(Another) DCM question .......

eliwallach · 29-10-2009 10:31am #1

Hi all.

Now that the dust is beginning to settle on DCM '09 and the pain is slowly disappearing from the legs, I have a question I'd really like to get an answer to.

In my training for the marathon I did 17, 18, 20 & 21 miles in the weeks leading up to a three week taper (13 & 10 miles in the two weekends preceeding the marathon). Never in any of these LSRs did I experience cramp of any discription - yeah, the legs did become heavy and the thighs did become a little sore - but nothing that necessitated even a change of pace.

Then come the marathon itself (along with all the tapering, resting, carb-loading) debilitating cramp set in my calves at mile 16 and in my thighs at mile 18. To put the tin-hat on it my head then desserted me. All culminating in me having to walk slowly/contemplate DNF.

How did this happen? I had prepared well and felt great beforehand. The OH reckons that the adrenaline & nerves on the day affected me.
Reading alot of the other race reports - running into major problems around mile 18/19 occurred to others too, and a common thread seems to be a lingering head-cold (a friend of mine reckons I had the swine-flu, but I dunno) which took about 10 days to shake. But as I said I felt strong and confident beforehand.

Sorry if this reads like a moan and that I am looking for excuses. Despite my woes I really loved the experience and would love to put things right for another lash at it.

Racing Flat · 29-10-2009 10:59am

eliwallach wrote: »

In my training for the marathon I did 17, 18, 20 & 21 miles in the weeks leading up to a three week taper (13 & 10 miles in the two weekends preceeding the marathon). Never in any of these LSRs did I experience cramp of any discription - yeah, the legs did become heavy and the thighs did become a little sore - but nothing that necessitated even a change of pace.

Then come the marathon itself (along with all the tapering, resting, carb-loading) debilitating cramp set in my calves at mile 16 and in my thighs at mile 18.

Is it not just because you were going much faster in the marathon (racing) than in the training long runs (training)?

eliwallach · 29-10-2009 11:17am

No, I don't think so.

I did all of my training LSR (rightly or wrongly?) at approx 8:30/mile which was marathon pace for 3:45 finish.

Training:
17.4 miles 2:28.41
18.0 miles 2:36.17
19.5 miles 2:46.30
20.8 miles 3:00.00

Admittedly we were running approx 2 min quicker at 13.1 miles in the marathon

.

Brianderunner · 29-10-2009 11:50am

I have had severe cramping in my fist 3 marathon before last Monday from miles 17 onwards, ruining my times each marathon (DNF, 3'38 and 3'32). Research showed that i must not have been taking on enough water. So this time (last monday) I overdid the water and lucozade sport both before and during. I was drinking 2 full water bottles at every station as well as a club energise. I recieved further lucozade sport from my parents at Milltown just to be sure. All in all i reckon i took on 7/8 litres of fluid during the race. The cramping did not occur this time, there were moments when it felt like it was gonna happen but thankfully they didn't and i finished cramp free in 3'22. I'm aware that hyponatraemia is a risk taking on so much water but i just had to try the copious amounts approach. Its not for everyone but it worked for me.

thebouldwhacker · 29-10-2009 11:55am

Brianderunner wrote: »

i took on 7/8 litres of fluid during the race.

That's a lot, ever try eating a banana? I find them great for crap, mind you that's when cycling.

robinph · 29-10-2009 11:59am

There is a bit more sideways movements in a race than when training as you dodge around people, that may have something to do with it as well.

Speedy44 · 29-10-2009 12:08pm

Yea, happened to me too. I probably had a similar build up to you, lots of trainining, tapering, carbo loading etc.
On reflection I think mine may be due to a combination of going out too fast (although only 3mins/faster than my target time, but I am told this is significant enough to do damage) and not taking on enough fluids ( I think I was only taking a couplew of mouthfuls at each station). It was not until I was forced to walk around 15mls that I started drinking the full bottles (of course then it was too late) and I also didn't take my first get until then.
So, unfortunately, we are left frustrated with no definitive answer, and all we can do is guess as to what went wrong.

