LSR Pace

kennyb3 · 27-10-2009 10:34am #1

I originally posted this on the sub 4.30 thread in the logs in response to someone saying they did their LSR's too quick. I was just thinking about that very thing last night as a good few boardsie's seemed to fall belhind their their predicted times.

'can i ask you about this, just wondering why you think that? this is not aimed at you or anybody here specifically but just thinking about yesterday and perhaps more experienced marathoners will post - but just from looking at predicted times from a range of people to what they got on the day and reading the reports, it seems alot of people cracked at 18 or 20 miles, yet people do this distance in training - fair enough cracking at 23 to 24 miles. for me the big issue is surely pace. doing long runs at a slower pace but then on the day you go faster so you crack earlier. i know why lsr are done at a slower pace - i.e recovery and not breaking down the body but i think doing them too slow can also be detrimental - i guess striking a balance is key. i.e 1st half at plus 10% of PMP and 2nd half at PMP. i know P & D suggest 20% and then down to plus 10% 2nd half - but is this not well too slow in the peak phase? its surely a great way of starting your longer runs in weeks 1 to 6 or so but sure you have to ramp it up a bit after this?

Too many people seem to base their marathon time on half marathon times plus 10 mins, alot of teh lads who went out to get 3 hours or just over seemed to be widely off teh mark and suffered. but surely for a half marathon your racing at full pace over half the distance and going out too close to this pace (i.e only plus 5 mins to half marathon race time at half way) is too close to your threshold and therefore your likely to suffer later on esp as you go into the unknown last 6 miles. as i say not something that is aimed at you , just got thinking about long run paces for a while last night.'

Also i think racing flat advocates half marathon plus 14mins if i remember rightlyu and some people more so would be interested to here if anyone got their half marathon time plus 10 mins exactly or less. For me id be looking to add 15 mins i reckon. therefore is going through the half way point only plus 5 mins instead of 7.5mins (an extra 12 seconds a mile quicker the reason for people suffering in the last 4 to 6 miles?

anyway as someone who had done long runs too fast myself and therefore found it hard to get past 15miles or so, when i slowed down i found it much easier. but how easy should it be? is there a case for sacrificing a 5 mile steady run and having a days rest or two as a result of doing a harder long run on a sunday, i.e trying to only do quality miles rather than just racking up miles for the sake of miles. lot of people seem to be hitting 40 to 50 miles, but is there too many comfy 4, 5 and 6s for the sake of doing miles? i know in the base building phase they are key but should they be as common in the weeks around peak time.

Do people underestimate the marathon? it seems so.

anyway any thoughts appreciated, and can i just say i havent run a marathon myself and am more interested in gleaning info and having a proper discussion, not having a go at anyone. if you were doing it again would you train up to 23 or 24 miles.

the other thing i was thinking about was tapering, lot of threads and tine given to it, how did people feel theirs went, too short, too long?

shels4ever · 27-10-2009 10:42am

I think the point about doing the LSR too fast is not just done to any specific long run, As during your marathon training you will be doing the guts of 100 miles of long runs, if your doing all of them at your planned marathon pace the time to recover after eash long run will be too much and training may suffer or you'll go into the marathon run down of over trained.

Also with your LSR they are part of a training plan and only one of your weeks session, so doing them too fast could make you miss some other runs during the week. Remember after the marathon your going to be resting .

The aim of the long run is to teach your body how to deal with the enegry needs and due to this doenst need to be done at PMP all the time. Of course each marathon schedule should included some PMP runs and going on this you should be able to judge your target marathon pace, if you cant hit a 15 mmile pmp run 4 week prior to the marathon maybe the target time is too fast.

Just my thoughs, i've never run a good marathon so cant back them up (yet

)

tunney · 27-10-2009 10:47am

Overestimating the training they did?
Unrealistic goals?
Years of inactivity followed by a Hal Hidgeon 6 month plan?

Alot more realistic reasons before pacing of LERs I think.

Who was the fastest boardsie on the day?

RoyMcC · 27-10-2009 10:54am

I'm no marathon expert at all. However an LSR is not a recovery run in any shape or form. Shels has it right in that you ought to be doing at least some of your LSRs at PMP.

