The renewable, upgradeable, recyclable, re-styleable car for the 21st century

probe

The car renewal/replacement cycle could change dramatically with the electric car. While a good diesel engine might last for 500,000 km, an electric motor has a life of perhaps 30 or more years. We have had electric motors driving trains for over a century, and the same electric locomotive can last for millions of km of service.

Moving to the passenger compartments, the Corail train was introduced in France in 1975 for conventional speed (150 - 200 km/h) services. Thirty years later the fleet of Corail trains was modernised (now called the Teoz***) with completely new interiors, leather seats with electric recline adjustment, footrests, power sockets at each seat, family rooms, play rooms, vacuum toilets that keep the tracks clean etc. The same vehicle was recycled and brought into the 21st century, good for another 20 years, at least.

Motorists are used to the idea of replacing tyres, rather than getting a new car when the tyres go bald. Why not apply the same concept when you have a “new” car technology that doesn’t require gearboxes or internal combustion engines – the main things that wear out with use?

At its simplest, the electric car is a skateboard on which the motor, wheels, battery, seating, control systems and body are mounted. Each of these components could be separately updatable – eg if the owner wants a new body, the old body is removed from the skateboard base, and the new body gets clamped into place on the skateboard chassis.

The battery will need replacement every 7 to 10 years – a conventional car needs a new battery at least as frequently. The new battery will offer higher performance and lower cost compared with the original. If it is an ultra-capacitor it probably won’t need replacement at all. If fuel cells become the winning technology, the fuel cells can be slotted in place of the old battery.

The car industry is used to the idea of standardized components. We have had standard paper sizes since DIN 476* was adopted in Germany in 1922 giving us A0 to A10, B0 to B10 size sheet and C sizes for envelopes. The Germans formalised a system of standard paper sizes invented in France in the 1790s. Every country in the world now uses these paper size standards (aside from the US). The electric car can take industry standards to a new level. We have standard tyre sizes, so there is nothing to stop a car owner replacing the Michelin tyres which came with the car with Pirelli or Continental when they need replacement. If you had standard skateboard base sizes – S0 to S99 (or whatever) one could buy a different body to update the car. If you had a car using an S3 skateboard as its chassis, one could pick any body that was S3 compatible (bog standard or designer deluxe) and have it slotted in on top of the skateboard, and the old body sent off for recycling.

The production of a new car consumes considerable amounts of raw materials and energy. Iron ore is in short supply at the moment (in the middle of a recession) because of the requirements of the Chinese and other developing markets. Car sales and petroleum consumption in the developing nations are growing rapidly, and now exceed those of the developed countries**. The conversion of iron ore to a car body is CO2 intensive. The body shape of the Porsche 911 has hardly changed in decades, and has remained fashionable. Good watches are handed down in families from one generation to the next – making the odd trip every few decades to the factory for a renovation job, rather than being thrown away and replaced by new rubbish. No reason why electric cars can’t have a greatly extended shelf life, compared with their internal combustion engine counterparts.

A large scale transition of vehicles from liquid fuels to electricity would reduce the demand for diesel and gasoline. The reduced tax revenue from these fuels could be made up by an “NCT tax” (call it a “public transport support payment”) . When an electric car goes for its NCT, in addition to a fixed fee for the test, a charge of (for the sake of argument) 4c per km driven, since the last NCT (or since 0 km in the case of the first NCT) could be imposed. The NCT system provides an easy independent means of recording km usage without any additional gadgets or bureaucracy being put in place. People whose cars are driven for long distances every year could be given the option to pre-pay the charge on account at intervals or by instalment using their debit card, via the NCT website. Such a tax would encourage people to use public transport as much as possible, and minimise car use – because it is more transparent compared with hiding it in fuel charges. There is no point in introducing this tax until there is a substantial take-up of electric cars, after which point it could apply after the next NCT for each electric car to avoid verification issues regarding the odometer reading at the start of the tax.

***http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdPpS5f_xp0

** http://media.bloomberg.com/bb/avfile/News/Surveillance/vcDa3Dh9e6gU.mp3

* http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/A_size_illustration.svg

Macha

You still have to address range and infrastructure though, right?

probe

taconnol wrote: »

You still have to address range and infrastructure though, right?

