Roundabouts

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 8:32am #1

Can someone please clarify the rules of the road regarding turning right on roundabouts with 2 approach lanes. There are 2 roundabouts on my morning commute, the Murphystown roundabout and the Leopardstown roundabout. People get into the right hand lane when turning left on the Murphystown roundabout and then get into the left lane when turning right for the Leopardstown roundabout. At first I put this down to idiots in the wrong lane but now everyone is doing it - I must be missing something because I've always thought you must always stay in the right hand lane when turning right at a roundabout and likewise you stay in the left hand lane when turning left.

Now the thing is the Murphystown roundabout has no straight through exit, its basically a T-junction with a roundabout. The Leopardstown is a regualr roundabout but with 2 approach and exit lanes.

The rules of the road would suggest I'm right: roundabouts. But like I say, pretty much everyone is doing it and now my wife is at me to calm down in the mornings because everyone is doing it so I must be the one who is wrong :mad:

Here it is on google maps.

Bluetonic · 27-10-2009 8:37am

Quite simple, left lane exit one and two, right lane exit two and subsequent.

Thats the rules regardless of people coming on the talking about staying in the right lane if the exit past 12 O'Clock.

MagicMarker · 27-10-2009 8:40am

If it's just a T junction with a roundabout then it shouldn't really matter what lane you're in turning right.

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 8:43am

Bluetonic wrote: »

Quite simple, left lane exit one and two, right lane exit two and subsequent.

Thats the rules regardless of people coming on the talking about staying in the right lane if the exit past 12 O'Clock.

Edit: sorry yes that makes perfect sense, thanks.

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 8:44am

MagicMarker wrote: »

If it's just a T junction with a roundabout then it shouldn't really matter what lane you're in turning right.

It does because its 2 roundabouts side by side so as soon as I turn at roundabout 1 I need to be in the right hand lane for roundabout 2, which I can't do because there's usually a car along side me turning left from the right hand lane.

trad · 27-10-2009 8:47am

It is very hard to generalise for roundabouts as all roundabouts are not symmetric. Whilst the "rules of the road" give advice on how best to encounter a roundabout these are usually for a roundabout with 4 exits each at 90 degrees to each other. The best advice I can give is to do what is safe as opposed to "correct". Too many people die defending the right of way.

wellboytoo · 27-10-2009 8:49am

You are correct as regards the rules of the road, but to alleviate volume pressure on roundabouts some Councils are changing the rules and you should look for signage before the roundabout, this is becoming very common all over the country.
So rules of the road apply but can be over ridden by localised rule changes

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 8:56am

trad wrote: »

It is very hard to generalise for roundabouts as all roundabouts are not symmetric. Whilst the "rules of the road" give advice on how best to encounter a roundabout these are usually for a roundabout with 4 exits each at 90 degrees to each other. The best advice I can give is to do what is safe as opposed to "correct". Too many people die defending the right of way.

That certainly seems to be what is happening because like I say everyone is at it now and it makes me look like I'm the dangerous one for not conforming to the norm. Doesn't help with the wife beside me giving me an earful at the same time :P

I can live with the Murphystown roundabout but turning right from the left lane on the Leopardstown roundabout, which is a major roundabout, is just pure stupidity and there's no way I'm conforming to that carry on.

It'd be interseting to hear from other boardsies who are familiar with these roundabouts. If I knew what the thinking behind it was maybe I might calm down about it.

trad · 27-10-2009 9:00am

When you say turning right at the Leopardstown Roundabout are you referring to the one at the top of the Junction 14 exit ramp or the one at Brewery Road?

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 9:03am

wellboytoo wrote: »

You are correct as regards the rules of the road, but to alleviate volume pressure on roundabouts some Councils are changing the rules and you should look for signage before the roundabout, this is becoming very common all over the country.
So rules of the road apply but can be over ridden by localised rule changes

Yeah theres no signage other than the regular roundabout sign. And I think they only ever change it to say left lane is for left only. I don't think they're stupid enough to tell people to turn left from a right hand lane.

About thesee signs though, I'm convinced people who see these signs then think that that is the rule for all roundabouts. A good example is heading down to the Dundrum centre from balinteer/M50 direction. There's a series of roundabouts and one or two of them say left lane is for left only. but everyone applies this rule to all of the roundabouts on that road. Its another case where I'm constantly avoiding an accident and looking like I'm the eejit in the wrong because pretty much everyone else is doing the wrong thing. I mean going staight on (exit 2) from the left hand lane while someone else is also going straight on from the right hand lane and there is only room for one car on the exit lane.

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 9:04am

trad wrote: »

When you say turning right at the Leopardstown Roundabout are you referring to the one at the top of the Junction 14 exit ramp or the one at Brewery Road?

Junction 14 exit ramp, coming from R113. Sorry maybe its not called the Leopardstown roundabout.