Recovery runs ought to be shorter, slower and easy.

kennyb3 · 27-10-2009 10:58am

shels4ever wrote: »

I think the point about doing the LSR too fast is not just done to any specific long run, As during your marathon training you will be doing the guts of 100 miles of long runs, if your doing all of them at your planned marathon pace the time to recover after eash long run will be too much and training may suffer or you'll go into the marathon run down of over trained.

Also with your LSR they are part of a training plan and only one of your weeks session, so doing them too fast could make you miss some other runs during the week. Remember after the marathon your going to be resting .

The aim of the long run is to teach your body how to deal with the enegry needs and due to this doenst need to be done at PMP all the time. Of course each marathon schedule should included some PMP runs and going on this you should be able to judge your target marathon pace, if you cant hit a 15 mmile pmp run 4 week prior to the marathon maybe the target time is too fast.

Just my thoughs, i've never run a good marathon so cant back them up (yet )

I get what your saying about doing them all at marathon pace in the 1st para, but i guess what im asking are people doing them too slow and too many too slow i.e how many did 18 miles at PMP, im just not sure 13 or 14 at PMP is enough, because on teh day you ve 12 or 13 more at that pace too do. By doing 18 at PMP your only doing 69% of the work you expect to do on the big day, so surely you shouldnt be wrecked for a week after.

that brings me onto the next 2 points. are they not doing 18 because they are worried about being too tired for their 6 mile steady run the 2nd day after. maybe this is worth sacrificing. also the point about the lsr being only one part of your session. surely it should be the key most important run of the week and maybe thats why people need phased training. i.e base, speed and endurance phases.

just my thoughts/questions in my own head really

kennyb3 · 27-10-2009 11:00am

RoyMcC wrote: »

I'm no marathon expert at all. However an LSR is not a recovery run in any shape or form. Shels has it right in that you ought to be doing at least some of your LSRs at PMP.

Recovery runs ought to be shorter, slower and easy.

i think you ve misread what im saying. im asking should they be done faster and the standard steady runs (not to be confues with a recover run) sacrificed to some extent. i.e you might need two by 3 mile recovery run days after a harder LSR?

shels4ever · 27-10-2009 11:08am

kennyb3 wrote: »

I get what your saying about doing them all at marathon pace in the 1st para, but i guess what im asking are people doing them too slow and too many too slow i.e how many did 18 miles at PMP, im just not sure 13 or 14 at PMP is enough, because on teh day you ve 12 or 13 more at that pace too do. By doing 18 at PMP your only doing 69% of the work you expect to do on the big day, so surely you shouldnt be wrecked for a week after.

that brings me onto the next 2 points. are they not doing 18 because they are worried about being too tired for their 6 mile steady run the 2nd day after. maybe this is worth sacrificing. also the point about the lsr being only one part of your session. surely it should be the key most important run of the week and maybe thats why people need phased training. i.e base, speed and endurance phases.

just my thoughts/questions in my own head really

15-18 pm should be enough I think, rember your doing these in weeks of max miles so they are going to be hard, going into the marathon you will be rested and should get you around the last 8. I see the point about 69% but you need to factor in the other session of that week, and the long runs prior to this been in the legs. If your doing yoru long runs at your max pace you risk burn out and injury.

Yep Long run is a the key session.

I'd also say alot of it is down to 16 week marathon plans, the plan should be more like 52 weeks

to get a good base.

Next marathon i'll do i'll totally change my training as i think i made a mess of the last one for the exact reasons that your talking about ;0

shels4ever · 27-10-2009 11:09am

tunney wrote: »

Who was the fastest boardsie on the day?

2:47 that i know of.

kennyb3 · 27-10-2009 11:12am

tunney wrote: »

Overestimating the training they did?
Unrealistic goals?
Years of inactivity followed by a Hal Hidgeon 6 month plan?

Alot more realistic reasons before pacing of LERs I think.

