Jesus's predictions and the end of the world??

gar32

OK I have looked and there is nothing on this subject so I have to start it myself.

I was listening to the Matthew’s writing and what Jesus says about the future and the end of the world etc.

It seemed clear that Jesus said that it will not be Church leaders or even the priests that will be going to heaven at the end of days. He said there will be false religions ( Islam could be? ) and people claiming to be here in his name. (Evangelists etc) He clear says not to believe them and do what the church says but not what they do. (Child abuse etc) There will be wars and the earth will become worst but only people who keep living like he suggested will be brought to Heaven.

I was watching and reading about freemasons and end of world. The banking crisis leads me to these things. Zeitgeist movie was also good. Also with the movie 2012 coming soon and end of Inca’s calendar too in that year.

My question is this. Should we not all just try to be the basic good person that Jesus described? The church and man has Chinese whispered his meaning to death. Can we please just be good people and look after each other?

Many thanks for reading and please be aware that I am not practicing any religion but was catholic until about 14 years old.

Turtwig

Ok Firstly off 2012 (Mayan Calendar btw;)), is a ridiculous myth! Most end of world predictions fail to take into account the fact that each year is getting longer and longer. Meaning '2012' has actually passed us by;). Secondly Zeitgeist was an anti Christian (anti religion movie) that had a small bit of truth to it, but most of it was purely fictitious rubbish propaganda. - The Skeptic's Assessment

The end of humanity, from a naturalistic point of view, is a still a long way away. God may choose to wipe us off the earth, but I don't think there has been any clearly sign of that yet..
How is the end predicted anyways?
( I really must get around to reading 'Revelations')

gar32

Mayan Calendar was based on the stars and took account of earths extra movement. Leap seconds etc. Zeitgeist 2 about money and how the banking world works was more interesting. I am not saying Jesus is god but I like a lot of what other people wrote he said. Seems like a nice way to live but then Budists have a good way too. Any ways seem like near the end of the world. Which jesus said will be at a time we do not expect. Only a few nice believers will make it and the rest of the world will die or worst be sent to hell. Have you seen the movie "Knowing" any one ?

Turtwig

gar32 wrote: »

Mayan Calendar was based on the stars and took account of earths extra movement. Leap seconds etc. Zeitgeist 2 about money and how the banking world works was more interesting. I am not saying Jesus is god but I like a lot of what other people wrote he said. Seems like a nice way to live but then Budists have a good way too. Any ways seem like near the end of the world. Which jesus said will be at a time we do not expect. Only a few nice believers will make it and the rest of the world will die or worst be sent to hell. Have you seen the movie "Knowing" any one ?

It did? Oh right, my apologies, I'm not 100% sure of the interpretation of the calendars but I thought it should have happened a year or so ago. Anyways, still nothing is most likely going to happen.
Meant both Zeitgeists.:p
Knowing while a little entertaining, is again a pile of rubbish.

The Sun cannot produce such a solar flare

chozometroid

The fact that the Mayan calendar ends at 2012 means nothing more than it reached the end of it's cycle. It was made to account for a certain number of years. Could've been more, could've been less. It doesn't mean there are no more years when the calendar ends.

Stephentlig

gar32 wrote: »

Mayan Calendar was based on the stars and took account of earths extra movement. Leap seconds etc. Zeitgeist 2 about money and how the banking world works was more interesting. I am not saying Jesus is god but I like a lot of what other people wrote he said. Seems like a nice way to live but then Budists have a good way too. Any ways seem like near the end of the world. Which jesus said will be at a time we do not expect. Only a few nice believers will make it and the rest of the world will die or worst be sent to hell. Have you seen the movie "Knowing" any one ?

hi Gar, if your interested in reading about the end of the world you should pick up a copy of True Life In God ( Vassula Ryden ) she is a mystic and Jesus, Mary and the angels speak to her about these end times we are living in. also a few predictions have been made, for example the sept 11 trade towers falling was predicted in the messages, and the tsunami not long ago.

here is the message, but you should also read Vassulas commentary that accompanies the message too, to get more understanding.
http://www.tlig.org/en/messages/654/

however when reading the messages which are compiled into twelve volumes one should start from volume one, because if you chop on at volume 5 you wont really understand whats going on.

Stephentlig

take not also that the message was taken on sept 11 1990 11 years previous to the two towers falling

jhegarty

The Mayan calendar ending in 2012 means exactly the same thing as the Y2K bug.

