The Silly Soup of Redundant National Secondary Roads

Sponge Bob

[Mod]Following on from the discussion which was developing on the N62 Thurles Bypass thread, here's a place to discuss the merits of having many national secondary roads as opposed to regional roads.[/Mod]

aka Why are we talking about a 'National Road Bypass of Thurles' a town of no national significance whatsoever and which is located between absolutely nowhere and precisely nowhere of national sigificance and with a motorway nearby.

***

101sean wrote: »

not helped by the Irish attitude to parking!

That is it in a nutshell. Half of all the tailbacks in Loughrea over the years could have been eliminated by making the locals park properly , narrow and all as Loughrea was .

There are too many national roads in Ireland for its size . As motorways are built priority should be given to linking main towns by improving routes like the N75 to to the M8 and RETIRING grotty N roads like the N62 to the obscure regional state they deserve.

That will require improvements towards motorways not in parallel to them I agree.

The only orbital crosslink I would would retain is the N52/N51/N80 . East Munster and Leinster are now well endowed with Motorways and overly endowed with substandard secondary N roads.

At least they are downgrading the N80 from Moate to Tullamore as surplus to requirements .

More of this please . The N81 from Tallaght to Tullow should go the minute the N9 is finished to Carlow as should the N78 when the M9 reaches Kilkenny.

I can tolerate a bypass of Athy and a bypass of Tullow being chucked in to sweeten the pot if they go ( and Tullow is many years ahead of Thurles in its studies ) , maybe a bypass of Thurles will hasten the permanent retirement of the N62.

If so good , I will certainly consider such a deal

Zoney

SpongeBob:

It's fairly intrinsic to the way our primary routes/motorways are laid out (radial/parallel from Dublin) that secondary routes between them are needed - and more than just the N52/N80 etc. (although I entirely agree that those should get special treatment as the more important ones).

Also there is the aspect of the secondary N routes existing so that traffic uses them rather than random R/local roads (the R roads are really a more generic category than even the minor secondary N roads - even though e.g. urban R roads may be far busier).

I think it makes sense to have the secondary N roads as a classification even where the routes aren't getting much attention.

Sponge Bob

Once we have motorways and a good radial linkeage from one to the other such as the N52/N80 we no longer need these virtually parallel routes such as the N78 via Athy .

We are only codding ourselves . If there is a Gort - Athenry - Ballinasloe Motorway the N66 from Gort to Loughrea becomes a 'luxury' we cannot afford ...and much of it is bloody dire which means we should not encourage traffic onto it.

The poor bloody tourists may think that as a national road it is up to some decent standard and could die for that mistake.

Lots of Irish secondary roads are crap and are no better than nearby R roads in the main ...sometimes worse.

For example I never travel Headford - Ballinrobe N84 because the superior R334 via the Neale is a much better straighter and quieter road in the main.

So let them sink back into the R Road mire where they belong from now on . When we have a decent national road network ( not in my lifetime even with lots of secondaries gone ) we can figure these poxy R roads out

Tech3

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We are only codding ourselves . If there is a Gort - Athenry - Ballinasloe Motorway the N66 from Gort to Loughrea becomes a 'luxury' we cannot afford ...and much of it is bloody dire which means we should not encourage traffic onto it.

I think the N66 from Gort to Loughrea is one of the better standard secondary routes in the country. I've driven it a few times and I much prefer it over others I've driven.

For example I never travel Headford - Ballinrobe N84 because the superior R334 via the Neale is a much better straighter and quieter road in the main.

I couldn't agree more there. 3rd world road infrastructure at it's finest maybe pipped to the top by the N56 which on it's day can be marvelously awful.

Sorry for going OT.

Sponge Bob

I also think that with long routes like the N56 and N59 the only N bit should be Galway - Clifden and Ballina - Bellacorrick along with Letterkenny - Letterfad and Donegal - Killybegs. Same with the N67 from Ballyvaughan to about Kilrush. Abolish.

The rest is not national in any sense and never will be FFS

How you find that ancient bridge east of Kilchreest on the N66 fit for a national road I will never know Tech2 . It is bloody lethal .

Thurles needs a bypass on a Tipp level, not a national level . Nationally it should not even be on the radar .