Bobby04 · 29-10-2009 12:28pm

I had a very similar race to Eli, but also a very solid build up to the race which included lots of pace milage during LSRs.
So I too am not so much looking for excuses as hoping that some of our fellow runners could help us identify what if anything we did wrong in the training. I am pretty much resigned to the conclusion that in my case I must have went out too fast (what else could the reason be I suppose

) but how can that be since my training performances really seemed to indicate I had it in me. And I was full sure taper and carb loading, as well as fuelling during the race would give me a huge boost. This boost just didn't seem to materialise at all. So much for having confidence in the taper etc.!!
To make a short story long, I guess what I'm really wondering at this stage is if the taper & carb loading didn't kick in and ultimately if that was what slowed me towards the end? I did drink alot during the race too by the way, much more than on any training runs.

kennyb3 · 29-10-2009 12:31pm

Bobby04 wrote: »

I had a very similar race to Eli, but also a very solid build up to the race which included lots of pace milage during LSRs.
So I too am not so much looking for excuses as hoping that some of our fellow runners could help us identify what if anything we did wrong in the training. I am pretty much resigned to the conclusion that in my case I must have went out too fast (what else could the reason be I suppose ) but how can that be since my training performances really seemed to indicate I had it in me. And I was full sure taper and carb loading, as well as fuelling during the race would give me a huge boost. This boost just didn't seem to materialise at all. So much for having confidence in the taper etc.!!
To make a short story long, I guess what I'm really wondering at this stage is if the taper & carb loading didn't kick in and ultimately if that was what slowed me towards the end? I did drink alot during the race too by the way, much more than on any training runs.

perhaps give more details

- last long runs how long and when
- taper, how many miles in comparison to before, and medium runs included?
- PB's at distances and race history
- last races leading up to race
- splits

you have to give all that if you want people to help you

kennyb3 · 29-10-2009 12:35pm

eliwallach wrote: »

No, I don't think so.

I did all of my training LSR (rightly or wrongly?) at approx 8:30/mile which was marathon pace for 3:45 finish.

Training:
17.4 miles 2:28.41
18.0 miles 2:36.17
19.5 miles 2:46.30
20.8 miles 3:00.00

Admittedly we were running approx 2 min quicker at 13.1 miles in the marathon .

if you did the long runs at that pace and ran that on the day and used the same hydration etc i'd be inclined to think it may have been the bug you had. what did your 3 week taper look like mileage wise?

also where your splits even and do you use a hrm at all?

Ciaran_D · 29-10-2009 12:37pm

Did anyone else find that the day was a touch warmer than they expected?
I actually got sunburn on my arms! I find that temperature/humidity affect my form quite a bit.

Wilbury · 29-10-2009 12:37pm

Elliwallach, I am not an expert, but I suspect that some of it could be to do with pacing. A similar thing happened to me, (though not as bad). Is that 2 mins in the bank at half way based on your chip time? I dont know if you have a Garmin, (I know they are not 100% accurate) but you may find that you covered 13.2+ miles covered at that stage which may mean at least 3 mins in the bank, and that could make a big difference. Of course it could also be hydration/glycogen issues as well. Sorry I cant be of any more help, but I will be interested in the replies to this thread.

eliwallach · 29-10-2009 12:52pm

- last long runs how long and when -
19-9-09 19.5 miles
26-9-09 11.6 miles
4-10-09 20.8 miles
10-10-09 13.1 miles
19-10-09 10 miles

- taper, how many miles in comparison to before, and medium runs included?
Week -6: 37.8 miles (3 med runs 5.1, 8.1, 5.1)
Week -5: 34.5 mile (4 med runs 5.1, 5.1 5.1, 7.6)
Week -4: 44.2 miles (4 med runs 5.1, 8.1, 5.1, 5.1)
Week -3: 29.7 miles (3 med runs 5.1, 6.4, 5.1)
Week -2: 13.1 miles (3 med runs 4, 5.1, 4)
Week -1: 18.4 miles (2 med runs 4, 4)

- PB's at distances and race history
5K - 20.12 (Jul 09)
4 mile - 28.21 (Feb 09)
5 mile - 34.35 (Dec 08)
10K - 41.57 (May 09)
10 mile - 1:10.52 (May 09)
Half Marathon - 1:40.20 (Sept 09)

- last races leading up to race
Jul 09 - 5K 20.12
Jul 09 - 7 mile 50.49
Sept 09 - 13.1 mile 1:40.20

- splits
DCM 08 DCM 09
10K 1:00.58 00:51.47
Half 2:03.45 01.50.47
30K 2:56.53 02:38.48
End 04:26.34 04:00.12

Hope you can deduce something from this data avalanche

. Thanks.