Zube · 27-10-2009 9:09am

Bluetonic wrote: »

Quite simple, left lane exit one and two, right lane exit two and subsequent. Thats the rules regardless of people coming on the talking about staying in the right lane if the exit past 12 O'Clock.

What makes you say that? The ROTR don't mention first or second exits, only left, straight on and "any later" exit.

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 9:13am

So if you're looking at it on google maps, I'm coming from the R113 turning left, which has two approach lanes. Then going right on the big roundabout by the M50, which has 2 approach lanes also. The map makes it look like there is no straight on exit but there is. It goes into the ESB. Maybe thats what it is, maybe people think it doesn't count as an exit? The roundabouts are also a lot closer than google maps shows. There's very little time to get into the right hand lane when cars are coming along side you blocking you. It normally involves me pulling in on top of someone forcing them to brake. Interestingly I've never been beeped, suggesting amybe they know they are breaking the rules?

Here it is on google maps.

trad · 27-10-2009 9:55am

Why would you pull out forcing someone to brake?

When changing lanes you must yield to the motorist in the other lane whether you consider them to be in the right or wrong lane. This seems a more serious issue that being in what is percieved to be the "correct" lane.

I think you are stressing yourself out over some minor "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" point and as you are travelling with your wife and children your responsibility is to drive safely. If it is working safely for everyone else what is the point in putting youself and your family at risk to prove a point.

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 10:14am

trad wrote: »

Why would you pull out forcing someone to brake?

I'm turning left as is the car beside me. The problem with breaking the rules to fit in with what most other people are doing is that what happens if someone is in my position and there's an accident. Its my fault because I'm breaking the rules. Breaking the rules to avoid an accident is not very good advice when breaking the rules could very well lead me into an accident and put me in the blame.

That's fine though, I can deal with the Murphystown roundabout. In fact, a colleague has come up with a great suggestion which is to drive in between lanes on my approach, blocking any car from going alongside me. I know thats also breaking the rules but its guaranteed not to cause an accident.

trad wrote: »

I think you are stressing yourself out over some minor "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" point and as you are travelling with your wife and children your responsibility is to drive safely. If it is working safely for everyone else what is the point in putting youself and your family at risk to prove a point.

OK thats fair enough for the smaller roundabout but there is nothing minor about turning right from the left hand lane on a major roundabout. btw, I would consider your attitude of its ok to break the rules to be exactly why we have such high fatalities on Irish roads. To think that someone can get killed on our roads and people will say its because he stuck to the rules. If only he was breaking the rules like everyone else he might still be alive. It's a bit scary but evidently that seems to be the common attitude out there.

MagicMarker · 27-10-2009 10:18am

Driving in the middle of two lanes sounds rather stupid tbh.

trad · 27-10-2009 10:28am

OP, I speak as someone who spent years enforcing the traffic laws in this country. If councils built perfect junctions of uniform widths and properly laid out that would make life easy for motorists.

Two wrongs do not make a right. If you are pulling out in front of another motorist causing them to brake that is failure to yield when changing lanes and if you do it intentionally that is bordering on careless /dangerous driving.

The second roundabout at the J14 M50 and Leopardstown Road was designed and built by the National Roads Authority so perhaps you should write to them and point out your percieved fault with their road design part of which is the entrance to the ESB yard, I can't recall if it is designated as an exit on the signage.

yknaa · 27-10-2009 10:31am

True. It is the same coming of the M1 North at the Rush/Donabate/Skerries exit. Signage at the roundabout alerts drivers taking the Rush exit (3rd exit) to go into the left or right lane.

wellboytoo wrote: »

You are correct as regards the rules of the road, but to alleviate volume pressure on roundabouts some Councils are changing the rules and you should look for signage before the roundabout, this is becoming very common all over the country.
So rules of the road apply but can be over ridden by localised rule changes

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 10:34am

trad wrote: »

OP, I speak as someone who spent years enforcing the traffic laws in this country. If councils built perfect junctions of uniform widths and properly laid out that would make life easy for motorists.

Two wrongs do not make a right. If you are pulling out in front of another motorist causing them to brake that is failure to yield when changing lanes and if you do it intentionally that is bordering on careless /dangerous driving.

The second roundabout at the J14 M50 and Leopardstown Road was designed and built by the National Roads Authority so perhaps you should write to them and point out your percieved fault with their road design part of which is the entrance to the ESB yard, I can't recall if it is designated as an exit on the signage.

Wow, someone who spent years enforcing the rules of the road publically advising someone to break the rules and not only that telling them they are stupid or dangerous for not doing so....only in Ireland.

Like I say therein lies the problem on our roads.

btw, what are you talking about "designated exits". An exit is there, its not a magical exit that only appears if you are an ESB worker.

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 10:35am

MagicMarker wrote: »

Driving in the middle of two lanes sounds rather stupid tbh.

