Seeking Pkanning Permission- where to start/Costs etc

claireycork

Me and my partner are planning on building on land his family own. He already attending a meeting with the local person incharge of permission who advised him to get an Architect and cut out the engineer. Can ye tell me what cost is involved to hire an architect to draw plans and do we not need an engineer to look at the site- the whole thing is a bit confusing!:(

Mellor

Costs will vary a lot depending on level of involvement.
A engineer may be need for some aspects of the build, but if so he can he hired for that purpose only by the architect.
Basically, if the council say get an architect, its likely that you have a sensitive site and will be looked at closely. I'd get the architect

Mellor

Costs will vary a lot depending on level of involvement.
A engineer may be need for some aspects of the build, but if so he can he hired for that purpose only by the architect.
Basically, if the council say get an architect, its likely that you have a sensitive site and will be looked at closely. I'd get the architect

onq

claireycork wrote: »

Me and my partner are planning on building on land his family own. He already attending a meeting with the local person incharge of permission who advised him to get an Architect and cut out the engineer. Can ye tell me what cost is involved to hire an architect to draw plans and do we not need an engineer to look at the site- the whole thing is a bit confusing!:(

Its an odd way of advising someone but I suppose he meant he needed a designer to plan and design the building for him, not just an engineer to do the structure.

Normally we advise our clients to do the following:

Get a digital survey done of the site with 0.5M levels if it slopes a bit or 0.25 M levels if its flatter.
This should show any services, rivers, adjoining well etc.
You can get by with just an OS Map,

We also advise the clients that they will need to retain a structural engineer before going to site to advise on foundations and structural design.
The Local authority will usually request a Trial Hole and Percolation Test as part of any planning application in a rural area.
You have to show your site is suitable.
Difficult sites may require specialist drainage and engineering solutions.

Appoint an architect, after agreeing a fee package to planning stage with him/her, with caveats about retaining the engineer if required.

We normally allow the engineer discuss fees directly with the client but some engineers still prefer to work through the architect. I used to think it was some sort of professional courtesy, but now I think its just the engineers way of keep things at a distance and allowing the architect to use up his fees taking client calls.

Best of luck with it.

ONQ.

observer

right as no one has given you a figure i will but as previous comments suggest - it varies widly.

I think that were you to approach an architectural practice you could be looking in the region of 6,000 possibly more possibly less to do a fesability scheme and then go to planning.

However you could get someone to do it as a nixer and this could be alot more benifical.

If you are going to building in Cork County I think you need to talk to an architect who has previous experience in the area.

From my experience we have had great difficulty with some planning permission in rural cork.

Engineer may be required depending on the complexity of the build.

If you were interested I could take a look at your scheme for you. If you are interested in hearing more, you can PM me

anyway best of luck with the build

sydthebeat

observer wrote: »

I think that were you to approach an architectural practice you could be looking in the region of 6,000 possibly more possibly less to do a fesability scheme and then go to planning.

However you could get someone to do it as a nixer and this could be alot more benifical.

you can go for a meal in a quality restaurant made from experienced qualified chefs, or you can buy a burger from the back of a chip van.....

both are meals but are both the same thing???

The value you put on the service depends on what you want the end product to be. If you just want a basic shoebox type dwelling (to 'match-in' with all the other ubiquitous shoe box dwellings in the irish countryside) the the nixer route may suit you. However if you want an original one-off dwelling architecturally designed the the nixer route i snot for you.

for example:

Typical irish house



architecturally designed dwelling



both of these dwellings were constructed for roughly the same price. !!!

r-i-tect

Two very good examples Syd.

Wow, flood lights above the bays (hope they are green lights)

As for the drain pipe from the porch

Mellor

Good examples syd, I can see them being used again

icbarros

Very good point sydthebeat.