The Mayans and programmers from the 50's didn't think their calendar / code would be needed that far in the future.

JimiTime

jhegarty wrote: »

The Mayan calendar ending in 2012 means exactly the same thing as the Y2K bug.

Does that mean that us IT contractors will rake in loads of lolly for New year 'Babysits' and rolling out software to prevent 'The Crash' in 2012?:)

Turtwig

JimiTime wrote: »

Does that mean that us IT contractors will rake in loads of lolly for New year 'Babysits' and rolling out software to prevent 'The Crash' in 2012?:)

Of course
But you have to let the media sensationalise the danger again first

jhegarty

JimiTime wrote: »

Does that mean that us IT contractors will rake in loads of lolly for New year 'Babysits' and rolling out software to prevent 'The Crash' in 2012?:)

No , we need to drag some Mayans out of retirement to make a new calender.

gar32

Looking into this and Watching a national Geographic documentary “The Secret Bible: Apocalypse” and stars falling from the sky seems to say that this is how the world will end. The church leaders at the time put this at the end of the book saying it is the word of God.

I personal don’t care if the world ends as I will not be around to deal with it but if we can prevent or at least lessen the bad things that are predicted is it not our duty?

The world has too many people tell us how we should live. Human rights and human needs should be but at the highest interest of people , governments and churches of the world. Money seems to be the drive for more and more people now. We need a new system where peoples needs are put top of the list. Not jobs or business but less resources for the rich and sharing them more evenly around the world. Fair trade is the beginning of this but we need to leap forward to a better system soon.

World government is on its way and Lisbon was the start of it in Europe. If we don’t make people notice now life for many will be worse.

We have to use positive thinking to make the world better and there is too much conflict and not enough problem solving.

dvpower

Malty_T wrote: »

But you have to let the media sensationalise the danger again first

Everybody knows that the Y2K bug didn't have an impact because IT contractors were paid load of lolly to fix it (and then they went and fixed it).:rolleyes:

monosharp

Stephentlig wrote: »

however when reading the messages which are compiled into twelve volumes one should start from volume one, because if you chop on at volume 5 you wont really understand whats going on.

Out of curiosity, is this belief 'OK' with Catholic doctrine ? I would have thought this kind of stuff would be frowned upon no ?

Baggio

Stephentlig......

.was reading through the various messages to that lady and came upon the one that has been in my mind for many a time...the "purification"...have learned of this from various sources over last 10 years or so.... where "victim souls" and people in receipt of messages like that have been forewarned of that dread day when basically a mini judgement upon the world is shown to all people on Earth at the same time.....I think its what Our Lady has called "the moment of world silence"? and if i'm not mistaken is referred to in scripture maybe revelations? as when God sends the Holy Spirit to correct the consiounce of man. Now dont ask me for exact detail folks,,,am just saying from memory and honest opinion is all!

Have to say found it fascinating, sobering and downright awe inspiring to read through the detail God has passed to this lady,.....I personally have no doubt that having re-read it and looking at the way the world is going that this will indeed happen!...its a matter of "when" for me not "if"

anyway just thought I'd post that.....Have observed many moons of stuff on this Christianity forum but never typed anything myself till now in this area...so respect to those more learned than I!...just my honest opnion on this amazing phenomenan that is to come....

ps Stephen can i presume do links to the details I am useless at that stuff!! ahahha so dont even ask me to find it....

best of luck people...Baggio..... drummer and Church goer

lmaopml

monosharp wrote: »

Out of curiosity, is this belief 'OK' with Catholic doctrine ? I would have thought this kind of stuff would be frowned upon no ?

Correct!

Please see: http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfrydn1.htm

and...

http://www.catholicplanet.com/apparitions/false13.htm

for the Catholic take on Vassula Ryden. The bride of God indeed :mad:

Self Glorifying garbage imo.

monosharp

Background: Vassula is Greek Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. Her claimed messages begin in 1986 and number in the hundreds. Her messages do not usually capitalize the first letter of a sentence.

1. She claims to have married Jesus, with rings given supernaturally

From the message dated March 23, 1987:
“remember I am One, the Holy Trinity is One. I want that our union be perfect. discern Me carefully. yes, you have seen well, I have with Me two rings.”

“they are out of pure white gold.”

“Yes, I am blessing our union! beloved this act is a spiritual heavenly act, your soul is united to Me, I tell you truly, believe Me, I will sanctify our marriage allow Me to place this ring on your finger, I love you, feel Me, I love you and I bless you....”