The transition from the internal combustion engine to the electric vehicle will happen sooner rather than later, and as anyone who has been to the Frankfurt or Geneva car shows of late will tell you, sooner rather than later. The electric car is cheap to manufacture, and any manufacturer who isn’t ready will risk being out of business once the battery solution is in place.

If you take a positive view on the prospects for EEstor over the next two years, infrastructure will fall into place (a car with a 300 km range doesn’t need to stop for fuel very often, and the capacitor can charge up as quickly as a conventional fuel tank can be filled). And you can fill it up at home/work or wherever there is a power point available. You might even manage to drive between somewhere in Dublin and Cork on a single charge, despite the best efforts of the incompetent idiots in the NRA who are in the process of completing a 240 km motorway (E20/E201) without a single service area. No doubt anyone who runs out of juice en route will be writing to the Irish Times demanding that the NRA board be fired – together with whoever is in political command at the time. It will take time, but ultimately these morons will get the message….

There is a lot of negative stuff on blogs about EEstor which I am putting in the “mental trash can” for the moment. Bloggers want fresh meat news. Dick Weir is keeping his mouth shut. He appears to have a lot of experience in the right areas from basic research, chemistry, and manufacturing and does not come across as a bull****ter. The company seems to have met or exceeded each certification milestone along the way. He seems quite happy to leave the marketing of the EEstor capacitor system to established companies in various business segments - but is keeping control over the development and manufacturing of the basic EEstor energy storage product.

Even if EEstor falls flat on its face, there are many others working on other energy storage technologies – eg IBM’s lithium-air technology apparently has 10x the performance of conventional lithium ion. If all of them fail, and we are stuck with the lead acid battery (unlikely), the Better Place battery changing solution can fuel a car up in about 4 minutes in a drive thru process.

I don’t think range will be a problem in Ireland because of the small size of the place. Virtually everywhere else in Europe has motorway service areas every 30 or 40 km, and you can be sure they will all have the necessary charging infrastructure when the vehicles start to roll off the production line in quantity. France has Aires de Repose about every 10 minutes of driving on the autoroute system (parking areas to rest, normally with a toilet and trash/recycling bins, in addition to full motorway service areas) – even these could be fitted with a charging station for one or two vehicles that takes a debit card/PIN for the nervous driver who likes to keep his/her battery charged to the brim! :-)

I don’t think range will be a problem wherever you drive (in Europe anyway).

However, it mightn’t be the best solution for Antarctica, just yet.

Macha

Range and infrastructure aren't just an issue of practicalities but also consumer willingness.

I am personally very pro-electric cars but most people would baulk at the idea of a max range of 150kms.

Also the Better Place technology would require significant standardisation of batteries. Also the constant recharging of the batteries that is part of the scheme seriously shortens their life.

probe

taconnol wrote: »

Range and infrastructure aren't just an issue of practicalities but also consumer willingness.

I am personally very pro-electric cars but most people would baulk at the idea of a max range of 150kms.

Also the Better Place technology would require significant standardisation of batteries. Also the constant recharging of the batteries that is part of the scheme seriously shortens their life.

I'd suggest one waits until we see what EEstor delivers over the next 12 months or so. Before worrying about a plan B or C (other battery technologies with limited range, or continuing to use hydrocarbons).

If the world is stuck with plan B or C, much depends on your personal / family requirements and where you live.

I'm in the fortunate position of having a bus (bio-diesel) every 6 mins, an (electric [hydro electricity]) powered train every 15 mins and a hypermarket and traditional street market all within walking distance. Typically I touch the steering wheel of a car once a month and it is fun to drive on these occasions.

As far as consumer willingness is concerned we are in the middle of the biggest global recession of the century, perhaps ever, and oil is at $80 per bbl. Perhaps part of that price reflects commodity index fund speculation, but a large part of the price reflects the increasing demand for oil in Asia which has 4 billion people - more than 10 x USA. How far can consumer willingness to pay for fuel be stretched when the price goes up and up?

Add to that, Ireland is throwing about $6 billion a year down the drain on hydro carbon imports - it could be investing a part of this money on infrastructure to harness the locally abundant natural energy, and pocketing the rest. Ireland's petroleum imports were up 137% between 2001 and 07. The same old ways can't continue ad infinitum.

robtri

batteries that last 7-10 years.......
thats having a laugh isn't????
my lastest and greast laptop... with state of the art lithium battery will alst a year or two tops.....
so a bit confused by that statement....
where are these bateries now??