To answer the question, claireycork should be expecting to pay something between 6 and 10% of construction cost.

kidsbo

Architects and Engineers in Ireland provide pretty much the same services when it comes to domestic works. What you need is a) someone who understands the planning process in Cork and b) someone you feel comfortable dealing with. It doesnt really matter if they are an architect or an engineer. We used an engineers in innishannon (am I allowed give their details?) and they were brillant. The site was in a scenic area but they came up with a great design that went through planning without any hassle.

onq

kidsbo wrote: »

Architects and Engineers in Ireland provide pretty much the same services when it comes to domestic works. What you need is a) someone who understands the planning process in Cork and b) someone you feel comfortable dealing with. It doesnt really matter if they are an architect or an engineer. We used an engineers in innishannon (am I allowed give their details?) and they were brillant. The site was in a scenic area but they came up with a great design that went through planning without any hassle.

I think if you look at sydthebeat's post above you'll see the difference between one end of the territory and the other in terms of quality of work.
In fact even that is wrong because some thought has been put into the Southfork option and the workmanship in terms of Part D looks fine..

In relation to the design, you can argue that either a disinterested architect or diligent engineer might produce the Southfork option, but I think you will agree that only an architect confident in his ability and competent to address the wide rage of issues arising with on-the-edge design work could have produced the latter.

Mind you even the Southfork option looked at above would need at a minimum a good architectural technician doing the detailing if rendered block cavity walling or timbe frame was being used, particularly in relation to the end wall sunroom cavity wall trays detail.

Whatever your opinion is in relation to the equality or otherwise of architects and engineers, architects claim competence over the wide range of the building regulations - engineers, by their own terms of reference, only deal with Part A - Structure.

This is where costs of fees are sometimes judged unfairly between architects and engineers.
Engineers make no claims in relation to overall building design, only in relation to structural design.
You are not getting the same competences and the sad truth is some people cannot tell the difference.
This is where the government's renewed committment to raising awareness of architectural quality and design of the built environment is to be praised.

ONQ.

BenK

kidsbo wrote: »

Architects and Engineers in Ireland provide pretty much the same services when it comes to domestic works. What you need is a) someone who understands the planning process in Cork and b) someone you feel comfortable dealing with. It doesnt really matter if they are an architect or an engineer. We used an engineers in innishannon (am I allowed give their details?) and they were brillant. The site was in a scenic area but they came up with a great design that went through planning without any hassle.

I wouldn't agree with this at all. I think the images in sydthebeat's post sums it up well. I think the first image would be typical of what you should expect to get from an engineer with regards to design, from my experience anyway. Obviously your engineer will offer excellent help when it comes to structural issues, drainage, trial hole and percolation tests etc. which the architect is not trained to do but if you employ an engineer to design your home, expect a typical standard run of the mill house.

I'd imagine you were advised to employ an architect due to the nature of the site in question (sensitive rural location maybe) and the architect's expertise in design would obviously be more beneficial for this. Make sure they are a member of the RIAI also (Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland). Whoever you do employ I would second that they have a strong understanding of the planning process but it doesn't necessarily have to be in your particular area. I would normally say that an Architectural Technologist/Technician could also be suitable for you but the fact that you have been advised to get an architect means you probably should. I won't go into the differences between themselves and architects here as it's definitely been covered in the construction and planning forum...

As for the cost it's difficult to advise without knowing more information. As icbarros has said expect to pay 6-10% of construction cost overall (possibly more if it's a particularly original/difficult design), with approx 30-35% payable on submission of the planning application and the rest payable in further stages should you wish to retain the architect for the duration of the job (tender stage, construction stage, certification of the project on completion). If you only wish to utilise the architect for the planning stage most would be happy to do the work just up to this point (agree all this beforehand) but I'd advise retaining them for the whole job.

BenK

Just saw ONQ's reply there re. architects and engineers, you got there before me!

kidsbo

To suggest that a diligent engineer would only be capable of providing a design comparable to one produced by a disinterested architect is, i think, disingenuous (at best). Any decent engineer with a knowledge of the planning procees would provide a better design than the southfork example. There is no disputing the architectural merit of the second image and I would certainly take it over southfork, but it is not to everybodys taste. The problem I found with the architect we initially used was that he insisted on forcing his tastes on me. The engineer we employed listened to what I wanted and tried to incorporate that into a design that worked for the site. Perhaps I am unfairly applying my experience of one architect but I would still suggest that it really doesnt make a great difference whether you use an architect or an engineer as long as they are good to deal with and understand the planning procees (including suitable design).