“Vassula I have risen you from the dead, I shed My Light on you, I looked after you, and soothed you, leave Me free to continue My works on you daughter, be like soft plaster willing to be shaped up as I wish. leave yourself free in My hands and do not resist Me;”

“My bride, My wretched bride why are you fearing Me? grieve Me not and approach Me, I love you, lean on Me and remember, I it is who sanctified our marriage, do not worry, it is I Jesus, leave your fears and approach Me, I felt your hand do not be; be intimate with Me, just like you are, come, give Me your hand and I will keep it in Mine.”

This claim to have married Jesus, with a supernatural ring given to her, is bizarre. Nothing like this is found in the lives of any of the Saints, even though many of these were religious sisters, even though many of these received true private revelation. Therefore, this is not the way that Christ Jesus treats his female disciples. Furthermore, Christ does not play favorites with his disciples; having a so-called 'sanctified' marriage with one woman exalts her above the other female disciples of Christ.

If I was Christian I would be extremely offended at this.

But as myself I find it quite disturbing to say the least.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

PDN

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

In the Bible the Church is collectively described as 'the Bride of Christ'. I feel very uncomfortable when people want to make that refer to them as individuals.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

PDN

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It doesn't state in the Song of Songs that it applies spiritually to any believer. The Song of Songs is, IMHO, a good premarital guide for anyone who wants to enjoy great sex in their marriage.

I agree with much of what this guy says: http://http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/33/33-4/33-4-pp433-436_JETS.pdf

Slav

monosharp wrote: »

Background: Vassula is Greek Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. Her claimed messages begin in 1986 and number in the hundreds. Her messages do not usually capitalize the first letter of a sentence.

1. She claims to have married Jesus, with rings given supernaturally

From the message dated March 23, 1987:
“remember I am One, the Holy Trinity is One. I want that our union be perfect. discern Me carefully. yes, you have seen well, I have with Me two rings.”

“they are out of pure white gold.”

“Yes, I am blessing our union! beloved this act is a spiritual heavenly act, your soul is united to Me, I tell you truly, believe Me, I will sanctify our marriage allow Me to place this ring on your finger, I love you, feel Me, I love you and I bless you....”

“Vassula I have risen you from the dead, I shed My Light on you, I looked after you, and soothed you, leave Me free to continue My works on you daughter, be like soft plaster willing to be shaped up as I wish. leave yourself free in My hands and do not resist Me;”

“My bride, My wretched bride why are you fearing Me? grieve Me not and approach Me, I love you, lean on Me and remember, I it is who sanctified our marriage, do not worry, it is I Jesus, leave your fears and approach Me, I felt your hand do not be; be intimate with Me, just like you are, come, give Me your hand and I will keep it in Mine.”

This claim to have married Jesus, with a supernatural ring given to her, is bizarre. Nothing like this is found in the lives of any of the Saints, even though many of these were religious sisters, even though many of these received true private revelation. Therefore, this is not the way that Christ Jesus treats his female disciples. Furthermore, Christ does not play favorites with his disciples; having a so-called 'sanctified' marriage with one woman exalts her above the other female disciples of Christ.

Officially at the time of that writing she was not a Greek Orthodox either. It usually takes ages before a local synod makes a statement acknowledging that someone expelled themselves from the Church. For the Greek Church in case of Mrs Ryden it took more then a decade (it was communicated in 2001; some 4 years before the above was written).

In reality she departed from Orthodoxy much earlier. Pretty much everything in her spiritual experiences contradict with Orthodox ascetic tradition.

monosharp wrote: »

If I was Christian I would be extremely offended at this.

But as myself I find it quite disturbing to say the least.

Unfortunately, for me (as a Christian) certain (in)famous visions of St Teresa of Avil don't sound very different from Mrs Ryden's visions but for sure Dr Freud would value them both:

Teresa of Avil wrote:

I saw an angel in bodily form standing very close to me on my left side. [...] The angel was not large; he was quite small and very beautiful. [...] I saw that he held a great golden spear. The end of the iron tip seemed to be on fire. Then the angel plunged the flaming spear through my heart again and again until it penetrated my innermost core. When he withdrew it, it felt like he was carrying the deepest part of me away with him. He left me utterly consumed with love of God. The pain was so intense that it made me moan. The sweetness this anguish carries with it is so bountiful that I could never wish for it to cease.