Zoney

Spongebob:

I agree a review of secondary roads is needed - particularly in light of the motorways - for example of the N66 is indeed relevant, due to the route of the M18 in particular being east of the current N18. (Perhaps though the current N6 should become N65 from where the N65 currently joins, to the M18). Thurles doesn't need two secondary routes off the M8 - one should be an R road (if anything). There nevertheless appear only to be a couple of superfluous secondary links in general.

I would be wary of modifications to the midlands secondary routes - they provide a lot of necessary links even with the motorways. You could perhaps consolidate them with better arranged routes, but these better routes (in between existing links to serve traffic flows of both) don't exist, and wouldn't necessarily serve towns along existing secondary routes. However, a review could perhaps make use of better sections of R roads if some exist that would realign secondary routes more usefully - as you say many R roads are now better quality.

The Word Is Bor

Can't agree on the N66 Gort-Loughrea being a good standard National Secondary. It's got one or two straight sections that permit some over-taking but the ride quality is very bad, some very bad bends/bridges. It's a regional road at best.

But I would be in agreement with a lot of what Sponge Bob says about our National Secondary roads. Look at the N65/67/85 in Clare, the N66/84 in Galway and the N70/71 in Kerry as prime examples. All tourist routes I know but still they are regional roads at best.

Sponge Bob

I would abolish the N65 as well as the N66.

These, like the N62, are not nationally significant and only carry 5000 vehicles a day at most , many only 3000. They are regional roads .

I would have a spoke system to concentrate R roads onto N roads onto Motorways and yes I would have an Atlantic Road Corridor to move traffic north south between spokes .

I would operate a principle that nobody should be more than 50km from a National Road unless they live on an island or in a town of over 10,000 people.

The Ring of Kerry is not a national road either , Gahhh. The only decent town is Caherciveen , terminate the N road there from Killorglin. Dingle can keep its national road too.





Then fix the bloody spokes up by all means .

medoc

Sponge Bob wrote: »

There are too many national roads in Ireland for its size . As motorways are built priority should be given to linking main towns by improving routes like the N75 to to the M8 and RETIRING grotty N roads like the N62 to the obscure regional state they deserve.

That will require improvements towards motorways not in parallel to them I agree.

The only orbital crosslink I would would retain is the N52/N51/N80 . East Munster and Leinster are now well endowed with Motorways and overly endowed with substandard secondary N roads.

At least they are downgrading the N80 from Moate to Tullamore as surplus to requirements .

More of this please . The N81 from Tallaght to Tullow should go the minute the N9 is finished to Carlow as should the N78 when the M9 reaches Kilkenny.

There is definatly a need for a review of all National secondry routes after the opening of the Inter urbans to see which are needed or not and their condition. Also why the N82 exists is a mystery especially after the completion of the M50.

I'd be inclined to leave the N62 as a secondy route. While it parallels the M8 on part of the way its still a more direct connection through Athlone from the north west and people might want to avoid the toll on the M7/M8. It would require a good bit of investment including a bypass of Birr, Roscrea as well as Thurles

The Word Is Bor

Perhaps with the Regional Roads coming under auspices of the NRA there might be a rationalisation of these roads along with the National Secondaries. Although you can already hear the clamour from deepest darkest Ballymacgash "dey tuk our rods!".

Tech3

Would it not be a good idea to leave the N61, N62 and N52 alone? As it stands for Limerick/Kerry traffic travelling north to Sligo/Donegal region on a chronic weekend for Galway city traffic(which can be very often with various events) would the above route be a lot better than the M18/N18/N17/N4?

Sponge Bob

If de teeshock will stand over the demotion of de n80 .....what is the problem .

But the principles must be simple, published and consulted upon .

Ideally it should occur quickly because most significant mapping in Ireland will be largely frozen after the end of 2010 when the MIUs are finished .

I would leave a spoke N61 from Roscommon to Athlone . Connect to Motorway from county town, from Roscommon to christ knows where in Mayo it is not a bad regional road by regional road standards right now.

Limerick to Donegal avoiding races and obsessed with following N roads, via Mullingar is fine.

medoc

tech2 wrote: »

Would it not be a good idea to leave the N61, N62 and N52 alone? As it stands for Limerick/Kerry traffic travelling north to Sligo/Donegal region on a chronic weekend for Galway city traffic(which can be very often with various events) would the above route be a lot better than the M18/N18/N17/N4?