Racing Flat · 29-10-2009 1:04pm

In my last marathon I had an issue from reasonably early on (?28k) of one calf almost going into cramp. This made the task at hand significnatly harder, mainly from a mental point of view - it got me woried that it might develop into a full blown cramp whereby I'd be floored and have the first aid people stretching it for me and then hobbling/crawling the last 14k at 15min mile pace rather than 6.50...This meant that my target adjusted mid-race to go at the slowest pace possible and get sub 3, rather than trying to 'attack' at any stage (although may not have been able to do that on proper calves anyway, who knows). But it made me go more conservatively and throughout I worried that it would seriously slow me at some stage. in the end, it was only when I got to 40k that I was fairly sure i'd do it (sub 3) but even then, I was concerned that I could get a massive cramp 10m beforre the finish line and so couldn't fully relax until I was over the line.

Like you, I had never experienced this before, so I wondered what the reason was. Happy with pre-race diet and water/enery take on during race, I reckon it was due to one or a combination of the following:

1. Mini 'injury' mid race
2. Pace
3. Taper

1. I think this because I felt it first when I was at a drinks station - running at 6.50 pace I was trying to catch drinks at that pace and not slow down. However, at one station (it's a very busy marathon), someone stopped dead in front of me forcing me to abruptly change direction - at that point I felt a twinge in the calf and was aware of it on and off from thereon in. perhaps the sudden change in force at the calf set up the mini-cramp and so it stayed there dormantly for the rest of the race?

2. My long runs (probably did 6 or so 20miles or above) were between 7.10 and 7.50 pace, my race pace was 6.50 pace. Perhaps the extra pace was too much for the calf? Perhaps this is a sign the training could have been better? Maybe more specific training / training at race pace was reuired?

3. Perhaps the taper didn't suit me. I did 80%, 60%, 40% mileage in teh preceding 3 weeks. Previously I had been handling the high (for me anyway) mileage well and I just didn't feel right in those last few weeks during sessions - I should have been feeling fresher and fresher every day, if anything the opposite was happening, e.g. 4-5 weeks out I was handling 45mins at 6.15 pace, 10 days before the marathon 2 x 10mins at slightly faster was a real struggle. Of course taper may have been difficult as a consequence of the training beforehand not being optimal (over training perhaps). In any case I think I'd edge more towards a 2 week rather than a 3 week taper next time. I think I might have lost fitness in my taper, which may be why the 6.50 pace was too much for me and so lead to cramping...

Bobby04 · 29-10-2009 1:44pm

kennyb3 wrote: »

perhaps give more details

- last long runs how long and when
- taper, how many miles in comparison to before, and medium runs included?
- PB's at distances and race history
- last races leading up to race
- splits

you have to give all that if you want people to help you

Gladly, I just didn't want to hijack Eli's thread (hope you don't mind me posting Eli)

- last long runs how long and when

6-9-09 22.1m 3:14
13-9-09 14m 2:01
20-9-09 21.6m 3:00
26-9-09 13.1m 1:37
4-10-9 20.6m 2:50
11-10-09 16.3m 2:12
18-10-09 4.4m 41min on antibiotics that week, so stopped short

- taper, how many miles in comparison to before, and medium runs included?

Week finishing 4-Oct was 55miles with the best part of 20 of those miles at race pace or under during 2 big workouts.
Week finishing 11-Oct was 42 miles, with about 14 at or below race pace during 2 big workouts.
Week finishing 18-Oct was 25 miles - bit less than plan but had chest infection coming on, and started on antibiotics. Just 4 quick miles during 1 big workout.
Week before the race was only 11 miles since I only finished the antibiotics on the Monday and thought it wise to rest.