sydthebeat

kidsbo wrote: »

To suggest that a diligent engineer would only be capable of providing a design comparable to one produced by a disinterested architect is, i think, disingenuous (at best). Any decent engineer with a knowledge of the planning procees would provide a better design than the southfork example. There is no disputing the architectural merit of the second image and I would certainly take it over southfork, but it is not to everybodys taste. The problem I found with the architect we initially used was that he insisted on forcing his tastes on me. The engineer we employed listened to what I wanted and tried to incorporate that into a design that worked for the site. Perhaps I am unfairly applying my experience of one architect but I would still suggest that it really doesnt make a great difference whether you use an architect or an engineer as long as they are good to deal with and understand the planning procees (including suitable design).

A good architect would be able to communicate the advantages of their design and support their assertions with technical fact.

A good client is one who understands these assertions and is malleable and open for communication.

While 'taste' may be a factor, i find a successful building will 'feel' and 'look' correct regardless of 'taste' of client.

To suggest that the "understanding of the planning process" is the ultimate litmus test of a good design is completely absurd. It should be a pre requisite factor but certainly not a major influence. Going down the 'safe' route leads to the miles and miles of bland ubiquitous 'bungalow blight' or 'plan-a-nother-home" houses you see splattered all over the country.

Planning offices have guidelines. its a good designer and successful design that pushes these guideline to their limits and leads the planner to seriously consider the merits of the design, other than simply dispensing their architectural duties by means of a statement to the effect that "roof finish shall be black / black in colour...."

Mellor

kidsbo wrote: »

To suggest that a diligent engineer would only be capable of providing a design comparable to one produced by a disinterested architect is, i think, disingenuous (at best). Any decent engineer with a knowledge of the planning procees would provide a better design than the southfork example. There is no disputing the architectural merit of the second image and I would certainly take it over southfork, but it is not to everybodys taste. The problem I found with the architect we initially used was that he insisted on forcing his tastes on me. The engineer we employed listened to what I wanted and tried to incorporate that into a design that worked for the site. Perhaps I am unfairly applying my experience of one architect but I would still suggest that it really doesnt make a great difference whether you use an architect or an engineer as long as they are good to deal with and understand the planning procees (including suitable design).

So you are basing your opinion of all architects and all engineers, on your experience with one of each. And you think this really doesn't make a difference.
To be hoenst, I think it makes a world of difference. The planning process, has little to do with overall good design.

Knowing how to get house designs submitted and approved for planning, is in no way related to knowing how to design a good house.

kidsbo

I can only base my opinion on my experiences...I had a crap experience with an architect and a good experience with an engineer.I would have thought the first job of each profession is to serve the interests of the client.the architect failed to do that but the engineer did so exactly.on the basis of my experiences I would employ an engineer if I was looking for planning again.I am surprised at the strength of feeling on the topic and, in particular, the relative inability of those who responded to my comments to take on board my opinion...it reminds me of my previous dealings with an architect.

Mellor

kidsbo wrote: »

I can only base my opinion on my experiences...I had a crap experience with an architect and a good experience with an engineer.I would have thought the first job of each profession is to serve the interests of the client.the architect failed to do that but the engineer did so exactly.on the basis of my experiences I would employ an engineer if I was looking for planning again.I am surprised at the strength of feeling on the topic and, in particular, the relative inability of those who responded to my comments to take on board my opinion...it reminds me of my previous dealings with an architect.

A normal person wouldn't base the opinions on the whole industry on one interaction.
If I get a bad piece of fish from a restaurant, and a nice piece of steak in another. The logical thing to do is to avoid the first restaurant, not to avoid all fish ever again. This is what you are doing, avoid all architects, and encouraging others to do so.
I understand you had problems, but I am actually surprized at your inability to see why is it bad idea to tarnish all based on one experience. It remind me of dealings with difficult clients.

onq

At the risk of being slapped for wandering off topic [again] I'd put my tuppence in here and note that the architect may have actually doing his job in the way he had been trained to do it.

Now before you go all go off saying "bloody typical" hear me out...