The N52 from Birr to Nenagh is a particulary poor section near Borrisokane. It should be downgraded and the NE to SW traffic sent to Roscrea and onto the M7.

Carawaystick

Sponge Bob wrote: »

[Mod]Following on from the discussion which was developing on the N62 Thurles Bypass thread, here's a place to discuss the merits of having many national secondary roads as opposed to regional roads.[/Mod]


There are too many national roads in Ireland for its size . As motorways are built priority should be given to linking main towns by improving routes like the N75 to to the M8 and RETIRING grotty N roads like the N62 to the obscure regional state they deserve.

That will require improvements towards motorways not in parallel to them I agree.

How do you get from Athlone to Cork?
Or from Roscommon or Longford to Roscrea, Birr or Thurles?


What's all this talk of standards of various roads? the N20 is as bad as any poor N>50 road, especially south of Buttevant.

There are parts of the country with no national route serving reasonable towns with fairly obvious links. Gorey, Arklow and Wicklow should have some link to Carlow, south of the WIcklow mountain main massif.

If you look at the space from Cavan to Sligo and Cavan east to the N2, there's a huge space there with no N roads due to partition.

Or the area between Drogheda and Dublin needs a decent east west route, south of the Boyne.

What would you do about the N58?

The other thing is to remember local needs may warrant a good standard of road, especially places with lots of agriculture. There might be no campaigns any more around Carlow or Mallow, but there are local industries and agricultural areas where a narrow s2 would cause loads of congestion, because of no overtaking opportunities.

Danno

Geez lads, yea sound like them boyos in the 1960s that wanted to close all the rail lines.

Sponge Bob

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do you get from Athlone to Cork?
Or from Roscommon or Longford to Roscrea, Birr or Thurles?

Who cares about Roscommon - Roscrea any more than they care about Gort - Tulsk .

These are regional movements . No national significance .

There is an e-w N Road proposal between Dundalk and Sligo with which I do agree but it can go via Enniskillen .

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Who cares about Roscommon - Roscrea any more than they care about Gort - Tulsk .

These are regional movements . No national significance .

Does the fact that many are inter-regional roads not lend them a national significance though?

Tech3

Sponge Bob wrote: »

There is an e-w N Road proposal between Dundalk and Sligo with which I do agree but it can go via Enniskillen .

Sure the N16 is probably 10 times worse than the N66, might as well make that redundant too.

medoc

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do you get from Athlone to Cork?
Or from Roscommon or Longford to Roscrea, Birr or Thurles?


What's all this talk of standards of various roads? the N20 is as bad as any poor N>50 road, especially south of Buttevant.

There are parts of the country with no national route serving reasonable towns with fairly obvious links. Gorey, Arklow and Wicklow should have some link to Carlow, south of the WIcklow mountain main massif.

If you look at the space from Cavan to Sligo and Cavan east to the N2, there's a huge space there with no N roads due to partition.

Or the area between Drogheda and Dublin needs a decent east west route, south of the Boyne.

What would you do about the N58?

The other thing is to remember local needs may warrant a good standard of road, especially places with lots of agriculture. There might be no campaigns any more around Carlow or Mallow, but there are local industries and agricultural areas where a narrow s2 would cause loads of congestion, because of no overtaking opportunities.

Not every town has to be connected with every other town by national routes. Some review of these routes should be undertaken and where a duplication occurs or a better route can be found. National routes should be for longer distance travel eg North to south etc.

Sponge Bob

Furet wrote: »

Does the fact that many are inter-regional roads not lend them a national significance though?

Ahhhh , I was wondering if anyone would spot that .

The midlands have no one big town. The capital is Mullingar / Tullamore / Athlone/ Portlaoise

So the M6 / N52 / N51 / N80 connects them all and also connects them to other regional centres like Galway Cork Limerick and even Dublin . They also cross connect to Dundalk Carlow Wexford Drogheda.

marmurr1916

Zoney wrote: »

SpongeBob:

It's fairly intrinsic to the way our primary routes/motorways are laid out (radial/parallel from Dublin) that secondary routes between them are needed - and more than just the N52/N80 etc. (although I entirely agree that those should get special treatment as the more important ones).

