Trust, lies and communication (with a side order of Japanese hostess bars!)

writestoomuch

First off, apologies for the long post. If you don't want to read the detailed ins and outs of someone else's relationship probably best to quit now. But if you're up for the ride (and it's a long one) I'd be interested in feedback from completely non-related parties.

The issue is trust, lies and communication.

(With a side issue of hostess bars! )

Did I warn you it was long?

OK, so, I'm in a serious relationship with a dude from a completely different culture and background from me. 8 months, co-habiting (very successfully) for the last two.

Him: Japanese divorcee, mid 30s, with a chequered sexual past (including past infidelity and paying for sexual services), poor money management skills, occasional depression, and the very Japanese tendency to prefer a harmony-maintaining lie over an uncomfortable truth. (Oh yeah, looks great on paper don't it? :rolleyes:) He has really picked himself up over the last few years, though, dug himself out of debt and got his life on track. Also, for what its worth, he's a popular lad, and his close friends are all a decent bunch who I respect and trust and who speak highly of him.

Me: British student, late 20s, strictly monogamous, veteran of a couple of long-term relationships, with a strong aversion to lies, a lot of insecurity regarding sexual infidelity, and (unfortunately), a fear of fully trusting the guys I date. This last point is has really got itself entrenched in my psyche recently, after having just come out of a 7 year relationship with a genuinely decent bloke, who nevertheless ended up going off with someone else in the end and lying through his teeth about it. It's given me a very wary and brutally realistic outlook on human relationships and the lies on which they are so often based...

This does not necessarily look like a match made in heaven does it? And yet, it works. We've found a lot to fall for in each other; our strengths and weaknesses seem to complement each other, the sex is great (and frequent!;)), and we enjoy each others' company and conversation. Although it has been very tough on occasion, we've both changed through being together and learned to accommodate each other's ways of thinking. He is loving, attentive, clearly proud to be with me and always considerate of my well-being and happiness. I like to think I am the same for him. Most of all, despite the language difference, we really have the communication thing down. When issues come up we are able to talk about them, and they get resolved in a mutually understanding way.

The thing is, I've caught him out in a few lies. Nothing major, but as many posters on this same topic can attest to, it's not the content of the lie as much as the lie itself...

The first was a typical one, fairly early on in the relationship, before we really knew each other well. A lie about where he'd been one evening. He'd been out with friends at a hostess bar and had mailed me (of his own volition I might add!) to say goodnight and that he was getting an early night. Note to the uninitiated in the wondrous ways of dodgy Japanese night-life: these things are not sex shops. It's "pay fat wads of cash for the privilege of chatting to pretty young ladies while getting plastered" -- a weird cultural concept perhaps, and it took a fair bit of getting used to. However, most places are strictly no-touch, and the girls are generally professionals whose job it is to provide fun and flirty companionship without ever actually delivering anything more. So while I consider the whole thing a massive waste of money, I don't have a problem with it on the infidelity front. It's also worth noting a couple of things here: I hang out a lot with male friends, a couple of whom I have "history" with, and he has the good grace to allow it without insecurity or complaint. Also, he'd been open about the hostess bar thing from the outset of the relationship, so I knew he had hostess friends, some of whose bars he frequented. However, I will state that it took me a long time to fully come to terms with the concept and become convinced that he wasn't out at those places screwing girls right, left and centre. Now I am basically convinced. Then, I wasn't.

The lie was a big shocker, because it was not only blatant but unnecessary. I had not asked to know know where he was and would not have expected him to volunteer the information. So why fabricate some story about going to bed? It destroyed the foundations of the tentative trust I'd built for him and I was on the brink of calling the whole thing off. It was an extremely difficult period.

Yet, we talked it out. Interestingly, he had a hard time initially seeing that there might have been anything wrong with his actions. At the risk of sounding all "Japanese Culture 101", my experience has taught me that it often places less value on "Truth" and more on "Harmony". (As in: Why worry someone if they don't need to know? A very convenient take on white lies that allows the liar to feel all noble about it too... :mad:) He came to agree that to lie was wrong, and that it was a harsh thing to do to me, and that by doing it he'd upset me greatly. However, to his mind it was really a little white lie to avoid trouble, to avoid worrying me, and to avoid having to explain everything down to the last detail. And I admit that I can see exactly why he'd do it. Because I *am* insecure, and I *would* have wanted details, and I *would* have needed reassurance, and I *would* have worried.