There are several different ways to approach house design.

1. Architect's Concept
2. Organic Planning
3. System Build
4. Client wishes/Planner's demands

Not all architects are good at all approaches and young architects who are by nature god at conceptualising and presenting and winning competitions may not bend their design to what the client sees as his needs too easily.

There are some features of approach common to all architects - or there should be, in my opinion and based on my experience.

Architects are trained to firstly define their brief.
This is the seminal part of the work and at its most basic can merely be a list of accommodation - often with named rooms and required dimensions or areas for each room.
During the briefing session(s) the architect must form an opinion in relation to the kind of client he is dealing with and choose and appropriate way to approach the work


1. Architect's Concept

This is the fait accompli approach - the architect takes this brief, develops his initial plan and evolves a conceptual framework on which to base the design. This is most suited to a client who goes to an architect or design office whose work in the area is known and who delivers iconic pieces with a certain "look" and feel to them.

The architect will deliver an integrated design based on this concept and unless it fails to include some or all of the brief accommodation its up to the client to approve or request another proposal specifying why the first one failed ot meet their requirements and instructing the architect in relation to changes required, or a complete revision if that's what's requried.

In this approach, loosely termed "concept" the client's role is limited in relation to design input and for many architects this is the "pure" role of the architect, but not all architects agree with this approach. The joy of getting this approach right will have great benefits to all concerned particularly if the architect has developed any level of "star" status - the house becomes an icon and talking point, not just a "machine for living in".


2. Organic Planning

This tends to be a slower process of design, working from the same brief and where we employ it, the client is requested to involve him/herself fully in the design process. We take the view and unless specifically requested to perform otherwise [the other three options], this is the kind of approach that delivers the best results in terms of client satisfaction and the architects role is one of guide to the realisation of both the clients dreams and his ambitions for the design.

Nothing here is assumed, even the clients ability to read a drawing is not taken for granted, and much research on final "look" and form of the building, detail samples, joinery samples and pegging out of the initial designs on site must be done to fully engage the client at all stages. If you don't do this, if the client fails to fully realise the involvement and committment this approach demands, the approach will fail and no-one will come away happy. We have yet to see it fail however, FWIW.


3. System Build

This is where the client has adopted a particular supplier of goods, i.e. a timber frame supplier, or a particular type of insulated blockwork they absolutely have to use, and this requirement layers on top of any approach, whether concept or organic. Naturally if the choice gels with the architect a good concept can sometimes be delivered, but the exploratory nature of the initial work on concept design approach will probably find this too limiting.

Using an organic planning approach integrating structure early on can be used like a grid approach - as a useful restriction to limit the choices available. On the other hand it can be left until the end of the process to try and minimise and impact - i.e. the clients wishes will be accommodated, but by involvement in the process the client will hopefully get enough confidence in their own conceptual abilities [and most clients we have dealt with have loads of design ability, often unused or under-used].

Usually the choice of a material or good like this can limit expression, because the client has fallen in love with a particular picture in a magazine produced by the maker of the good. How many times have we seen this and find that the development in question isn't built of the same material at all, or is on a site that's five times the size of the client site, or is done in a for mof expression that won't pass planning in the locality.

The success or otherwise of this approach can often rest on value added elements the architect brings to the design and a willingness to relax restrictions on the part of the client.
Also the system builder suppler can be either a blessing or a curse and a good architect engages with them fully from the outset and impresses upon them that all design input must be routed through him, for cost assessment as well as advising the client. Getting dumped in favour of the system builder's in house engineer wouldn't impress us.


4. Client wishes/Planner's demands

All briefs are drawn up with the intention of realising the clients wishes in three dimensions and, unless its exempted development, with the intent of evolving somethig from the brief that will receive statutory approval.

A good designer will naturally try to go beyond this to bring in elements of sustainability and energy conservation as well as good design and visual amenity to ensure that the final product has benefits not just for the client but the public good.

However, some briefs are so constrained that the architect may feel he is being reduced to drawing up a set of plans. The Planner is dictating the look of the building, aping some approach he fancies - traditional or modern - in the locaility. The client is utterly inflexible in how the architect is interpreting the brief, mistaking this inflexibility for good management of design input.