Also there is the aspect of the secondary N routes existing so that traffic uses them rather than random R/local roads (the R roads are really a more generic category than even the minor secondary N roads - even though e.g. urban R roads may be far busier).

I think it makes sense to have the secondary N roads as a classification even where the routes aren't getting much attention.

Indeed. There are several sub-types of national secondary routes.

1. Major linking routes: these include the N80 (connects the south-east to the midlands), the N52 (connects north-east with midlands and south-west), the N61 and N62 (both connect south with midlands and north-west), the N55 and so on.

2. 'Tourist routes': examples include the the N56 (Donegal), the N59 (Sligo to Galway via Mayo/Galway coasts and Clifden), the N67 (Clare), the N70 (most of Ring of Kerry), the N71 (West Cork route) and the N86 (Tralee to Dingle)

3. Short connection routes: shorter routes that connect smaller towns to national primary routes or connect two national routes (eg: N75 connecting Thurles to M8, section of N60 between Castlebar and Claremorris connecting N17 and N5, N77 connecting Kilkenny to N8, N74 between Tipp town and Cashel, connecting N24 and M8)

4. 'Super' R-roads: roads that perform the function that Zoney outlines above: they're designated as national secondary routes to encourage traffic to use them instead of Regional roads.

5. Pointless National Secondary routes: the N83 from Tuam to near Knock Airport via Dunmore and Ballyhaunis (why?), the N84 from Galway to Castlebar via Headford, the N81, the N82, the N87 (at least since the re-building of Aghalane Bridge on the N3/A505).

I suspect that most of the first set of N8x routes (apart from the N80 itself) were designated as such for parish pump reasons.

The N85 and N86 were originally regional roads which were re-designated as national secondary routes because they linked important tourist destinations to the national primary network.

The N87 was re-designated from regional roads because of the gap in the N3/A505 route between Cavan and Enniskillen, a gap caused by Aghalane Bridge being blown up at the border.

Sponge Bob

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The N87 was re-designated from regional roads because of the gap in the N3/A505 route between Cavan and Enniskillen, a gap caused by the IRA blowing up Aghalane Bridge at the border.

Which link was repaired 10 years ago , the N3 Bridge reopened in April 1999.

And still we have the N87 , Nationally redundant for over 10 years , FFS

The N83 is the old T road between Galway and Sligo which main route was sent off via Claremorris about 35 years ago as the N17 .

ardmacha

The N87 was re-designated from regional roads because of the gap in the N3/A505 route between Cavan and Enniskillen, a gap caused by the IRA blowing up Aghalane Bridge at the border.

The IRA didn't blow up Aghalane bridge, but the N87 is probably now redundant and a review of N routes would be useful.

marmurr1916

ardmacha wrote: »

The IRA didn't blow up Aghalane bridge, but the N87 is probably now redundant and a review of N routes would be useful.

Well, even if the British blew it up, it was blown up.

A review of National routes would definitely be useful once the improvements under way are finished.

For example, the section of the N18 (N64 before re-classification) between Oranmore and Claregalway will be effectively made redundant (and isolated from the rest of the route) by the completion of the Gort-Tuam scheme.

The N77 will also end at a junction with a regional road when the M8 is completed (unless the existing N8 between Durrow and Portlaoise is re-designated as N77), instead of providing a link between Kilkenny and that route.

A large section of the N78 will also be made redundant by the opening of the link road between Athy and the M9.

That's apart from the fact that the N78 seems to be a fairly pointless National Secondary route, since it links Kilkenny to Dublin via the M9/M7/N7.

Surely the N10/M9/M7/N7 route between Kilkenny and Dublin is all that's needed?

The section of the N52 between Ardee and junction 16 of the M1 outside Dundalk is also largely redundant.

The alternative N33/M1 route between Ardee and junction 16/M1 is of a far higher standard and is only about 6km longer.

Other fairly pointless National Secondary routes include the N66, N81, N82, N83 and the N84.

Sponge Bob

marmurr1916 wrote: »

As for the N51, it would be much better to build a new road between the existing N52 and N51 routes (i.e north of the existing N51, south of the existing N52) from Delvin eastwards, combined with improving the N52 from Mullingar to Delvin.

That way, you'd have one good route connecting Mullingar to Navan, Drogheda and Dundalk.

