Ballycotton "10" date moved - why?

footing

Has anyone else heard the news that the organisers of the Ballycotton "10" have been told at this late stage that they can't have the date they booked about a year ago for their 2010 race on March 7?
Reason? AAI is only now getting around to organising its calendar and discovered that Ras na h Eireann is fixed for Feb 28 - their preferred date for the National Cross-Country Championships. So they tell Ballycotton to shove off and find another date.
How about that for breath-taking contempt? Every year race directors and organsations such as the BHAA, NIAAA and IMRA prepare their calendars well in advance - as AAI should do but doesn't. The efficient race directors then have to pray that AAI won't dump on them.
In September, FIVE major road races were given permit for one weekend. Two of the races were offered Eu500 for the first man and woman; in other words, they were good races and needed a decent crowd to break even. Among them was the Rockford Rood Tiles 4 miles road race which was celebrating its 30th anniversary. Because of the clash, less than a hundred turned out.
Two weeks earlier, a charity race in Mulingar was giving a permit, sucking all the life out of the Rennicks Cup. A few weeks ago, the Simon "5" in the Phoenix Park got a permit for the SAME Day as the Teachers Cross-Country in Castleknock. The Jingle Bells 5k has been forced to accept a Saturday for this year's race.
It's time for us to defend our races and the good people who organise them. It's WAY past time that AAI started to realise that its job is to listen to us - its 20,000 ordinary members - and not just to the tiny few at the elite end of the sport.
Let's start with getting the Ballycotton "10" back to its rightful date on Sunday March 7 - not March 21, which is the only alternative. Petition your club club, your county sec and the AAI competition sec Brendan McDaid. DO IT NOW!

Condo131

The AAI have decided that the National Inter-Clubs XC is to be held nearer to the World XC championships and have, in their infinite wisdom :rolleyes:, decided on the first Sunday in March. [Obviously there's nothing major on their radar for that w/e :rolleyes::mad:]. Therefore they will not permit another race on that w/e.

Even if they were to allow it, very many of the top athletes would be running in the inter-clubs, taking from the quality of Ballycotton. In any case, a lot of the Ballycotton organisers, stewards and other helpers would also be taking part in the Inter-clubs, causing further problems for Ballycotton.

The event might have been organised for March 14th, however Ballycotton informed the Cloyne Point-to-point horse racing people, quite some time ago, that Ballycotton would be on the first w/e in March, so the P2P was scheduled for the second w/e. Plans for the P2P are well advanced, so it's too late to swop the dates.

Two years ago, I put forward motions to the AAI congress aimed at compelling the AAI to draft a calendar of events. The motion was not passed.

Every year the papers bring out wall-chart sports calendars, including horse-racing, GAA, soccer, athletics, rowing, boxing etc. The Athletics calendar is notable for its absence of AAI events. Every other sport, and notabley rowing, has listed even the smallest event.

A calendar is a no-brainer. If you have one, you can see what else is on and reschedule appropriately, if necessary. If you don't have one, you are just going to cause foul-ups, as with Ballycotton - this isn't the first time that the AAI have fouled-up like this, but it's one of the biggest instances.

One only has to look at the AAI's Events Calendar for October, November and December to see that their system is a shambles and has been for many years.

Stupid_Private

Gotta say I'm absolutely delighted with the change and won't be petitioning anyone. A two week gap between the Nationals and Ballycotton means I can race both of them. I'm no Vinny Mulvey and capable of finishing third in the nationals one week and winning Ballycotton the next. I need extra recovery after cross country races - one week just won't do!

A few weeks ago, the Simon "5" in the Phoenix Park got a permit for the SAME Day as the Teachers Cross-Country in Castleknock.

The running of the Simon Run and the BHAA XC race affected no one. I was out watching the Simon Run and the vast majority of those taking part wouldn't turn up to BHAA race even if there was no clash. I doubt the BHAA lost more than 5 people from the 695 that took part in the fun run.

The Jingle Bells 5k has been forced to accept a Saturday for this year's race.

If you look at the calendar from last year you'll notice that the date this race had last year (Sunday 14th December) clashes with the Euro XC this year. Damn you AAI!!!