This is the worst of all worlds for a design and I know of many commercial practice where situations like this arise daily and where service to the client is paramount over design and the driving need is to get work to billing stages to allow the practice to keep going.

The architects job here is a hard one. It is possible to develop better designs, but it will require a lot of time with the client to convince them of this approach, time the client will not pay for. Similarly, if the proposed amended design is good enough, it may sway the planning officer, or the architect may have to appeal to the next tier in the local authority, a fraught approach and one that may have repercussions the next time he applies for planning and the same planner is allocated.


All right, that's my possibly off topic two pennies worth.
The point being that a misunderstanding of the architects role and a restrictive approach by the client allied to poor communication of his role by the architect can lead to dissatisfaction.
Communication is the key and defining terms of reference is the answer and this should be done at the outset.
We have had a lot of practice in "reading" situations and clients, so we foresee these situations arising.
As one excellent post puts it, "don't go off all fish because you ate one poor meal".
I'd add: "don't assume a yes man is giving you what you really want, its only what you think you want and a good design is aware that needs and fashions in house design change over time."

I hope this sheds some light on the debate and apologise in advance if its wandered too far off topic/ gone on too long.

ONQ.

kidsbo

I don’t think I encouraged anyone to avoid all architects. Neither do I think that I tarnished all architects with my comments. I said that I had a crap experience with an architect and a good experience with an engineer. I said that on that basis I would employ an engineer over an architect if I were applying for planning permission again. That seems to me to be an entirely reasonable response to my experience. I have not gone off all fish, I would just be careful when ordering.

onq

kidsbo wrote: »

I can only base my opinion on my experiences...I had a crap experience with an architect and a good experience with an engineer.I would have thought the first job of each profession is to serve the interests of the client.the architect failed to do that but the engineer did so exactly.on the basis of my experiences I would employ an engineer if I was looking for planning again.I am surprised at the strength of feeling on the topic and, in particular, the relative inability of those who responded to my comments to take on board my opinion...it reminds me of my previous dealings with an architect.

Its difficult when people don't agree with you, that's true.

We've had a lot of experience in conflict resolution at briefing and later stage and it often arises from the client's job or the non-working spouses reaction to it and the consequential effect this has on the designer.
In the latter case the architect can be the non-working spouses whipping boy, or can fall into the trap of being used by one spouse to annoy the other. Its best to withdraw in such situations.

As regards the main client; -
People in positions of middle management are often under pressure and fail to engage with the staff beneath them, preferring to rule by fear and authority.
Sometimes they try to impose their will from behind a wall on their architect.
This is never a good idea and ruins the relationship that must be developed.
The architect must see this and break down that wall before he puts pen to paper.

Of course some clients are strong designers and the architect really is only the magicians hand, bringing their ideas to live but only refining, not designing from a conceptual or organic basis.

However some clients seem to think that because they drive an expensive German or Italian car they are brilliant at everything, including design, when in fact their talents lie in personnel management and they havent a design bone in their bodies.
Such people only need yes men who'll do as their told and make sure the building is well founded and dosn't leak - and take their money and smile.

People with a Christian background focus in the afterlife. Our experience is that you get what you pay for in this world; sometimes you get what you deserve; and, in a lot of cases, what goes around comes around.

But yes, seem to be a lot of arrogant designers out there - not just architects BTW you get prima donna landscape contractors too .
I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience with one.

ONQ.

BenK

I think this has probably been covered enough at this stage and I don't mean to go on but... Kidsbo, I don't intend to be rude but I gather from your posts that getting your planning permission was the be all and end all for you. That's fine and I'm glad you had a decent relationship with your engineer but I'd suggest that design (actual design and not the repetition of 'styles' and 'house types' and 'layouts' prevalent all over the country) was not particularly high on your list of priorities. I'd happily be proved wrong on this however. This debate isn't meant to be a slight on engineers and to clarify: what they provide, an architect can't provide and similarly what an architect provides they can't provide. I don't think this is about opinions over one or the other, it's about clarification of the roles of the engineer and architect and that's probably why you've had such a strong response to your initial post.