Who was the fastest boardsie on the day?

i cant answer your questions, but i guess your right and i have questions of my own re this. like clearly people are basing their goals targets on here because most people are telling them 'you ran a half marathon in such and such, double it and add 10'. obviously this applies if you ve done x amount of miles and x amount of long runs at x pace.

but what are these x's in my equation above. i wonder if there is any research? so what im wondering are people being set up for a fall by setting out too fast.

in relation to overestimation of training, people seem to measure miles per week, i wonder if this is the way to go?

again these are all just questions i have anyway

Bobby04 · 27-10-2009 11:17am

My race was a disaster, and while the reason was my legs ceased up on me, was the cause too fast a pace early on and not enough training at that pace??
I don't know. I ran 1:37 for the half, and really thought I had sub 3:30 in me. I was still on target all the way up to 20miles, but walking and limping over the last 6 say me home in 3:40. I had done up to 13 miles at 7:45min pace (easily sub 3:30 pace) during LSR's of up to 22 miles in training. And I had done lots of 3 mile interval sessions at HMP. So I am really confused as to why and where it all went so badly wrong for me on the day. My taper was far from ideal as I got a chest infection and had to take antibiotics for the second last week before the race. This meant my milage for the last 2 weeks was half what I'd planned. But this would surely not affect me greatly?
What would I do differently? Maybe even more PMP miles during LSRs and maybe from earlier in the program. Hard to know.
Interested though to hear other views.

shels4ever · 27-10-2009 11:25am

kennyb3 wrote: »

again these are all just questions i have anyway

Have a read of this too, it's only one view point and some people will not agree with everything in it.

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/marathonlongrun.htm

earlyevening · 27-10-2009 11:36am

I'm no expert and don't follow recommended advice at all but it seems to work.
I found that I improved by doing far more long runs than are recommended. I did 20 16 mile+ runs in the last 18 weeks, 7 of which were 21 mile runs.
Also I didnt particularly do them 60secs slower than PMP. If I was feeling OK I ran them at race pace from start to finish.
I dont put much faith in religiously following some internet training plan. Put the miles in, quality miles mind you and the results seem to follow. Take it pretty seriously and we'll all improve again next year.
You only get out of it what you put into it. Its definitely harder than it looks!

(thats only my two cents....probably much better off copying the 2:47 men.)

tunney · 27-10-2009 11:36am

shels4ever wrote: »

Have a read of this too, it's only one view point and some people will not agree with everything in it.

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/marathonlongrun.htm

I'm a big fan of the fast finish long runs. Definitely build durability.

tergat · 27-10-2009 11:39am

kennyb3 wrote: »

I originally posted this on the sub 4.30 thread in the logs in response to someone saying they did their LSR's too quick. I was just thinking about that very thing last night as a good few boardsie's seemed to fall belhind their their predicted times.

'can i ask you about this, just wondering why you think that? this is not aimed at you or anybody here specifically but just thinking about yesterday and perhaps more experienced marathoners will post - but just from looking at predicted times from a range of people to what they got on the day and reading the reports, it seems alot of people cracked at 18 or 20 miles, yet people do this distance in training - fair enough cracking at 23 to 24 miles. for me the big issue is surely pace. doing long runs at a slower pace but then on the day you go faster so you crack earlier. i know why lsr are done at a slower pace - i.e recovery and not breaking down the body but i think doing them too slow can also be detrimental - i guess striking a balance is key. i.e 1st half at plus 10% of PMP and 2nd half at PMP. i know P & D suggest 20% and then down to plus 10% 2nd half - but is this not well too slow in the peak phase? its surely a great way of starting your longer runs in weeks 1 to 6 or so but sure you have to ramp it up a bit after this?

Too many people seem to base their marathon time on half marathon times plus 10 mins, alot of teh lads who went out to get 3 hours or just over seemed to be widely off teh mark and suffered. but surely for a half marathon your racing at full pace over half the distance and going out too close to this pace (i.e only plus 5 mins to half marathon race time at half way) is too close to your threshold and therefore your likely to suffer later on esp as you go into the unknown last 6 miles. as i say not something that is aimed at you , just got thinking about long run paces for a while last night.'