Good point , maybe extend the N33 west and retire the N52 and N51 in its favour north of Delvin .

The N52 Ardee - Dundalk is certainly surplus to requirements right now...on a national scale .

marmurr1916

biffoman wrote: »

i hear that the n80 from Tullamore to Clara is to be downgraded to an r road fairly soon.this will lose priority for future upgrading.

That's the type of rationalisation of the National road systems that's needed.

The section of the N80 between Tullamore and the M6 via Clara is going to be surplus to requirements once the N52 between Tullamore and the M6 is upgraded.

Tullamore to junction 6 of the M6 (near Moate), via Clara, using the N80, is about 20km.

Tullamore to junction 6 of the M6 (near Moate), using the N52 to junction 5 of the M6, then continuing to junction 6, is about 27km.

Lopping off 20km here and 16km there (the distance between Ardee and junction 16 of the M1 for example - see above), when these sections are made redundant by better quality alternative routes, would shorten the National Secondary network by a reasonably significant percentage (to end 2007, it was 2,684km) when added together.

Downgrading 10% or more of the NS network to regional roads would free the NRA to concentrate on the rest of the network.

nordydan

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The section of the N52 between Ardee and junction 16 of the M1 outside Dundalk is also largely redundant.

The alternative N33/M1 route between Ardee and junction 16/M1 is of a far higher standard and is only about 6km longer.

If you drive up the M1, Derry is signposted from J14 (N32-N2). If you go about 15km up the road, at J16 Mullingar is now signed. This is erroneous, and just goes to show why the N52 between Dundalk and Ardee should be declassified.

nordydan

marmurr1916 wrote: »

As for the N51, it would be much better to build a new road between the existing N52 and N51 routes (i.e north of the existing N51, south of the existing N52) from Delvin eastwards, combined with improving the N52 from Mullingar to Delvin.

That way, you'd have one good route connecting Mullingar to Navan, Drogheda and Dundalk.

It also avoids the problems of upgrading the N51 along the River Boyne between Drogheda and Navan.

I would:

-Downgrade the N52 between Delvin and Dundalk to R status
-Upgrade the N52 between Mullingar and Delvin (2+2, online and offline), large bypass south of Delvin, with link road to current N52 serving Clonmellon/Kells. Renumber as N51
-Upgrade the N51 from Delvin to Drogheda (2+2, online and offline). The Navan Bypass is nearly done. Bypass of Athboy and a wide realignment between Slane and Drogheda to avoid Boyne
-Renumber the N52 between Mullingar and the M6 as the N51 (N52 is Nenagh to M6 at Kilbeggan only)
-2+2 Sallins-Dunshauglin-Ashbourne
-Scrap the DOOR

Sponge Bob

nordydan wrote: »

-Scrap the DOOR

Very good , the door is only an excuse to do nothing until 2030 .

medoc

Following on from a suggestion about the N51/N52 is the N62 Thurles thread myidea is,

Downgarde the N52 from Birr to Borrisokane and route the N52 traffic to Roscrea and onto the M7, down grade the N52 north of Ardee and use the N33 onto the M1. Along term aim could be to re number the N52 as N33 after improvements are made to some sections (2+2 where possible), which would provide a Primary route from Northern Ireland to the South West. After the M20 is constructed it could be an alternative route to Cork from Belfast avoiding Dublin and the M50.

As regards other downgrades I think;

N80 North of Tullamore (awaiting Minesterial approval as of now)
N82 Its whole length
N81 Whole length
Possibly the N78 from Athy to the N77 junction

Possible upgrades;

Extend the N77 along the old N8 to Portlaoise or at least extend it to the new M8

medoc

biffoman wrote: »

i hear that the n80 from Tullamore to Clara is to be downgraded to an r road fairly soon.this will lose priority for future upgrading.

There is no need as the N52 to the M6 is there at present and is only a slightly longer route.

There was plans and route options published for an N62 bypass of Birr I had a copy of them on my old laptop but cant find them now. Either way a Thurles (or Birr) bypass is a long way down the list of priorities at the moment. If only we had the boom for a few more years or made better use of it while it was here.