onq

BenK wrote: »

I think this has probably been covered enough at this stage and I don't mean to go on but... Kidsbo, I don't intend to be rude but I gather from your posts that getting your planning permission was the be all and end all for you. That's fine and I'm glad you had a decent relationship with your engineer but I'd suggest that design (actual design and not the repetition of 'styles' and 'house types' and 'layouts' prevalent all over the country) was not particularly high on your list of priorities. I'd happily be proved wrong on this however. This debate isn't meant to be a slight on engineers and to clarify: what they provide, an architect can't provide and similarly what an architect provides they can't provide. I don't think this is about opinions over one or the other, it's about clarification of the roles of the engineer and architect and that's probably why you've had such a strong response to your initial post.

While its easy to choose a simple definition, ts not that cut and dried.

Admittedly I know few engineers that can design a house as well as even a weak designer who's been through the five year course, but take a look at an exceptional engineer, Calatrava.

I know planning consultants who are reasonable urban designers, but I've done masterplans myself and have a pretty good track record on appeals and oral hearings [no this is not touting for the work, thans].

I know several architects who can do the structural calculations for small buildings and many more technicians who can do them.

But exceptions aside, if you're looking for a decent house design, choose an architect or competent architectural technician with a flair for design.

And when you're looking for a structural cert, the engineer is yer only man.

Any one of them can make the planning application, as can a competent surveyor.

Architect are often used because they can swear declarations in relation to property matters.

FWIW

ONQ.

BenK

To be honest in general I think the simple definition stands up (you can't legislate for the odd exception). And on Calatrava, he isn't really an exception either as he is a qualified architect and engineer...

Mellor

kidsbo wrote: »

I don’t think I encouraged anyone to avoid all architects. Neither do I think that I tarnished all architects with my comments. I said that I had a crap experience with an architect and a good experience with an engineer. I said that on that basis I would employ an engineer over an architect if I were applying for planning permission again.

This isn't what you said. It may of been your intention, but you didn't say this at first. If you had of said it like this, I am 100% sure the reaction would be different.

kidsbo wrote: »

To suggest that a diligent engineer would only be capable of providing a design comparable to one produced by a disinterested architect is, i think, disingenuous (at best). Any decent engineer with a knowledge of the planning procees would provide a better design than the southfork example.

you said any engineer, not the one you had. You didn't even mention the architect until the end of your second post.

kidsbo wrote: »

Architects and Engineers in Ireland provide pretty much the same services when it comes to domestic works. What you need is a) someone who understands the planning process in Cork and b) someone you feel comfortable dealing with. It doesnt really matter if they are an architect or an engineer. We used an engineers in innishannon (am I allowed give their details?) and they were brillant. The site was in a scenic area but they came up with a great design that went through planning without any hassle.

Your opening post, the phrase "Architects and Engineers", implies all of each field.
No mention of your architect let alone any problems.

kidsbo

BenK and onq, many thanks for your comments. If you are architects then I think you do your profession proud with your well thought out and rational responses and, perhaps more importantly, your ability to communicate them well. unfortunately that skill appears to have been missing from some of the other respondents.

Claireyork, i dont know if you've switched off at this stage but if you havent i wish you the very best of luck with your application.

BenK

Thanks Kidsbo, I am an architect actually so there's probably a little bit of bias there! I genuinely do appreciate where you're coming from too. I'll be the first to admit that a lot of architects struggle massively with properly interacting with, and communicating their work to, the general public. I'd imagine it stems from the college course where for 5/6 years there has been little or no interaction with other real life members of any potential project , each with their own individual stake and responsibility (engineer, qs, builder, client most importantly etc.). All project briefs, reviews,critiques etc. (the vast majority anyway) are undertaken amongst fellow architectural students, tutors and professionals. I think this can initially lead to a certain type of arrogance (or ignorance maybe) in the real world that can take time to shake off. Give us a chance though, we are eager to listen and please really!

That's my tuppence worth on it anyway, sorry again Claireyork we did go off on a bit of a tangent there, hope it helped a little though! Best of luck with everything.

