can you use your wav files to trigger your own drum hits, but you can load a good few different hits to trigger instead of the one hit (that makes it sound electronic). i used this feature alot. maybe you have the demo version of drumagog, i havent used it in ages now but honestly its not hard to load your own files. i cant tell when ill be installing drumagog again but when i was using it a good while back it was a great feature.

ZV Yoda

hexagramer wrote: »

hey yoda. take a closer look at drumagog. not only can you use your wav files to trigger your own drum hits, but you can load a good few different hits to trigger instead of the one hit (that makes it sound electronic). i used this feature alot. maybe you have the demo version of drumagog, i havent used it in ages now but honestly its not hard to load your own files. i cant tell when ill be installing drumagog again but when i was using it a good while back it was a great feature.

Hiya... yeah, I'm just using the demo version.. trying to decide if it's worth taking the plunge. I know the full version has 4Gb of samples & that I can add other ones pretty easily.

I already have Massey DTM... which I tried out again last night & despite the fact that you have to create a separate midi track to trigger the audio, it works really well. I currently only have Structure Free & Sampletank 2.5L that I can use to provide the drum samples. Neither of them are designed to allow users to create/add their own samples, so I'm a bit limited. There is a workaround for creating your own patches with Structure Free. It's on the AIR User blog so when I get a bit of time, I'll sort that out.

I'm trying to get the demo of Aptrigga to work, but need to get a VST wrapper first. It's never simple...