Sponge Bob

or extend it from Abbeyleix to Mountrath as there is no facility to go south to west or west to south at the M7/M8 junction, then we can fully retire the N62 from Roscrea to the M8 via Thurles . All the N78 should be retired in favour of the M9.

marmurr1916

medoc wrote: »

Following on from a suggestion about the N51/N52 is the N62 Thurles thread myidea is,

Downgarde the N52 from Birr to Borrisokane and route the N52 traffic to Roscrea and onto the M7, down grade the N52 north of Ardee and use the N33 onto the M1. Along term aim could be to re number the N52 as N33 after improvements are made to some sections (2+2 where possible), which would provide a Primary route from Northern Ireland to the South West. After the M20 is constructed it could be an alternative route to Cork from Belfast avoiding Dublin and the M50.

I would suggest an N33 from the M1 to the M9 south of Kilkenny, with the following general route:

M1-Collon-Navan* (connection with M3)-Delvin-Mullingar (connection with M4)-near Kilbeggan (connection with M6)-Tullamore-Mountmellick-Mountrath-(connection with M7/M8 interchange)-Ballycolla-Durrow-Ballyragget-Kilkenny-Danesfort (connection with M9).

*this section to be in between the existing N52 and N51 routes from the M1 to Delvin.

This would give a National Primary route that ultimately connected Waterford, Kilkenny, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Athlone, Portlaoise, Tullamore, Mullingar, Navan, Kells and Drogheda to Dundalk and onwards towards Belfast.

icdg

medoc wrote: »

There is definatly a need for a review of all National secondry routes after the opening of the Inter urbans to see which are needed or not and their condition. Also why the N82 exists is a mystery especially after the completion of the M50.

The N82 is a mystery indeed, never mind the original route though, the "new" N82 contructed in the last few years is a private road through a business park! With about 8 roundabouts on it! And its only about 2km long!

(Sorry bout all the exclaimation marks, but the N82 really does begger belief).

I'd detrunk the N82, although I'd possibly consider trunking either the R113 or R136 in its place - both of which are public roads and have substantial sections of dual carriageway - although the planning premission conditions for the R136 would probably rule that out.

JupiterKid

I disagree with some of the proposed declassifications of the National Secondaries - a number oif them like the N80, N52, N62 and N55 form an important cross-country link function.

But I would declassify the following National Secondaries:

N83 - utterly pointless and only duplicates the N17
N81 - same with the N9
N78 - once M9 is open - no longer necessary
N87 - pointless now that the Aghalane bridge is long since reopened.
N53 - either make it a new national primary to link the N2 to the M1 or downgrade. A case of sh*t or get off the pot!
N52 - downgrade between Ardee and Dundalk - it's an atrocious road.
N84 - pretty pointless

road_high

Being parochial I guess, I would not be in favour of downgrading the N78. Mainly because much of it is pretty decent road with a 100 kmh limit and would hate to see an 80 limit on it. I would like to see it maintain N status between KK and Athy and the new Athy-M9 link road to be designated N78. And thus downgrade the existing N78 north of Athy alright.

road_high

And for such an allegedly pointless road the N81 is one busy road, particularly around Blessington. Though I see validlity in the argument that the M9 makes much of the southern reaches of it reduntant. A good link road from Baltinglass to the M9 would be useful.

Sponge Bob

Blessington is not Nationally significant and I have nowt against proper regional roads either. Dual the bastid by all means after you R it

benralph

i agree with almost everything marmurr 1916 stated, except the N84 Galway-Castlebar road, this is a very busy route carrying thousands of vehicles daily between connaughts largest & third largest urban centres! Ballinrobe is a bottleneck & a bypass route has being given the green light! Its in dire need of improving!

The N83 Tuam-(kilkelly) road should be abolished immediately! It carries very little traffic & is pointless!

spacetweek

Just to give some context to this debate. In the old days (i.e. before 2010), if you wanted heavy investment for a road in your county, you tried to get it designated an N-road - thus making it eligible for Gov funding via the NRA. There was an incentive to try to get as many roads as possible designated as such as a result. Some areas like the West seem to have been very successful with this, judging from the dense network of Mayo in particular.

Now that the NRA are in charge of R-roads as well as N-roads, this is no longer necessary. An R-road is just as likely to get attention as an N-road, within reason of course. So the downgradings proposed here are more than just rationalisation; they're important given the changed reality.