So the incident passed. We talked. We got closer. I got to understand a lot about his past and his attitudes towards sex and love. He was open and communicative. I made it clear that there were pretty much only two things I couldn't take in a relationship: outright fabrications and physical infidelity. He said "fair enough". We decided to keep going. It was clear he was making an effort. He started going out of his way to be open even when it was not needed, and I loved him all the more for it. He would call up and let me know when he was going out and would tell me where. I never had any evidence to make me doubt these stories and hugely appreciated the obvious effort he was making. I got to know some of his hostess friends and never got any sense of anything being "off".

Time passed and he came clean about his depression; he was skipping work, he couldn't take his job; didn't know what to do. We went together to get him help. Him being able to confide in me very clearly took a huge weight off his shoulders. He was amazed I wasn't judging him for being "weak". We grew very close. His commitment and dedication to me became more evident by the day. My feelings for him grew too.

However, there were still ups and downs. I couldn't fully recover from the lie, and struggled daily with trust, obsessing about every last detail of things he said, desperately checking for inconsistencies. I'd get paranoid. We'd talk it out. What he would say would often be both intelligent and reasonable, and we'd be back to square one: both understanding each others' feelings but unable to change the basic situation.

At some point I started looking through his things. I am not proud of this. I realise that it was wrong, and fully a breach of trust in its own way, and I undertook it knowing that he would be well within his rights to dump me for it. Yet, to my eternal shame, it is a compulsion that I am sometimes unable to resist...

True to my stubborn-headed adherence to the principle of "be open about everything even if it is to the detriment of you and/or the relationship", I confided in him about my sneaking. Again, things got talked out. I am self-aware enough to understand what I was doing and why. He was as understanding as I could wish for -- angry, but open and reasonable. I only looked at his phone once, and was disgusted and shocked enough at myself that asked him to lock it after that. (That had crossed a line in my mind. I'd rather be taken for a fool than live a life obsessed with checking someone's phonecalls and mails...) To him, that was a huge breach of trust. But he understood it and forgave it, although it was hard for him. Importantly, we were able to approach the whole ridiculous situation with a healthy dose of humour.

Despite my occasional craziness, everything was going basically well, and a couple of months back he moved in. It has been very nice indeed. He also started being completely open about his money situation. He said he needed to sort out his spending habits and asked for my help. At his own request, I'm managing his money now. This has the practical upshot that I really do know pretty much exactly what he's getting up to these days, at least if it involves any kind of financial transaction. This is reassuring, shall we say! And again, I think it speaks volumes about his determination to be open and honest.

So everything is going well. I am gradually, getting my trust back, and/or learning to relax about the whole thing and accept that a few white lies should be allowed to slip, provided he's not screwing around, which I don't think he is. If there's one thing I absolutely do not doubt, it is his feelings for me. But then I catch him out again. Twice. I won't go into details here apart from to say (a) I understand why he lied (self-protection, fear of losing me, guilt), and (b) I have no evidence to suggest there was anything dodgy going on. His story checks out. However. After everything we'd talked about and everything he said he'd understood, it really takes the biscuit. Again, we talked it out. He made every effort to explain. He was ashamed, although clearly saw it as less of a big deal than I did. But he understood that my trust in him was blown again.

So here I am. Here we are. We're trying. He's trying. That much is clear. Our everyday life together is fun, fulfilling and rewarding. I understand, and have understood from the beginning, that his actions are ultimately not my responsibility, and if he wants to cheat, he will find a way to do so. (And that if he does I will probably eventually catch him at it and deal with it at the time as I see fit.) I do not currently believe that he is cheating. I am less sure about whether or not he ever *has*, but if asked to bet on it, would place money on him having been faithful. But he lies. He lies about little things to protect himself. And I sneak. I obsess.

The stupid thing is, we are closer now than we have ever been. No, I can't fully trust anything he says at the moment, but, hey, we both understand that and are able to deal with the whole situation with a sense of humour. (He says he understands that I can't trust now, but he's waiting for the time in 3 years when I realise his basic honesty and greatness and reward him with mountains of gifts... ).

Yup, that was long.

If anyone's made it this far, (thanks!) what I'm really interested in is outside opinions, of any kind, about this whole thing. I have a suspicion I may come out looking like a gullible fool from this, I'm not sure. However I know what I'm going to do for the moment. There are a lot of good things about this relationship. He's innocent until proven guilty as far as I'm concerned. Whatever he may or may not be, his heart is in the right place, and I'm in this for the long haul unless I get any actual evidence of infidelity, at which point we review things.

But... thoughts? Opinions? Comments? (Other than "good god, woman, are you completely incapable of being concise?!")

Thanks for reading.

daisybelle2008

You are carrying some baggage in the form of trust issues from previous relationships where you were cheated on. The problem is he comes from a culture where white lies are acceptable and he has a history of cheating.