In my opinion once RCC allowed such spiritual practices there is no surprise it attracts and generates all sorts of new prophets receiving "divine" revelations.

kelly1

gar32 wrote: »

My question is this. Should we not all just try to be the basic good person that Jesus described? The church and man has Chinese whispered his meaning to death. Can we please just be good people and look after each other?

Hello Gar32, yes of course we should live according to the Gospel by loving God and neighbour but isn't this what the Church teaches?

How do you think Jesus' message has been corrupted?

But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what we want. It's God's will that matters. God knows what's best for us. I believe that Jesus gave us a Church which wrote the Gospel and therefore has the authority to infallibly interpret Scripture and teach sound doctrine by the power of the Holy Spirit:

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.

Jesus also appointed priests to give us the sacraments by the authority of Christ e.g. confession and the Eucharist. We can't receive the sacraments without a priest.

So basically I don't think the go-it-alone approach is valid/sufficent in God's eyes!

God bless,
Noel.

wolfsbane

gar32 wrote: »

OK I have looked and there is nothing on this subject so I have to start it myself.

I was listening to the Matthew’s writing and what Jesus says about the future and the end of the world etc.

It seemed clear that Jesus said that it will not be Church leaders or even the priests that will be going to heaven at the end of days. He said there will be false religions ( Islam could be? ) and people claiming to be here in his name. (Evangelists etc) He clear says not to believe them and do what the church says but not what they do. (Child abuse etc) There will be wars and the earth will become worst but only people who keep living like he suggested will be brought to Heaven.

I was watching and reading about freemasons and end of world. The banking crisis leads me to these things. Zeitgeist movie was also good. Also with the movie 2012 coming soon and end of Inca’s calendar too in that year.

My question is this. Should we not all just try to be the basic good person that Jesus described? The church and man has Chinese whispered his meaning to death. Can we please just be good people and look after each other?

Many thanks for reading and please be aware that I am not practicing any religion but was catholic until about 14 years old.

Hi, gar32.

Yes, men have corrupted much of Jesus' teaching, substituting their own doctrines instead. But we still have His word before us, so we are without excuse. Like the Bereans, we ought to search the Scriptures to see if what we are being told is true:
Acts 17:10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

The end of the world will take most people by surprise:
Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


What then should we do?
2 Peter3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
That's for those who already are Christians. For those, like yourself, who are not the urgent need is to receive forgiveness - by repenting and trusting in Christ as your Lord.

gar32

What are you trying to explain to me here? That is my point in starting this tread. Men like yourself or the church quote the word of God. Man wrote them wordsin a book lon after Jesus died. Jesus did not write anything and these stories about him like any story can change or loss meaning with translation or interpolation. I think Jesus tried to talk to the people of his time in stories that they would understand. He did not try confuse or belittle any one.
I think his message is easy to understand. Be loving to everyone and you will be saved. You don’t have to go to mass or not eat meat on Friday. I you are a good person believe in one god or another will not matter. Living like Jesus is what’s important not all this church C*&p. You will find Jesus as says that many who expect to go to the new earth will not and many who don’t will. I don’t remember Jesus making priests any where. The rock was to start his church but man has been winging it from then.

Back to Jesus basic’s please!!!!

PDN

gar32, I suggest you read the Forum Charter. If you want to call the church crap and proclaim your disbelief in the Bible then I think you're in the wrong forum.

gar32

Sorry was hoping you could help me here but maybe not

Enjoy

wolfsbane

gar32 said:

What are you trying to explain to me here? That is my point in starting this tread. Men like yourself or the church quote the word of God. Man wrote them wordsin a book lon after Jesus died. Jesus did not write anything and these stories about him like any story can change or loss meaning with translation or interpolation.

The men wrote by God's immediate inspiration - just like in the writing of the Old Testament books. Jesus held the OT books to be God's words, not merely the work of men, and He promised His Spirit would enable His apostles to deliver His new revelation to us.

I think Jesus tried to talk to the people of his time in stories that they would understand. He did not try confuse or belittle any one.

He often spoke so that only His people would understand - those whose hearts were open to God. But indeed there is more than enough plain language so that you and I are without excuse.

I think his message is easy to understand. Be loving to everyone and you will be saved.

You haven't been paying attention to what He actually said, then. Good works are not the basis of one's salvation. We need to be born again before we do any good.

You don’t have to go to mass or not eat meat on Friday.

I fully agree with you there.

I you are a good person believe in one god or another will not matter. Living like Jesus is what’s important

But Jesus insisted we follow Him in loving the One True God.

not all this church C*&p.