Summary of changes people have put forward, that we all agree on:

Redesignate N75 from Thurles-M8 as N62
Downgrade N62 to R-road

Redesignate old N8 from Durrow-Portlaoise as N77

Downgrade entire N82. If anything, the Outer Ring Road should be the N82, but I don't advocate putting any more national highways within the urbanised Dublin area.

Downgrade entire N83. With a dual N17, you'd be faster getting to Ballyhaunis using that and the N60.

Downgrade entire N84. With a dual N17, Galway-Castlebar traffic can go N17->Claremorris->N60.

Downgrade entire N87. No longer needed.

spacetweek

My ideas:

Build Dundalk-Sligo road on new alignment and designate N16. Downgrade N53 to R-road. Downgrade N12 to N54.

Build Carrick-on-Shannon to N5 link south of Lough Gara, and downgrade N5 Longford-new link road.

When M17 opens, redesignate old N17 Galway-N63 as N63.

Downgrade the N52 from Delvin (N51/N52 split) as far as Dundalk to R-road
Redesignate the N51 the N52

The N61, N80 and N52 are long and important strategic routes. They should be assigned national primary numbers to reflect this, N34-36.

Downgrade N53 to R-road. The new N26 will negate the need for two options to get to the N5 from Ballina.

Downgrade entire N73. Mitchelstown-Mallow can use M8 and N72, though the latter would need improvement.

Downgrade N78 from the N80 to the N77. Dublin-Kilkenny traffic should never need to go via Athy again.


I propose the following big changes to the N10 and N81. I propose downgrading the N10 and reassigning the number to the more important N81. I don't agree that the N81 is a pointless road. It's a radial from a major city.


Reasons to downgrade the N10

-When the M9 opens it will be a lot shorter and less significant
-It is out of sequence - occurs west of the N9/M9 instead of east
-Looking at other link roads from towns to motorways, they are all secondaries, not primaries. Examples: Ennis-M18: N85, Thurles-M8: N75/N62, Mitchelstown-M8: N73, Loughrea-M6: N66

Reasons to redesignate the N81 as the N10

-When it is eventually extended as dual as far as Blessington it should be a National Primary, not secondary, as it will be a new Dublin radial
-It is in sequence - occurs between the 9 and 11 routes


Actions I'd take:
Wait for M9 to be finished
Wait for N81 to be dualled as far as Blessington (2020?)
Downgrade the northern part of the N10 to N77
Downgrade the Kilkenny Ring Road part of the N10 to the N76
Downgrade the southern part of the N10 to an R-road
Redesignate the N81 from the M50 to Baltinglass as the N10
Extend the new N10 from Baltinglass to the M9 at Castledermot with SC
Downgrade the N81 inside the M50 to an R-road
Downgrade the N81 from Baltinglass to N80 to an R-road

CrowdedHouse

...honest to God not trolling..so what does downgrading actually do apart from changing the name and speed limits then ? Benefit gig for the Sign makers,map/atlas printers and Sat Nav upgraders ?

L1011

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

...honest to God not trolling..so what does downgrading actually do apart from changing the name and speed limits then ? Benefit gig for the Sign makers,map/atlas printers and Sat Nav upgraders ?

Eventually moves traffic to the routes with bigger numbers as signage, maps and satnavs get updated and people psychologically go for the "more important" route numbers.

Reduce the priority of the downgraded roads for upgrades and funding.

ardmacha

Build Dundalk-Sligo road on new alignment and designate N16. Downgrade N53 to R-road. Downgrade N12 to N54.

This is connected with questions such as the Dublin - Derry route and whether the Dundalk Sligo route should pass by Monaghan or Cavan. This might also be some sort of coordination with the NI people re an Enniskillen bypass.

The N12/N54 is related to question such as how do you get to Belfast from places, e.g. Cavan or even Galway. Belfast is an important centre and there should be some primary routes in that direction to equate to the Limerick -Waterford axis.

nordydan

I wouldn't downgrade the N12 either, I'd upgrade the N54 and possibly the N55

mysterious

I'd like to Delvin to Ardee upgraded its bloody awful. The New N52 would go between N51 and N52 for most of its lenght.