Cheeble

It seems to me to be the ultimate "inside the box" thinking.

Probe's thesis is still based on the social model where we continue to rely on cars and roads and where most individuals travel more than walking distance on a daily basis.

Why not a greener solution where we don't individually own, nor need, a car? Then the question of fossil versus wind powered (or whatever) becomes an irrelevance.

Cheeble-eers

silverharp

Road pricing would be a big leap forward as would easy rental/car club schemes for cities. In my own case a reasonably sized electric car would be fine for 95% of my car usage if I could then rent a car for the odd longer trips.

robtri

Why is it that everyone thinks that the EV car is the saviour of the climate...

I am sorry but the EV car is the greatest piece of bull**** that has hit theGreen Circuit....

It really gets on my goat to see all the praise going to EV's...

Untill we have clean energy.. an EV car is laughable, while our electricity is so dirty.....

and taking into account the fact that an EV car is more enviromentally damaging than a normal car to build.... really makes it so funny...


Are they the Future.... YES.... no doubt...
but please they are crap now...

Sorry rant over...

seamus

probe wrote: »

At its simplest, the electric car is a skateboard on which the motor, wheels, battery, seating, control systems and body are mounted. Each of these components could be separately updatable – eg if the owner wants a new body, the old body is removed from the skateboard base, and the new body gets clamped into place on the skateboard chassis.

You need to account for the complexities of the vehicle even when you don't include the engine, particularly the electrics. Yes, in an ideal world we could standardise all fittings in all vehicles, but then pretty soon we end up with every vehicle looking almost the same. People like having very individual vehicles. You also don't take into account updates in the technology.

For example, you have a standard connection for most car radios in the world. This works fine when the turnover of vehicles is every five years or so. But extend that to 30 years and what happens when someone comes up with a better "standard"? How do you upgrade the standard connection on every vehicle without having to dig down deep?

In addition, assembly line manufacturing lowers the cost of building a vehicle in such a way that it's far cheaper to build/buy a new vehicle than upgrade the chassis on an existing one. I can't see this changing anytime soo, standards or no standards.

The battery will need replacement every 7 to 10 years

7-10 years is a while off yet. Overcoming or mitigating the loss in capacity of Li-ion batteries is one of the bigger hurdles. Even if you only have the Li-ion for about 3 years, it will have lost about 60% of it's original capacity, reducing a possible range of 300km to just 120km.

taconnol wrote: »

I am personally very pro-electric cars but most people would baulk at the idea of a max range of 150kms.

Also the Better Place technology would require significant standardisation of batteries. Also the constant recharging of the batteries that is part of the scheme seriously shortens their life.

For runarounds which rarely or never leave the local area, I think most people would have no problem with 150km; you just plug it in every night. As I mention above, overcoming the issue of diminishing capacity is one of the big problems. Particularly in hotter places, the life of the battery will be seriously hampered by high temperatures making electric cars a non-option for southern US states, as well as most of the southern hemisphere.

robtri wrote: »

my lastest and greast laptop... with state of the art lithium battery will alst a year or two tops...

The battery will easily last three years, but then this reflects the disposal rate of common consumer electronics such as phones and laptops.

robtri wrote: »

Untill we have clean energy.. an EV car is laughable, while our electricity is so dirty.....

Actually, the benefit of the EV car in this regard is that the source of the energy can be easily changed without affecting the car-using population. At present, the big hurdle is changing from combustion to electric. Once this is done, the source of the power is irrelevant and can be easily changed as power generation technology improves.

robtri

seamus wrote: »

YAt present, the big hurdle is changing from combustion to electric. Once this is done, the source of the power is irrelevant and can be easily changed as power generation technology improves.

why is the source irrelevant?? that makes no sense to me...
whats the point in switching to EV cars if we don't take care of the pollution at source

IMO, we need to address our power supply first and fix that first, otherwise IMHO its a just a feel good SMUG exercise for people, to feel the green bandwagon..

whats the pint in selling and buying EV cars when they are nearly just as damaging to the enviroment as current cars????