- PB's at distances and race history

Not much of a CV, but of relevence would be;
10K in Apr-09 - 46:30 (from very low base and minimal training)
13.1 in Sep-09 - 1:37 (felt I got the best out of myself that day)
(compared to 48min & 1:52min respectively in 08 if any use)

- last races leading up to race

13.1 in May, Aug and again in Sep.

- splits

10k - 50:02
Half - 1:45:08
30K - 2:30
Finish - 3:40

Racing Flat · 29-10-2009 1:46pm

Ciaran_D wrote: »

Did anyone else find that the day was a touch warmer than they expected?
I actually got sunburn on my arms! I find that temperature/humidity affect my form quite a bit.

While it might have been hot, I think ye were haunted with the weather on the day. I was out running in Dublin the day before and the day after and both days there was a very strong wind, so I think I'd have taken the conditions on the day.

henryporter · 29-10-2009 1:55pm

All very interesting reading, considering that I had exactly the same experience on the day at mile 14 (next marathon I'll be approaching that marker with trepidation!). I was carrying a spot of patellar tendonitis from midway through the taper, so I hope I can attribute the cramping of both quads to having to abruptly stop all running 10 days before the marathon. It does seem to me that there were a lot of other factors that contributed to the early shutdown, namely weather (being unseasonably warm), pace (starting at 12 minute miles and maxing at 8.50 minute miles due to congestion), hydration (I didn't over hydrate before the race itself, but took on water at every stop).

Another factor that might be overlooked is that it appeared to me that once out of Chapelizod the route was uphill ranging from gentle to moderate slopes, at my estimation from mile 8.5/9 to mile 20! with a couple of downhills in between, i.e. there was a lot of climbing. It may be that the cramping caused the climb, rather than the climb causing the cramping. And then of course there was a couple of miles run on concrete, but my misfortune had already occurred by then.

aero2k · 29-10-2009 2:39pm

Racing Flat wrote: »

In my last marathon I had an issue from reasonably early on (?28k) of one calf almost going into cramp.... I reckon it was due to one or a combination of the following:

1. Mini 'injury' mid race
2. Pace
3. Taper

2. My long runs (probably did 6 or so 20miles or above) were between 7.10 and 7.50 pace, my race pace was 6.50 pace.

I was in the same boat last year as regards training, though the 6:50 race pace soon went to 7:50, and even 8:50 once the legs seized up. At the time I blamed my footwear (Asics DS racer) for being too light, but I wore DS trainers this time and they're not much heavier. This year several of my long runs incorporated 6-9 miles @race pace, plus I had about 60% more miles per week (55-60 et peak)

Racing Flat wrote: »

3. Perhaps the taper didn't suit me. I did 80%, 60%, 40% mileage in teh preceding 3 weeks. Previously I had been handling the high (for me anyway) mileage well ... In any case I think I'd edge more towards a 2 week rather than a 3 week taper next time. I think I might have lost fitness in my taper, which may be why the 6.50 pace was too much for me and so lead to cramping...

I think I made this mistake last year too, though I haven't got it well documented - I'm just going on memory. This year I went from 55-60 down to 47 miles 2 weeks before and 27 fairly gentle miles in the preceeding week (though of course if you add in the DCM itself, that would have made a pretty typical week for me in terms of volume and intensity)

kennyb3 · 29-10-2009 3:20pm

Racing Flat wrote: »

While it might have been hot, I think ye were haunted with the weather on the day. I was out running in Dublin the day before and the day after and both days there was a very strong wind, so I think I'd have taken the conditions on the day.

totally agree, was out for run on the morning of it as i couldnt attend and first thing i said to my GF was it was a perfect day for a marathon - great conditions - esp when compared to the wind and rain or those who do foreighn marathons in 20 degrees plus. if you couldnt do it monday 26th in that weather you wouldnt of in any other conditions could imo

kennyb3 · 29-10-2009 3:31pm

eliwallach wrote: »

- last long runs how long and when -
19-9-09 19.5 miles
26-9-09 11.6 miles
4-10-09 20.8 miles
10-10-09 13.1 miles
19-10-09 10 miles