Racing Flat

footing wrote: »

Has anyone else heard the news that the organisers of the Ballycotton "10" have been told at this late stage that they can't have the date they booked about a year ago for their 2010 race on March 7?
....Let's start with getting the Ballycotton "10" back to its rightful date on Sunday March 7 - not March 21, which is the only alternative. Petition your club club, your county sec and the AAI competition sec Brendan McDaid. DO IT NOW!

But am I right in thinking that they could hold the Ballycotton race on Feb 28th or March 7th if they wanted, but due to the clash they have decided themselves to move it - i.e. it hasn't been forced upon them, they are making the move to increase the chances of getting a high quality field at the top end? In fairness the change is so far in advance that surely it's acceptable?

Maybe alternative action could be to petition Ballycotton and ask them to keep the original date - you are not bothered about the Senior Inter-Clubs?

footing

Condo131 wrote: »

The AAI have decided that the National Inter-Clubs XC is to be held nearer to the World XC championships and have, in their infinite wisdom :rolleyes:, decided on the first Sunday in March. [Obviously there's nothing major on their radar for that w/e :rolleyes::mad:]. Therefore they will not permit another race on that w/e.

Even if they were to allow it, very many of the top athletes would be running in the inter-clubs, taking from the quality of Ballycotton. In any case, a lot of the Ballycotton organisers, stewards and other helpers would also be taking part in the Inter-clubs, causing further problems for Ballycotton.

The event might have been organised for March 14th, however Ballycotton informed the Cloyne Point-to-point horse racing people, quite some time ago, that Ballycotton would be on the first w/e in March, so the P2P was scheduled for the second w/e. Plans for the P2P are well advanced, so it's too late to swop the dates.

Two years ago, I put forward motions to the AAI congress aimed at compelling the AAI to draft a calendar of events. The motion was not passed.

Every year the papers bring out wall-chart sports calendars, including horse-racing, GAA, soccer, athletics, rowing, boxing etc. The Athletics calendar is notable for its absence of AAI events. Every other sport, and notabley rowing, has listed even the smallest event.

A calendar is a no-brainer. If you have one, you can see what else is on and reschedule appropriately, if necessary. If you don't have one, you are just going to cause foul-ups, as with Ballycotton - this isn't the first time that the AAI have fouled-up like this, but it's one of the biggest instances.

One only has to look at the AAI's Events Calendar for October, November and December to see that their system is a shambles and has been for many years.

Hear, hear.
You're precisely underlining my point - that AAI should organise their calendar just like everyone else, ie, months if not years in advance. As it is, they leave everything to the last minute and then expect race organisers to move aside for them if they want a particular date for a championship race.

footing

Stupid_Private wrote: »

The running of the Simon Run and the BHAA XC race affected no one. I was out watching the Simon Run and the vast majority of those taking part wouldn't turn up to BHAA race even if there was no clash. I doubt the BHAA lost more than 5 people from the 695 that took part in the fun run.

It's not the clash - it's the principal. The Simon race shouldn't have got a permit for that day because another race was taking place nearby. There has also been a situation where two races have taken part in the Phoenix Park on the same day.
Charity races need controlling; clubs rely on their road races to bring in the cash they need to keep going. Football, rugby, tennis, GAA, badminton, even swimming don't have the problem of well-meaning "amateurs" organising matches/events to raise money for charity.
Why not give charities the dates clubs can't use; ie, the championship weekends?
Which bring us back to the original problem: AAI doesn't appear to realise that a critical part of its job is to organise the athletics calendar for the benefit of its members.

shels4ever

footing wrote: »

It's not the clash - it's the principal. The Simon race shouldn't have got a permit for that day because another race was taking place nearby. There has also been a situation where two races have taken part in the Phoenix Park on the same day.

As far as I know in this case the 50 mile/Km rule doen't apply. The Bhaa don't need a permit to run their ever from the aai as far as i know, and don't need to move them (although they do in some cases). 2 races 2 markets and 2 orgs involved.

Condo131

Racing Flat wrote: »

But am I right in thinking that they could hold the Ballycotton race on Feb 28th or March 7th if they wanted, but due to the clash they have decided themselves to move it - i.e. it hasn't been forced upon them, they are making the move to increase the chances of getting a high quality field at the top end? In fairness the change is so far in advance that surely it's acceptable?