There are many churches and many doctrines, and a lot of rubbish amongst it - but that does not mean there is no truth nor that the Church of Jesus Christ has disappeared. It remains in all generations, in various places and in various states of purity. Christ will keep it from apostasy even when parts of it fall away.

You will find Jesus as says that many who expect to go to the new earth will not and many who don’t will.

True. Just make sure you heed all He says and not pick and choose the bits you like - otherwise you can be sure you won't be there.

I don’t remember Jesus making priests any where.

Correct, if you mean a priesthood separate from other Christians. The only priesthood of this gospel age is that of every Christian - Christ has made us priests and kings unto God:
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

The rock was to start his church but man has been winging it from then.

Back to Jesus basic’s please!!!!

Yes, man has introduced many of his own doctrines in place of God's words. But Jesus warned us about false teachers and how to spot them. Not all who claim the title Christian are such, nor all those who claim the title Christian Church either.

Yusuf Mirza

Original sin. An alien concept to the Jewish people. Jesus was a Jew. His crucifixion was meant to destroy sin. Yet 2,000 years later the world is in an even more sinful and pitiful state then when he came. People are less righteous, less faithful and more fearful. sin has increased not decreased. May I ask what was the point of the crucifixion the first time round if Jesus has to return in the end of time and save humanity “again”?:)

Turtwig

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Original sin. An alien concept to the Jewish people. Jesus was a Jew. His crucifixion was meant to destroy sin. Yet 2,000 years later the world is in an even more sinful and pitiful state then when he came. People are less righteous, less faithful and more fearful. sin has increased not decreased. May I ask what was the point of the crucifixion the first time round if Jesus has to return in the end of time and save humanity “again”?:)

Sin has increased???

Hmm..

Equality of status for women,
Slavery Abolished,
Better treatment towards Gays and lesbians,
Abhorrence of racism,
Wars have become far less frequent.
All though the numbers of people killed by other humans has increased, proportion wise there has been a dramatic drop.
Recognition of Human Rights,
Respect to other religions and other cultures (as long as they are humane).
Improved science and knowledge that has helped us to understands ourselves better e.g We are more aware and understanding of disabilities and mental illness and the stigma/taboo against them is slowly waning away.

Sin increased....
my ass!!

Fanny Cradock

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Original sin. An alien concept to the Jewish people. Jesus was a Jew. His crucifixion was meant to destroy sin. Yet 2,000 years later the world is in an even more sinful and pitiful state then when he came. People are less righteous, less faithful and more fearful. sin has increased not decreased. May I ask what was the point of the crucifixion the first time round if Jesus has to return in the end of time and save humanity “again”?:)

I suggest you look very hard at the significance of the cross. You seem to operate under the basic misapprehension that the cross was meant to immediately expunge sinfulness from creation. I'm not sure where you get such a notion. Indeed, it seems to fly in the face of what is discussed in the NT.

Furthermore, Jesus isn't coming back again because hew didn't do a very good job the first time around. He is coming back in continuation of the work on the cross. The culmination of this, we are told, is in the "new heavens and the new earth".

philologos

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Original sin. An alien concept to the Jewish people. Jesus was a Jew. His crucifixion was meant to destroy sin. Yet 2,000 years later the world is in an even more sinful and pitiful state then when he came. People are less righteous, less faithful and more fearful. sin has increased not decreased. May I ask what was the point of the crucifixion the first time round if Jesus has to return in the end of time and save humanity “again”?:)

Another misunderstanding of Christianity.

Jesus died to save us from our sins. To rid us of sins slavery if we are to believe in Him.

If one does not believe in the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ, one cannot receive this mercy, and will be condemned at the final Judgement.

Yusuf Mirza

Ok Jackass so you are saying that whosoever does not accept that Jesus died for their sins shall be condemned to judgement. I presume from this statement you mean hell.

This is an alien concept to the Jewish scriptures. A presume you believe in the divine revelations of the Jewish scriptures? Strange how they not only make no mention of this doctrine but refute it outright;

The father shall not be put to death for the children, neither the children put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sins. DEUTERONOMY 24:16

So here we see that the Old Testament is saying that it is imposable for any human to take the sins of another. That this is inconsistent with Gods attribute of Justice.