- taper, how many miles in comparison to before, and medium runs included?
Week -6: 37.8 miles (3 med runs 5.1, 8.1, 5.1)
Week -5: 34.5 mile (4 med runs 5.1, 5.1 5.1, 7.6)
Week -4: 44.2 miles (4 med runs 5.1, 8.1, 5.1, 5.1)
Week -3: 29.7 miles (3 med runs 5.1, 6.4, 5.1)
Week -2: 13.1 miles (3 med runs 4, 5.1, 4)
Week -1: 18.4 miles (2 med runs 4, 4)

- PB's at distances and race history
5K - 20.12 (Jul 09)
4 mile - 28.21 (Feb 09)
5 mile - 34.35 (Dec 08)
10K - 41.57 (May 09)
10 mile - 1:10.52 (May 09)
Half Marathon - 1:40.20 (Sept 09)

- last races leading up to race
Jul 09 - 5K 20.12
Jul 09 - 7 mile 50.49
Sept 09 - 13.1 mile 1:40.20

- splits
DCM 08 DCM 09
10K 1:00.58 00:51.47
Half 2:03.45 01.50.47
30K 2:56.53 02:38.48
End 04:26.34 04:00.12

Hope you can deduce something from this data avalanche . Thanks.

Eli, couple of points i hope you dont mind me adding (im no expert though):

1. I would stuggle to do your 42min 10k at present, i d be about 43 mins maybe a bit less but i ran a 1:34:20 half so i would suggest based on this it may be your endurance that is lacking

2. I think your second last week might of killed you a bit, im guessing this was when you were sick. it also seems that during your taper you did alot of them miles stretched out over the week i.e a few everyday - lots of 4's and 5's. personally id be inclined to do a 8 one week and maybe a 7 another (as your medium runs) and just do a samll 2 to 4 the next day, if you get what i mean by that.

3. I just think you must of still been sick/not right on the day TBH, your much better than through half way in 2hours even on a bad day. if you were going through in that based on your half you d have been ready to run a good negative split

personally i think there is a 3:45 or 3:50 at least there for you based on that training and your times. defo get that half time down tho

kennyb3 · 29-10-2009 3:39pm

Bobby04 wrote: »

Gladly, I just didn't want to hijack Eli's thread (hope you don't mind me posting Eli)

- last long runs how long and when

6-9-09 22.1m 3:14
13-9-09 14m 2:01
20-9-09 21.6m 3:00
26-9-09 13.1m 1:37
4-10-9 20.6m 2:50
11-10-09 16.3m 2:12
18-10-09 4.4m 41min on antibiotics that week, so stopped short

- taper, how many miles in comparison to before, and medium runs included?

Week finishing 4-Oct was 55miles with the best part of 20 of those miles at race pace or under during 2 big workouts.
Week finishing 11-Oct was 42 miles, with about 14 at or below race pace during 2 big workouts.
Week finishing 18-Oct was 25 miles - bit less than plan but had chest infection coming on, and started on antibiotics. Just 4 quick miles during 1 big workout.
Week before the race was only 11 miles since I only finished the antibiotics on the Monday and thought it wise to rest.

- PB's at distances and race history

Not much of a CV, but of relevence would be;
10K in Apr-09 - 46:30 (from very low base and minimal training)
13.1 in Sep-09 - 1:37 (felt I got the best out of myself that day)
(compared to 48min & 1:52min respectively in 08 if any use)

- last races leading up to race

13.1 in May, Aug and again in Sep.

- splits

10k - 50:02
Half - 1:45:08
30K - 2:30
Finish - 3:40

what time where you hoping for btw? based on your recent half time you got in and around what id expect give or take 5-10 mins.

there are few people that had quicker half times that ended up not too much quicker than you came in.

also was this your first marathon?

the antibiotics clearly didnt help esp given how close they were to the big day. plus only having done a max of 4 miles or so that week wouldnt help.

eliwallach · 29-10-2009 3:40pm

kennyb3 wrote: »

1. I would stuggle to do your 42min 10k at present, i d be about 43 mins maybe a bit less but i ran a 1:34:20 half so i would suggest based on this it may be your endurance that is lacking

2. I think your second last week might of killed you a bit, im guessing this was when you were sick. it also seems that during your taper you did alot of them miles stretched out over the week i.e a few everyday - lots of 4's and 5's. personally id be inclined to do a 8 one week and maybe a 7 another and just do a samll 2 to 4 the next day, if you get what i mean by that.