The N52 needs to upgraded from Borriskane to Kilcormac. Thats pretty extensive which means a bypass of Birr. The route should be 2+2 with no HS. The Roscrea bypass, Templemore and Thurles bypass.

I would keep the Junction after the M7/M8 for the R434 and upgrade that to N77. Allow Galway and Limerick traffic to join onto the SE network.

I was all for an orbital road from Drogheda to North of Navan via Enfield and ending at M9. Now I would just prefer an upgraded N52, I'm tired of the Dublin focus., It will only attract more traffic towards Dublin. I think the Orbital route would have a devastating impact on the Boyne valley, and it's already had enough destruction with the M3:mad:

T Corolla

When the M7/M8 comes onstream later this year which road to you think will get priority withregards to upgrading and funding the N80 Portlaoise to Tullamore or the N52 from Nenagh to Tullamore my guess the N80 as it is a better road in general and would require alot less spend per mile and population density would be similar to the N52 but this particular stretch of road needs alot of work

marmurr1916

nordydan wrote: »

I wouldn't downgrade the N12 either, I'd upgrade the N54 and possibly the N55

That's what I'd do - have the N12 connecting with the N6 at Athlone and heading towards Belfast via existing N55, N54 (would build new section to bypass the bit that crosses the border several times between Cavan and Monaghan) and the existing N12.

The new route could be signed as the main route between Galway and Belfast.

Obviously the existing roads would need a hell of a lot of work before they're of an acceptable standard to be a major inter-urban route between Galway and Belfast.

-Corkie-

spacetweek wrote: »

My ideas:

Build Dundalk-Sligo road on new alignment and designate N16. Downgrade N53 to R-road. Downgrade N12 to N54.

Build Carrick-on-Shannon to N5 link south of Lough Gara, and downgrade N5 Longford-new link road.

When M17 opens, redesignate old N17 Galway-N63 as N63.

Downgrade the N52 from Delvin (N51/N52 split) as far as Dundalk to R-road
Redesignate the N51 the N52

The N61, N80 and N52 are long and important strategic routes. They should be assigned national primary numbers to reflect this, N34-36.

Downgrade N53 to R-road. The new N26 will negate the need for two options to get to the N5 from Ballina.

Downgrade entire N73. Mitchelstown-Mallow can use M8 and N72, though the latter would need improvement.

Downgrade N78 from the N80 to the N77. Dublin-Kilkenny traffic should never need to go via Athy again.


I propose the following big changes to the N10 and N81. I propose downgrading the N10 and reassigning the number to the more important N81. I don't agree that the N81 is a pointless road. It's a radial from a major city.


Reasons to downgrade the N10

-When the M9 opens it will be a lot shorter and less significant
-It is out of sequence - occurs west of the N9/M9 instead of east
-Looking at other link roads from towns to motorways, they are all secondaries, not primaries. Examples: Ennis-M18: N85, Thurles-M8: N75/N62, Mitchelstown-M8: N73, Loughrea-M6: N66

Reasons to redesignate the N81 as the N10

-When it is eventually extended as dual as far as Blessington it should be a National Primary, not secondary, as it will be a new Dublin radial
-It is in sequence - occurs between the 9 and 11 routes


Actions I'd take:
Wait for M9 to be finished
Wait for N81 to be dualled as far as Blessington (2020?)
Downgrade the northern part of the N10 to N77
Downgrade the Kilkenny Ring Road part of the N10 to the N76
Downgrade the southern part of the N10 to an R-road
Redesignate the N81 from the M50 to Baltinglass as the N10
Extend the new N10 from Baltinglass to the M9 at Castledermot with SC
Downgrade the N81 inside the M50 to an R-road
Downgrade the N81 from Baltinglass to N80 to an R-road

When are you goin on to be a td a maybe taoiseach???? You definitley have my number one boy!!!!!!:D:D

Sponge Bob

Sadly Varadkar has retained the entire soup bar the N52 north of Ardee ( N33 a much better alternative) in his 2012 Order...these designation orders only appear rarely...maybe every 10 years...otherwise map makers would hate us.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0053.html

I cannot see a sensible revision to the secondary soup being undertaken for quite some time and certainly not on Leos watch as he would have to meet a lot of godforsaken backbenchers looking to keep 'their' roads were he to propose the requisite rationalisation.

A great opportunity, sadly, missed.