Yeah you're right. I think I'm just going to stick to the rules of the road. What more can I do. With enforcers out there putting the blame on people who are in the right it seems its going to be pretty much pot luck who gets the blame in an accident anyway.

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 10:37am

trad wrote: »

Two wrongs do not make a right. If you are pulling out in front of another motorist causing them to brake that is failure to yield when changing lanes and if you do it intentionally that is bordering on careless /dangerous driving.

Let me be quite clear on this. There are no 2 wrongs in this situation. There are the rules of the road, which is right, and then there is everything else which is wrong. you're telling me I'm wrong for sticking to the rules of the road based on the fact that the majority of people are breaking the rules. It's upside down logic.

Let me put it another way, if everyone obeyed the rules of the road there would be no problem on these roundabouts whatsoever. The only reason I can see for people doing what they are doing is they get to skip ahead a car or two, handy when you're running late for work. Especially handy when "the enforcers" have their backs if it comes to an accident.

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 11:00am

There is also a very obvious flaw in this upside down "Irish" version of the rules of the road. Lets assume its correct to be in the left lane when turning right and its correct to be in the right lane turning left. What happens when two cars are side by side going in opposite directions. i.e one is turning left and the other is turning right.

It reminds me of some sort of Kerry man joke :rolleyes:

MagicMarker · 27-10-2009 11:05am

lol, I've only just realized what roads you were talking about, I should really pay attention.

OP, all cars turn right at that roundabout and any car going into the ESB is always in the left lane. If I was coming from that direction I wouldn't have any problem turning right in the left hand lane.

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 11:14am

MagicMarker wrote: »

lol, I've only just realized what roads you were talking about, I should really pay attention.

OP, all cars turn right at that roundabout and any car going into the ESB is always in the left lane. If I was coming from that direction I wouldn't have any problem turning right in the left hand lane.

Ah good. Someone who knows the roundabout. So can you explain the reasoning behind it or is it a case you know its against the rules but "ah sure what harm can it do". Because the problem I have is when I'm in the right hand lane turning right I need to be where you are when I exit, which I obviously can't and get forced to stay in the wrong lane approaching the next roundabout which I believe is the one thats called the Leopardstown roundabout. It's no big deal, I get across eventually but thats not the point. Or more seriously, as has happened a couple of times, not see you at all and nearly have an accident.

btw, can you not go straight on in the right hand lane of a 2 lane roundabout? I'm sure anyone going into the ESB knows to stay to the left lane because people are turning right from their left hand side, but technically, by the book (or someone using it for the first time), they could be going straight on while you're turning right, i.e smack into the side of them.

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 12:57pm

trad (taken from the other thread) wrote:

If all roundabouts have 4 exits at 90 degrees to each other with the same number of lanes at each exit you could have "rules" that can be understood and used. Every roundabout is different and should be approached in the context of its' particular layout. In the part of the world where I live there is a roundabout with 4 exits where 2 of the exit roads run parallel, another with 4 exits where one exit is at 45 degrees to the roundabout, and another with 6 exits, one of them a shopping centre car park.

The one thing you will discover about the "rules of the road" is if you are involved in a collision and you go to Court quoting the ROTR you will be very quickly told that they have no legal standing, they are merely suggestions.

OP, I know it's a pain in the butt learning to drive and doing what your instructor is telling you to be correct only to see everyone else doing somethin different but you have to understand that the people who issue the ROTR also run the driving test so you have to drive their way in order to pass your driving test. Then you can apply common sense to your driving.

trad, can I ask what your profession is? You seem to be suggesting that you are somehow involved in law enforcement but then based on the advice you are giving you're either one of those chip on the shoulder gardai or just simply making stuff up. How on earth can you suggest to a learner driver that the rules of the road are not legally enforceable?!! Can I use that excuse the next time I get a speeding or parking ticket?

And what has the layout of the roundabout got to do with anything? You're either going left, right, all the way around or something in between. It doesn't have to be symmetrical.

Jesus, I wish I never came on here cause all its done is confirm my worst fears that the people out there doing the dangerous driving honestly believe they are in the right. To me that is far worse than someone breaking the rules and knowing they are doing it.

trad · 27-10-2009 1:00pm

My last contribution on this topic.

Don't die defending the right of way. If you think you are right and everyone else is wrong and you want to continue pulling out in front of people causing them to break that is your right.

20goto10 · 27-10-2009 1:08pm

trad wrote: »

My last contribution on this topic.

Don't die defending the right of way. If you think you are right and everyone else is wrong and you want to continue pulling out in front of people causing them to break that is your right.

Thank god thats your last contribution because your advice is truly awful and had I a way of finding out your real identity I would be reporting it to the authorities (if indeed you are in law enforcement of some kind).

If I am in the left lane turning left and someone is doing the same from the right hand lane and an accident happens it is not because I am the one pulling out in front of them it is because they are making an illegal manoeuvre trying to squeeze by to get a car ahead in their rush to the next red light.

Roundabouts

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