3. I just think you must of still been sick/not right on the day TBH, your much better than through half way in 2hours even on a bad day. if you were going through in that based on your half you d have been ready to run a good negative split

personally i think there is a 3:45 or 3:50 at least there for you based on that training and your times. defo get that half time down tho

Thanks for your analysis kennyb.

My 10k PB is more than probably a little skewed as there was a 200ft altitude drop between start and finish (I ran 18:00 for first 3 miles and . . . . . .)

.

Went through half in 1:51 - but that's rather academic now.

Really felt there was a 3:40 in me

.

Thanks again.

PS - followed Hal Higdon (Intermediate I) almost to the letter (ommitted good bit of cross training)

Bobby04 · 29-10-2009 3:44pm

kennyb3 wrote: »

what time where you hoping for btw? based on your recent half time you got in and around what id expect give or take 5-10 mins.

there are few people that had quicker half times that ended up not too much quicker than you came in.

also was this your first marathon?

the antibiotics clearly didnt help esp given how close they were to the big day. plus only having done a max of 4 miles or so that week wouldnt help.

Thanks for the feedback kenny.

Had hoped for sub 3:30, and this was my first marathon. I did 11 miles the week before the race.

kennyb3 · 29-10-2009 3:47pm

Racing Flat wrote: »

2. My long runs (probably did 6 or so 20miles or above) were between 7.10 and 7.50 pace, my race pace was 6.50 pace. Perhaps the extra pace was too much for the calf? Perhaps this is a sign the training could have been better? Maybe more specific training / training at race pace was reuired?

Without going too far off topic id be very interested in your view on long run pace, specifally what way you d organise your long runs given the above race pace.

kennyb3 · 29-10-2009 3:54pm

eliwallach wrote: »

Thanks for your analysis kennyb.

My 10k PB is more than probably a little skewed as there was a 200ft altitude drop between start and finish (I ran 18:00 for first 3 miles and . . . . . .) .

Went through half in 1:51 - but that's rather academic now.

Really felt there was a 3:40 in me .

Thanks again.

PS - followed Hal Higdon (Intermediate I) almost to the letter (ommitted good bit of cross training)

apologies - in work and rushing - picked out the the wrong half way value.

I still think based on yor 5 k time, which was at the start of the program and which id say you d beat now having done all them miles, and your 10k time which would prob still be say 43 or so mins given a flater course, taht there is a 3:45 for you.

I defo think its your endurance therefore.

was the 44 miles your peak. what were weaks -7 and -8 out of interest. I think if you up your mileage a little to just above 40 or so and peaking at 50 you ll get there.

kennyb3 · 29-10-2009 3:56pm

Bobby04 wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback kenny.

Had hoped for sub 3:30, and this was my first marathon. I did 11 miles the week before the race.

sorry missed the 11 miles bit. i wouldnt be overly disappointed with your time tbh, plenty of people with half times approaching 90 mins that did around 3.30 or so. all you have to do is look at the half predictor time by Racing flat to see that. on top of this you had your sickness which meant you probably werent 101% right which you really need to be for 26.2 miles

Husavik · 29-10-2009 8:52pm

I'm no expert - Ive only done one mara (3.28 last Monday) but I'd offer the following points.

1. According to your diary you did mile one and two in around 7.50/mile (because of pacer). Next year I'd stick to your own time devices. The fact that you felt fresh even by mile 15 suggests the fast start was OK but you never know?

2. Halfway in two minutes up. Again it's marginal but as a better runner than I said, 3 mins up can be enough to do the damage.

3. The breakfast was toast and a bit of jam. Next year try something more wholesome like soft fruits followed by porridge. No tea. Have a soft banana 15 mins before kick off.

4. What food did you eat/drink during the race? Unless you have done loads of long runs - to train your body to work on fat along with carbs - you will 'bonk' round mile 20. I wonder was it the lack of carbs in your system and you thought it was something else.

That said your target of 3.45 seemed realistic. At least you did not make my mistake and think I was on for a 3.20 based on this McMillan predictor thing. Maybe you just had bad luck this year. It could be any of us next time.

(Another) DCM question .......

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