robtri

seamus wrote: »

The battery will easily last three years, but then this reflects the disposal rate of common consumer electronics such as phones and laptops.

sorry but no, I have my laptop now just over a year, a Lenovo T61 high spec... battery lasted one year..... my dell inspirion at home.... 7 months....
my blackberry, 4 batteries, in 2 years...
all the time I keep the same device...

seamus

robtri wrote: »

why is the source irrelevant?? that makes no sense to me...
whats the point in switching to EV cars if we don't take care of the pollution at source

But when there are millions of these energy sources (i.e. each vehicle) the exercise becomes a pain in the ass. At the moment, changing the type of fuel that vehicles use basically requires the vehicle to be replaced. If we discover some other fossil fuel which is cleaner or a slightly cleaner way of using petrol/gas (like we did when we switched to unleaded), then you need to replace all of the vehicle fleet as well as the infrastructure required to supply these new energy sources.

However the switch to electricity only requires a change once. You're centralising the pollution problem and thereby making it miles easier to deal with. It then leaves you free to change the source of the energy all you like (from gas to coal to nuclear, and so on) without having to force people to change their vehicles or massively overhaul the supply infrastructure.

robtri wrote: »

sorry but no, I have my laptop now just over a year, a Lenovo T61 high spec... battery lasted one year..... my dell inspirion at home.... 7 months....
my blackberry, 4 batteries, in 2 years...
all the time I keep the same device...

Sounds like you're having a run of bad luck or there's something wrong with the electricity supply in your house that it's killing your batteries. If you get less than 12 months out of a battery in a laptop, you'd get that replaced under warranty. And no company is going to routinely insert components which consistently need to be replaced under warranty

maniac101

Cheeble wrote: »

It seems to me to be the ultimate "inside the box" thinking.

Probe's thesis is still based on the social model where we continue to rely on cars and roads and where most individuals travel more than walking distance on a daily basis.

Why not a greener solution where we don't individually own, nor need, a car? Then the question of fossil versus wind powered (or whatever) becomes an irrelevance.

Cheeble-eers

This is a good point. We look for technological solutions to solve energy/pollution problems that don't stem from technology. The personal transport issues in Ireland are not technological issues - they're planning issues. We rely on the car because of the way we plan (or don't plan) and build our houses, offices, shops, factories, schools. Providing a viable public transport alternative to the car has now become impossible as a result of planning. It's far easier to look for a technological alternative to the internal combustion engine than to address the root cause of the problem and undo all the damage that we've done through poor planning.

robtri

seamus wrote: »

But when there are millions of these energy sources (i.e. each vehicle) the exercise becomes a pain in the ass. At the moment, changing the type of fuel that vehicles use basically requires the vehicle to be replaced. If we discover some other fossil fuel which is cleaner or a slightly cleaner way of using petrol/gas (like we did when we switched to unleaded), then you need to replace all of the vehicle fleet as well as the infrastructure required to supply these new energy sources.

However the switch to electricity only requires a change once. You're centralising the pollution problem and thereby making it miles easier to deal with. It then leaves you free to change the source of the energy all you like (from gas to coal to nuclear, and so on) without having to force people to change their vehicles or massively overhaul the supply infrastructure.

While that makes sense in theroy, I cannot see that happening, as for the forseeable future we plan to rely on fossil fuels to drive our electricity....

the change to unleaded petrol went very seamlessly.... so that wouldn't be an issue, no diiferent from the infrastructure chages to support ellecy cars...

to me its like telling people to buy these fabulous new laptops, they use a 1/3 less energy, but they are slower at the moment, every 2 hours you have to power them off for 30 mins... but they are enabled for the next generation of broadband, but we won't be having that anytime soon maybe 5-20 more years....

cnocbui

Cheeble wrote: »

Why not a greener solution where we don't individually own, nor need, a car? Then the question of fossil versus wind powered (or whatever) becomes an irrelevance.

Cheeble-eers

I wan't to see you carry a weeks shopping for a family of four for 6km in a backpack uphill.

Really I do. I will bring a deckchair, something to drink and some snacks and a box of tissues to wipe the tears of laughter from my eyes as I watch your attempt.