You cannot change any of those things. But if you continue in the relationship you are going to have to get past them. The fact you are checking up on him and your post suggest that you are having difficulty with that. You should seriously consider whether this relationship is a good fit for you going forward.

writestoomuch

daisybelle2008 wrote: »

You are carrying some baggage in the form of trust issues from previous relationships where you were cheated on. The problem is he comes from a culture where white lies are acceptable and he has a history of cheating.

You cannot change any of those things. But if you continue in the relationship you are going to have to get past them. The fact you are checking up on him and your post suggest that you are having difficulty with that. You should seriously consider whether this relationship is a good fit for you going forward.

Thank you for the reply. This is sound advice.

I know that I have chosen a particularly difficult partner for myself given my personality and past experiences. I am hoping that together we will be able to adapt and that I will be able to work through the issues I have. I am making some progress, but it is hard. If things get worse, or have not improved by the time it comes for us to choose what to do with our future (in a year or so when I graduate), then I suppose I would seriously consider calling the whole thing off. But at the moment I like what we have enough to want to give it a proper try.

Thanks again .

Beruthiel

writestoomuch wrote: »

But at the moment I like what we have enough to want to give it a proper try.

Then do just that.
Relax into the relationship and let it go where it may.
Sometimes when you just ease up and let go, things get an awful lot better.
You are both trying and happy in the relationship, that's enough for now.
Hope it works out for you both.

OxO-CuBe

You have definitely some trust issues and I know it doesn't feel like it but you will feel better after the relationship has matured some (Time is a great healer ). 3 years seems like a long time but in the grand scheme of things it’s not too long for a relationship. So my advice would be to stay the course. No one is completely true (i.e. small lies) to their partner as white lies do serve a purpose. That purpose is to put your partner at ease and not have them worry too much about what you are doing. Just realise what these lies are for and see them in that context. I am not saying that you should completely believe everything he says but you should be aware that he is not trying to cheat on you at every opportunity.
From what you have posted I can see that you have a relationship where trust is really important and you have great communication (which is fantastic) but you will have to learn to trust him more and as I have already said this will come as your relationship matures.

So the main point that you should take from this reply is that you know that you have trust issues and you seem to think that everyone is against you (I know this from experience) but until you learn to trust and forgive you will be missing something from your relationship. So the best advice that I can give you would be to stop taking notes of everything he says (to be digested later) and learn to believe that he is on your side not against you. And as soon as you do this you can start to live the best your relationship has to offer.

Best of luck as you seem to have found someone that is worth working for

kittenkiller

Well you seem far to eloquent to go on Jeremy Kyle for a lie detector test anyway!

Have you asked him straight out if he's cheated?
If I really suspected my bf of cheating there's no way I could list off how good we are together and how fulfilling our lives together are to be honest, as you have done.

Have you tried counselling?
You both have issues and you're both willing to work on them, so it might work well for you.

Other than that the only thing I can suggest is that you let him carry on as innocent until proven guilty or caught out some other way and try to let the nagging doubt filter right back to the depths of your mind and carry on regardless.

You seem to have a very good relationship that you're willing to fight for, it'd be a shame to let a nagging doubt ruin things.

writestoomuch

> Beruthiel and OxO-CuBe:

Thanks for the feedback. Both useful and sensitive. And good to hear.

What OxO-CuBe said about believing people are against me hit home. I had not put it that way to myself before, but it's pretty spot on. Identifying the problem is the first step, so thank you!

> kittenkiller:

Thanks for the advice. I have indeed asked him outright. He insists he hasn't.

To be honest, I don't know if I *really* suspect him of cheating. I'm in this sad situation these days where my paranoia sometimes overwhelms me, and at those times, yes, I do suspect. But I can't really trust my feelings at those times since they're completely off-the-scale paranoid crazy . At my more rational times I often feel confident he hasn't. Also I feel reasonably confident that he *isn't*, now. :rolleyes:

With regards to counselling, I have thought about it and would like to get it, even if only for myself. Unfortunately it's not practical at the moment for financial and linguistic reasons, which is a shame...

Thanks again

kittenkiller

If he says he hasn't cheated and you've caught him out before (indicating that he's not the best liar) I'd be inclined to believe him.
You can't hold someone's past relationships against them and you can't live your life expecting bad things to happen.

When you're feeling overly-paranoid do yourself a favour and find a distraction.
Being left alone with those types of thoughts won't do you any good.

If you can't shift them then invest in counselling by yourself (it *is* an investment after all, nothing more important than your health and well being), you can make appointments that suit your schedule and budget and see after the first few if you've picked up any coping/distraction skills.
If you think they're no use you can ditch it, but it'd be well worth a try at least.

Best of luck OP.