Also i think racing flat advocates half marathon plus 14mins if i remember rightlyu and some people more so would be interested to here if anyone got their half marathon time plus 10 mins exactly or less. For me id be looking to add 15 mins i reckon. therefore is going through the half way point only plus 5 mins instead of 7.5mins (an extra 12 seconds a mile quicker the reason for people suffering in the last 4 to 6 miles?

anyway as someone who had done long runs too fast myself and therefore found it hard to get past 15miles or so, when i slowed down i found it much easier. but how easy should it be? is there a case for sacrificing a 5 mile steady run and having a days rest or two as a result of doing a harder long run on a sunday, i.e trying to only do quality miles rather than just racking up miles for the sake of miles. lot of people seem to be hitting 40 to 50 miles, but is there too many comfy 4, 5 and 6s for the sake of doing miles? i know in the base building phase they are key but should they be as common in the weeks around peak time.

Do people underestimate the marathon? it seems so.

anyway any thoughts appreciated, and can i just say i havent run a marathon myself and am more interested in gleaning info and having a proper discussion, not having a go at anyone. if you were doing it again would you train up to 23 or 24 miles.

the other thing i was thinking about was tapering, lot of threads and tine given to it, how did people feel theirs went, too short, too long?

kennyb3,

Marathon running is a big challenge. Covering 26.2 miles by foot at a good pace is not easy. To do the event well, one must have performed excellent training for several months. I do NOT believe in “surviving” a marathon, people should train for it the right way. Committed runners should prepare well five to six months prior to a marathon race, at least. The first two to three months should be focused on 5km-10k training. The last two to four months should be marathon-specific training. During 10k training, one should focus on consistently doing the types of workouts that lay the foundation for marathon-specific training. Ive posted some stuff below which I have put up here before.

Re Long Runs you have to start with building time on your feet and can be a slow as you want. As you build to your target long run time e.g 2 hrs 20 mins, you can then add some quality to the end of the run. E.g 2 hrs easy & 20 mins @ Marathon pace. 5-6 weeks out from the Marathon you can do something like 10 mile easy & 10 miles @ Marathon pace.

Let’s look at 10k training in more detail. In truth, there are many ways to prepare for this event but, in brief, two main approaches are viable:
Approach # 1: Run moderate mileage every week and do plenty of faster paced interval, tempo, or varied paced speed sessions. By moderate mileage I mean ~110 miles per week for elite runners, ~80-90 miles per week for semi-elites, ~60-70 miles per week for “club” runners, ~ 40-50 miles per week for “local” runners, and ~30 miles per week for novice runners.
Approach # 2: Run high mileage and do less fast running. By high mileage I mean ~125 miles per week for elite runners, ~ 105 miles per week for semi-elite runners, ~ 85 miles per week for club runners, ~ 65 miles per week for local runners, and ~ 45 miles per week for novice runners. You should not do long, fast runs during 10k training, even if you are doing high mileage. However, you could do many double day runs – two runs per day - to elevate aerobic volume. An elite and semi-elite runner using this method would run 90-120 minute per day in most cases. A club and local runner would cover 60-90 minutes of running most days (a weekly single run of 90-120 minutes is fine). A novice runner would cover 30-60 minutes of running most days (a weekly 90 minute run would be fine) and have 1-2 days of rest per week, too. It should be “balanced training.” It should be consistent and moderate in how much fast running you do. You should reach the end of your 10k training phase without fatigue, injury or malaise! Avoid the trap of racing too often: it would deplete your adaptive reserves. Use common sense and be patient. Never run “super-hero workouts” and be sure to take care of the little details like icing sore spots, backing off when you feel pain or exhaustion, eating right, and getting enough sleep. Remember, you want to be “hungry” to start marathon-specific training!

Marathon Training is all about two words: Big/Long Workouts (Long Runs with quality included). It really is that simple. Whenever you prepare for the marathon, you need to do workouts that last a long time, twice per week. If you have a history of injuries or breaking down easily that may mean you should do only One Big Workout per week. However, most runners who do it this way find that the shorter, slower runs between the Big Workouts make all the difference in the world. Many runners have made comments about how good they feel doing Big Workouts because they aren’t running too much distance work between each Big Workout. That is, they are using a bigger variance between the important (key) workouts and the regular, every day, runs. For example, a club runner using a different training program might be running 10 milers every day between harder workouts but when using this Marathon Training method they run just 7 miles between key workouts.
I’ve never believed that high mileage is necessarily the best way to train for marathons. Though mileage builds aerobic capacity, it is not specific. Big Workouts, on the other hand, are specific. They simulate the demands of the event. That’s the key!