Cheeble

Nah, I'm smarter than you: I'd have it delivered (in an electric truck). Don't worry though, I'd order in some ice cream for you

Cheeble-eers

cnocbui

probe wrote: »

The car renewal/replacement cycle could change dramatically with the electric car. ...

I actually sort of agree with you. Irrespective of the energy systems used to power them, cars should be made from titanium and carbon fibre and their weight reduced so they are well under 1000kg.

The bits that wear out should just be replaced and they should be constructed in a modular fashion to facilitate such refurbishment.

A vast proportion of the energy used by cars is expended just accelerating their considerable mass from rest repeatedly.

cnocbui

Cheeble wrote: »

Nah, I'm smarter than you: I'd have it delivered (in an electric truck). Don't worry though, I'd order in some ice cream for you

Cheeble-eers

Sorry to inform you but the ice cream you ordered for me was left sitting on the doorstep and was just a melted puddle because I was out when it was delivered and the rest of it was torn apart by the neighbors dog.

I regularly do the family shopping and there are innumerable reasons why the model which has been followed in all countries throughout history has been that the customer goes to the food vendors and chooses what they wish to purchase.

Try again brainiac.

Cheeble

Nonsense. Have you never heard of milkmen? They even use electric vehicles.

Cheeble-eers

cnocbui

Cheeble wrote: »

Nonsense. Have you never heard of milkmen? They even use electric vehicles.

Cheeble-eers

Have you ever done a milk round yourself?

I have, and the vehicle wasn't electric, it was a 1.5 ton petrol driven truck.

The trick to the whole system that made it at all feasible was you had to start at 2:30 am so you could get down to the depot and pick up the crates of milk and other dairy products so you could start delivering by 3:30 so you had everything delivered BEFORE the householders had left for the day and while the ambient temperatures were not so great as to adversely affect the product, which could still happen.

Try again.

djpbarry

Could we possibly steer the discussion away from milk and ice-cream and back towards the topic at hand?

probe

Cheeble wrote: »

Nonsense. Have you never heard of milkmen? They even use electric vehicles.

Cheeble-eers

I'm told there was a time in Irish cities when milk deliveries, trash collection, bread deliveries, dry cleaners collecting and delivering clothes, and similar all used electric vehicles, running on lead acid batteries. While the batteries will use different technology, the electric vehicles will be back.

Much more acoustically pleasant compared with a grinding diesel engine milk truck delivering to a shop at 05h00 - where the driver leaves the engine idling wastefully for 5 minutes. Yuk.

Capt'n Midnight

probe wrote: »

I'm told there was a time in Irish cities when milk deliveries, trash collection, bread deliveries, dry cleaners collecting and delivering clothes, and similar all used electric vehicles, running on lead acid batteries. While the batteries will use different technology, the electric vehicles will be back.

yes there was a time. But the dairies decided to outsource the deliveries. One of those economics things where they didn't have capital tied up or delivery men as employees. Ask the bean counters.

The problem is that the infrastructure is gone, in the same way that most eircom vans are run by subcontractors


Paris and other cities used to have a series of pneumatic tunnels to deliver mail and goods direct to houses, but no longer.

probe

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

yes there was a time. But the dairies decided to outsource the deliveries. One of those economics things where they didn't have capital tied up or delivery men as employees. Ask the bean counters.

The problem is that the infrastructure is gone, in the same way that most eircom vans are run by subcontractors


Paris and other cities used to have a series of pneumatic tunnels to deliver mail and goods direct to houses, but no longer.

Labour cost is surely a big issue. Who is going to work on a door to door basis delivering milk, bread, or collecting and delivering dry cleaning in 2009? The intensive door to door stop and go vehicular movement was ideally suited to electric vehicles of that generation.

My local postman has an electric van. Occasionally he will see me walking in the street with a letter in my hand with a stamp on it en route to be posted (in the middle of a dense urban jungle) and ask me if I want to give him the letter. Because it is easy for him to stop and take off in an e-vehicle. Needless to say he doesn't work for An Post :-(

And we have pneumatic tunnels that take the trash from each building to the local incinerator. And pipes running down the same tunnels back from the incinerator with hot and freezing cold (5C) water for our heat exchangers to provide heat and air con and hot water.

The "infrastructure" isn't gone everywhere!