Mellor

kidsbo wrote: »

BenK and onq, many thanks for your comments. If you are architects then I think you do your profession proud with your well thought out and rational responses and, perhaps more importantly, your ability to communicate them well. unfortunately that skill appears to have been missing from some of the other respondents.

Kidsbo, apologies if I came across rude, it wasn't my intention. I can see where you are coming from, and I understand that you probably have a bitter taste in your mouth when it comes to architectural flair, but these threads come up every so often, both here and on my own forum. Very often, poster arrive just to slander architects as a whole, diminish the role at the sake of their or another profession, or just to stir the shit with a new poster and give some poor or misguided advice. I'm not saying any of the above was your intention, but having seen a lot this before, I suppose I've grown weary of a pointless debate.

Every profession has its own merits, and flaws. And each of the major roles overlap with one another. So, logically, it makes sense that there are some areas where two different roles (even three or four) can preform equally well. Planning permission is obviously one, but (my original point that I failed to get across well) domestic design isn't.


It best to end on a light note, so;
Calatrava has been mentioned as the exception (Onq, I'd be with BenK, he isn't an engineer, he was trained as an architect first). The dual role, the Engitect, or is it Archineer. Anyway, to keep the mood light;

Some of his local works;
Sam Becket bridge (I don't know why it was named after the guy from Quantum Leap)


James Joyce Bridge (opposite the location of "The Dead)

onq

BenK wrote: »

Just saw ONQ's reply there re. architects and engineers, you got there before me!

<bows>

Next time you'll be first.

ONQ.

onq

kidsbo wrote: »

BenK and onq, many thanks for your comments. If you are architects then I think you do your profession proud with your well thought out and rational responses and, perhaps more importantly, your ability to communicate them well. unfortunately that skill appears to have been missing from some of the other respondents.

<bows>

If we cannot understand and communicate with people, how can we hope to design for them?

ONQ.

Curious Geroge

sydthebeat wrote: »

both of these dwellings were constructed for roughly the same price. !!!

hi syd, you know what your talking about here. Are these of equal size for the cost ?

RKQ

Slowly Clients are begining to appreciate good design and the latter photo is becoming more common. Unfortunately many still aspire to the first photo.

I've never really understood why "people" want mock Georgian or mock Victorian homes yet aspire to the latest flat screen tv and latest car design? Good modern design is feared in favour of "old world".

Unfortunately people seem to believe that modern design costs more to build or maybe they just don't want to stand out - fearing that their modern design will quickly go out of fashion and age.

These are interesting times.

seclachi

Just to throw in my own experience. I have a site close to a city on agriculturally zoned land (family farm). The first architect we got said it was unlikely we would get it due to its location being pretty prominent.

So he sent in the outline application and it got rejected. There really wasnt that much interaction with him, it was the height of the boom so I guess he was working with many customers. I was disheartened and left it slide for a year or so. Then we got another architect, this one was younger and alot more keen and interested. They did research and checked into why the first application was rejected. What we found was pretty depressing, the original architect application was very lazy, and the council shot it down with ease.

It did make it easier the second time around though because we knew what they did and didnt want. They also made some mistakes, thinking the site was in another location when doing impact surveys.

The architect was brilliant and countered every argument, she knew the planners from her other works, so she knew what beat to tap to. We had to jump through some hoops but I eventually got the permission.

My advice is to look for somebody who is keen and shows a knowledge of your council, its probably rarer now things are quieter, but I imagine there a still a few fire and forget cowboys who just have no interest out there.

onq

seclachi wrote: »

Just to throw in my own experience. I have a site close to a city on agriculturally zoned land (family farm). The first architect we got said it was unlikely we would get it due to its location being pretty prominent.

So he sent in the outline application and it got rejected. There really wasnt that much interaction with him, it was the height of the boom so I guess he was working with many customers. I was disheartened and left it slide for a year or so. Then we got another architect, this one was younger and alot more keen and interested. They did research and checked into why the first application was rejected. What we found was pretty depressing, the original architect application was very lazy, and the council shot it down with ease.

It did make it easier the second time around though because we knew what they did and didnt want. They also made some mistakes, thinking the site was in another location when doing impact surveys.