Maybe alternative action could be to petition Ballycotton and ask them to keep the original date - you are not bothered about the Senior Inter-Clubs?

I'm afraid not. They WILL NOT get a permit for March 7th. They may have pre-empted the AAI refusal, but Ballycotton (and the rest of us organisers) plan MONTHS in advance - sometimes nearly a year, and the AAI regularly leave us hanging till the last moment - so the AAI's decision to move the dates of their own races, without notice/consultation/warning, throws the calendar for the rest of us in absolute chaos.

Long gone time that the AAI started thinking in 20th century terms at least - then they'd only be a century behind the rest of the world! Scheduling and calendars aren't rocket science - at least to most of us!:mad::mad::mad:

footing

shels4ever wrote: »

As far as I know in this case the 50 mile/Km rule doen't apply. The Bhaa don't need a permit to run their ever from the aai as far as i know, and don't need to move them (although they do in some cases). 2 races 2 markets and 2 orgs involved.

A few years ago, the BHAA, the AAI and the schools met up to fix dates and ensure there weren't clashes, which just end up annoying people. If there are two markets, whose fault is that?

Clum

footing wrote: »

Two weeks earlier, a charity race in Mulingar was giving a permit, sucking all the life out of the Rennicks Cup.

Apart from 2 or 3 runners it was all local athletes from Mullingar who took part in that charity run. It was mostly made up of members of Mullingar Harriers and the Midland Triathlon club plus a load of walkers. I think about 10 Harriers would normally have gone to Bohermeen for the Rennicks Cup. As delightful a crowd the Harriers are I don't think a few of them not competing in an event would suck all the life out it!

But I agree that the AAI are slow in releasing their fixtures. Dates for National finals should be decided way in advance.

Stupid_Private

Clum wrote: »

But I agree that the AAI are slow in releasing their fixtures. Dates for National finals should be decided way in advance.

5 months in advance is way in advance in my mind.

I also agree with Racing Flat that the Ballycotton organisers possibly could have stuck with the original date but chose not to so as not to clash with the Seniors. I know Condono131 is closer to things so may have inside knowledge. Last year a permit was granted to a race in Galway on the same day as the Seniors, so why not Cork?

Racing Flat

Condo131 wrote: »

I'm afraid not. They WILL NOT get a permit for March 7th. They may have pre-empted the AAI refusal, but Ballycotton (and the rest of us organisers) plan MONTHS in advance - sometimes nearly a year, and the AAI regularly leave us hanging till the last moment - so the AAI's decision to move the dates of their own races, without notice/consultation/warning, throws the calendar for the rest of us in absolute chaos.

But it shouldn't just be a case of first come first served. Surely in planning any race in late feb/early march any organiser would be aware that Nationals is around then and based on Worlds or other factors may not be the same date every year? And so have a contingency plan.

But I agree more organisation and coordination would be better. I was led to believe that while there is a competitions secretary, there is no fixtures secretary and this may be contributing to the problem.

Finally, what difference does it make whether it's March 21st or March 7th, with this much notice? Is there any issue other than the feeling of being put out, that I am not aware of? Personally I'm looking forward to an extra fortnight of training, potentially better weather being 2 weeks later and also the possibility of a higher quality top end field with it being 2 weeks after rather than a week either side of the Nationals.

I suppose the other thing is if you don't have your permit, or your date booked a year in advance has not been confirmed, don't count your chickens!

RunToFart

Stupid_Private wrote: »

5 months in advance is way in advance in my mind.

I also agree with Racing Flat that the Ballycotton organisers possibly could have stuck with the original date but chose not to so as not to clash with the Seniors. I know Condono131 is closer to things so may have inside knowledge. Last year a permit was granted to a race in Galway on the same day as the Seniors, so why not Cork?