Big workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Big” means at least 70-90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 80-90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity. Do take care to build up to Big Workouts slowly. Be sure to have a medical test before attempting any training schedule. It is assumed that you should be healthy and have no injuries. It is also assumed that you have built up to such workouts over many weeks and months.
Examples (Each to include 2-4 miles warm up and warm down):
-4 x 2-3 miles @ MP, jog 2 minutes between, then 6 x 100 @ 5k, jog 100
- 4 x 1.5-2 miles @ HMP, jog 2 minutes between, then 6 x 100m @ 5k, jog 100

I suggest that you pick one of three peaking plans: short, medium or long duration. Choose the one that fits your situation and needs. The short peak phase lasts 4-5 days only. The medium one lasts 8-10 days. The long one last 15-21 days. If in doubt, pick the middle one.

Long runs are a critical element of marathon training, but it is important to back off the duration so that your legs won,t be too sore on race day. If you having been really pushing the mileage high and your long runs long, then start tapering the long runs about 4-5 weeks before race day. If you have been reasonable and not overextending yourself, your last long run can be 22 days before your race. I suggest cutting your long run by 20-25% on day 15 before your race and 30-35% on day 8 before your race. For example, if you have been running 20 milers regularly for a long run, then two weekends before your race run 15 miles only at an easy to moderate speed. Then, one weekend before your event run 13 miles at a Slow pace.
Key workouts are an important consideration too. In the last three weeks, I suggest you do one mid-week workout that is a bit more speedy than your long run. The three key workouts I recommend in order of succession are as follows:
1) warmup, run 5,4,3,2,1 mile at Marathon Pace (be realistic), rest 2-3 minutes between each, cool-down; (if in doubt, skip the 5 mile rep)
2) warmup, run 5-6 x 1 mile at Lactate Threshold Pace, jog 1-2 minutes between each, cool-down;
3) warmup, run 2 x 1 mile at 10k pace, jog 2 minutes between, cool-down.

So a typical week during Marathon buildup (last 12 weeks) may look like this:
M- Easy 4-8 miles
T- Easy 4-8 miles & 6*100m strides
W- Big Workout as above
T- Easy 4-8 miles
F- Rest
S- Easy 4-8 miles & 6*100m strides
S- Long Run 2hrs + with last 2-5 miles at MP

Tergat

shels4ever · 27-10-2009 11:40am

tunney wrote: »

I'm a big fan of the fast finish long runs. Definitely build durability.

Yep its one that i like too.

kennyb3 · 27-10-2009 12:15pm

shels4ever wrote: »

15-18 pm should be enough I think, rember your doing these in weeks of max miles so they are going to be hard, going into the marathon you will be rested and should get you around the last 8. I see the point about 69% but you need to factor in the other session of that week, and the long runs prior to this been in the legs. If your doing yoru long runs at your max pace you risk burn out and injury.

Yep Long run is a the key session.

I'd also say alot of it is down to 16 week marathon plans, the plan should be more like 52 weeks to get a good base.

Next marathon i'll do i'll totally change my training as i think i made a mess of the last one for the exact reasons that your talking about ;0

just to clarify on the first bit, im not actually arguing that doing only 69% of the ditance is not doing enough, i guess im saying 2 things. 1. if you cant do 18miles at pmp how can you expect to do 26 and 2. i guess im arguing that as its only 69% it shouldnt have you wrecked fro a week. i take your point though that its not a one off run and there are more runs in the week to do. i guess im wondering if doing a 18mile pmp plus 2 recovery days after would be way better than doing a slow long run and then one recover day plus 6 steadyt miles teh following day as many seem to do.

thanks for the link. like you i plan to approach the mararthon differently. i think i ll work my way up through the distances and improve my shorther stuff after some base building. like tergat says i dont see 'surviving' the marathon as a good thing hence i pulled the plug this year.

LSR Pace

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