The architect was brilliant and countered every argument, she knew the planners from her other works, so she knew what beat to tap to. We had to jump through some hoops but I eventually got the permission.

My advice is to look for somebody who is keen and shows a knowledge of your council, its probably rarer now things are quieter, but I imagine there a still a few fire and forget cowboys who just have no interest out there.

Your experience is not unique but I think its also horses for courses.

We've inherited several jobs following on a client having had an experience like you had with your first architect.
There was no suggestion of incompetence, the work was done fine inasfar as it went, just not finding the correct angle to approach a particular problem.
Contrary to your experience usually we're inheriting them from local architects where their narrower focus on tried and tested solutions has not worked.
A lot of them look "insoluble" in local terms and experience gained on a national level can sometimes offer insights.
Sometimes a call to a friendly legal eagle helps on points of law.
Sometimes a close reading of the devlopment plan and online guidance helps avoid making an invalod application.
Sometimes just making an effort to get to know the planners mind helps bring home a permission.
As your post implies, a lot of it is about communication.

FWIW

ONQ.

onq

RKQ wrote: »

Slowly Clients are begining to appreciate good design and the latter photo is becoming more common. Unfortunately many still aspire to the first photo.

I've never really understood why "people" want mock Georgian or mock Victorian homes yet aspire to the latest flat screen tv and latest car design? Good modern design is feared in favour of "old world".

Unfortunately people seem to believe that modern design costs more to build or maybe they just don't want to stand out - fearing that their modern design will quickly go out of fashion and age.

These are interesting times.

<nods>

You don't see many TV sets done in the "antique" style, do you? No.
The reason you don't see more "traditional" TV's is because the marketing people haven't spotted the market.
However - and you read it here first - I bet there is a huge market for TV sets that don't look like they're made out of ceramic or plastic.
I know one client who has just completed his study fit out and its wall to wall timber with the "technical bits" set in timber surrounds and in pop-up enclosures in his desk.

As for traditional designed houses, as an architect or designer its too easy to be judgemental in relation to clients.
Design has done through many phases of development in the last 150 years, but people remain largely the same.
Most of the standing architecture in our towns and cities is still traditional build.
The places where tourists flock contain buildings that are over 200 years old.
In case people aren't taking the hint, in some way Modernism has failed to satisfy the desires of ordinary people.
Suggesting this is because they aren't "educated in design" seems to be a self-fulling argument that is avoiding the root cause.
Traditional building uses an language of forms and materials that allows us to relate to it.
Modernist or one off buildings that don't employ this traditional lexicon seem to be speaking in a foreign language to people who aren't well versed in free-form design.
It may be that in years to come the numbers of moderist building will predominate, but I suspect then the problem will be different.
There will be dialects which nearly talk to each other but don't and you'll end up with style battles similar to the religious wars of the past, with each side claiming some kind of moral superiority over the others, just as the moderns continue to claim over other forms of design today.

Anyway I have been "adminished" for wandering off topic too much so I will stop there.

FWIW

ONQ.

muffler

onq, this persistent and deliberate off topic posting has to stop and stop now. You were asked privately to do so but that request has fallen on deaf ears so now you are being told publicly.

Part of your contributions are always constructive and informative and are, of course, welcome but we would rather not see them when they continually drag almost every single thread off topic.

You can do better.

onq

muffler wrote: »

onq, this persistent and deliberate off topic posting has to stop and stop now. You were asked privately to do so but that request has fallen on deaf ears so now you are being told publicly.

Part of your contributions are always constructive and informative and are, of course, welcome but we would rather not see them when they continually drag almost every single thread off topic.

You can do better.

Hi Muffler,

Thanks for your comments and I note the following; -.

My own self-criticism about being off-topic related to the last three lines of speculative comment about future trands in design in my reply to RKQ.
That means less than 20% of the comments in that post were off topic and even they were directly relating to the issue I discussed in that post.
The rest of my reply to RKQ and the entire of my reply to seclachi were both totally on-topic.
They lay well within the latitude shown in this thread by Mellor and Sydthebeat.
If you have other, specific standards of behaviour for me, please be explicit.

ONQ.