I do not agree that 5 months is way in advance. I find it highly annoying. Athletics Ireland are fully aware what dates major champs are on years in advance and should be advertising what dates their national finals and other key Championship races are 7, 8, 12 months in advance. For example, no date up for indoors yet and we are steam rolling towards November. Anyone training for these who is following a plan to perform at these champs and is looking to organise key training sessions in the final phase of indoor training around some races prior to the champs cannot do so. The only one I can see is the Munster Champs on the Munster site. When are the Leinsters, AAI Games and Nationals? Another one is the Intermediate Cross? When?

This is a little off the point of Ballycotton but I can fully see peoples extreme frustration at having to change dates of road races etc who dont have an interest in Championship stuff. Had these Championship dates been organised and in the public domain then you wouldnt have to now change the date of one of the biggest 10 milers in the country.

I don't understand why they like to keep these things a secret.

Condo131

Racing Flat wrote: »

But it shouldn't just be a case of first come first served.

No it shouldn't. However any established race has a legitimate expectation that they are not going to be 'gazumped'. If the AAI demands, as is their right as the National governing body, a particular date, then they should inform the organisers as early as possible. In the case of Ballycotton, 4 and a half months is, imho, absolutely inadequate. I understand that the AAI had previously indicated that the Inter-cos was going to be earlier, but changed their minds recently.

Racing Flat wrote: »

Surely in planning any race in late feb/early march any organiser would be aware that Nationals is around then and based on Worlds or other factors may not be the same date every year? And so have a contingency plan.

Agreed, however the AAI recently decided to hold the Inter-clubs a week nearer to the Worlds, hence the problem. This was exacerbated by the fact that, based on the expectation that the AAI was going with the earlier dat, Ballycotton told the Cloyne Point to Point organisatiion that the w/e 14th March was free, so while that date would be the ideal fall-back, itis now out for Ballycotton. Can you imagine the main road to Ballycotton, on Sun 14th March, congested with horseboxes and lorries, along with all the P2P spectators AND the cars and buses of some 3000-5000 (including spectators and supporters) - M50 gridlock would pale by comparison!

Racing Flat wrote: »

But I agree more organisation and coordination would be better. I was led to believe that while there is a competitions secretary, there is no fixtures secretary and this may be contributing to the problem.

As I said before, I had several motions before the 2008AAI Congress aimed at compelling the AAI to draft a calendar. The intention was to avoid exactly this type of situation. To say that the AAI is reluctant to introduce a proper calendar is an understatement.

Racing Flat wrote: »

Finally, what difference does it make whether it's March 21st or March 7th, with this much notice? Is there any issue other than the feeling of being put out, that I am not aware of?

Changing one date has a domino effect. As above, the AAI decision has affected events outside the AAI remit. It also has the potential to affect other races. When this blew up recently, Ballycotton, to their credit, widely consulted race organisers to see if changes to race dates, to accomodate, could be made without causing major hassle. It's a pity the AAI couldn't do the same.

Racing Flat wrote: »

I suppose the other thing is if you don't have your permit, or your date booked a year in advance has not been confirmed, don't count your chickens!

My Club knows exactly when our two races will be held for the next coule of years. We put in for our permits about 6 to 8 months in advance. There usually isn't a problem, but we normally don't hear from the AAI, or get our permit until after the event. We did have a problem one year. Our event - a road race in Cork that attracted 133 runners, clashed with the National Indoors in Belfast. The AAI were reluctant to issue a permit due to the clash. I fail to see how a small race in Cork might affect the Belfast event.

A calendar is a prerequisite for proper planning by all. The AAI would know what everyone else is doing and vice-versa. It wouldn't need to be set in stone. Every other IAAF country can do this, so why do we have to have a parochial methodology?

Racing Flat

Agree with everything theer condo131, thanks for the informative response.

footing

Condo131 wrote: »

No it shouldn't. However any established race has a legitimate expectation that they are not going to be 'gazumped'. If the AAI demands, as is their right as the National governing body, a particular date, then they should inform the organisers as early as possible. In the case of Ballycotton, 4 and a half months is, imho, absolutely inadequate. I understand that the AAI had previously indicated that the Inter-cos was going to be earlier, but changed their minds recently.


A calendar is a prerequisite for proper planning by all. The AAI would know what everyone else is doing and vice-versa. It wouldn't need to be set in stone. Every other IAAF country can do this, so why do we have to have a parochial methodology?

Well said Condo131.