Again we read that;

Also unto thee, O God, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his own work. PSALMS 62.12

And again;
Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruits of their doings. Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the record of his hand shall be given him. ISAIAH 3:10/11


So again and again we see that the Old Testament makes quick work of anyone who develops the idea of one being responsible for the sins of others. So this is a new innovation and alien to the Old Testament scriptures. Jesus never says or makes the statement that you must believe in his death to get into heaven. In fact on the contrary when asked by a Pharisee how to attain paradise and the mercy of God he says “follow the commandments” before naming them out.

These are Greek mythological ideas. They came into Christianity because of the nature of the Roman Empire religiously. As example;

*Prometheus 547 BC, suffered hung on a tree or a rock for the sins of mortal beings. He was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.
*In Assyria 1160BC Tammuz was crucified to atone for sins of mankind.
*Quirinas Rome 506 BC Crucified for the sins of the world.
*Thulis 1700 BC crucified, rose again and atoned for the sins of man
*Mithras 600 BC Atoned for man again

So the concept of Atonement is a very old one. This is nothing unique. What I am saying is that how do you explain this anomaly in the Old Testament where no mention is there of atonement. But explicitly that very doctrine is warned against by God himself.

chozometroid

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Ok Jackass so you are saying that whosoever does not accept that Jesus died for their sins shall be condemned to judgement. I presume from this statement you mean hell.

This is an alien concept to the Jewish scriptures. A presume you believe in the divine revelations of the Jewish scriptures? Strange how they not only make no mention of this doctrine but refute it outright;

The father shall not be put to death for the children, neither the children put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sins. DEUTERONOMY 24:16

So here we see that the Old Testament is saying that it is imposable for any human to take the sins of another. That this is inconsistent with Gods attribute of Justice.

Again we read that;

Also unto thee, O God, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his own work. PSALMS 62.12

And again;
Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruits of their doings. Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the record of his hand shall be given him. ISAIAH 3:10/11


So again and again we see that the Old Testament makes quick work of anyone who develops the idea of one being responsible for the sins of others. So this is a new innovation and alien to the Old Testament scriptures. Jesus never says or makes the statement that you must believe in his death to get into heaven. In fact on the contrary when asked by a Pharisee how to attain paradise and the mercy of God he says “follow the commandments” before naming them out.

These are Greek mythological ideas. They came into Christianity because of the nature of the Roman Empire religiously. As example;

*Prometheus 547 BC, suffered hung on a tree or a rock for the sins of mortal beings. He was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.
*In Assyria 1160BC Tammuz was crucified to atone for sins of mankind.
*Quirinas Rome 506 BC Crucified for the sins of the world.
*Thulis 1700 BC crucified, rose again and atoned for the sins of man
*Mithras 600 BC Atoned for man again

So the concept of Atonement is a very old one. This is nothing unique. What I am saying is that how do you explain this anomaly in the Old Testament where no mention is there of atonement. But explicitly that very doctrine is warned against by God himself.

The Old Testament is filled with atonement. The animal sacrifices atoned for the sins of man. This began with Adam and Eve. This alone refutes your entire argument.
Animals were innocent, but their sacrifice was a temporary fix. There had to be the death of an sinless man to atone for the sins of mankind. Otherwise, we would all just shed our own blood for our sins, meaning we would die. Another sinful person can't die for our sins either. Jesus was the solution to the sin problem. It was God's gift to mankind. Without this gift, we all meet the fate of the sinner: death. With this gift, we can live. Lucky for you, it's not based on some myth.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

Leviticus 1:4 He is to lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him.

Fanny Cradock

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Ok Jackass so you are saying that whosoever does not accept that Jesus died for their sins shall be condemned to judgement.

Christians believe that all of mankind will be judged because all of mankind is found wanting. It's also worth noting that judgment doesn't necessarily have negative connotations. Each of us happily makes and stands by moral judgments.

I'm unsure where you are getting this stuff about Prometheus et al. (here perhaps) but it is completely off topic. If you want to go down the Christ myth route please start another thread. In the meantime I suggest you do a little bit of homework on Kersey Graves.

Yusuf Mirza

1st point’

There had to be the death of an sinless man to atone for the sins of mankind. Otherwise, we would all just shed our own blood for our sins, meaning we would die.
Another sinful person can't die for our sins either. Jesus was the solution to the sin problem. It was God's gift to mankind. Without this gift, we all meet the fate of the sinner: death. With this gift, we can live. Lucky for you, it's not based on some myth.

Let me ask you then as you believe your sins have been wiped away by the blood of Jesus shall you still die? The wages of sin is death right? So if your sins are removed then that means you won’t die by your own statement. So if you die that means by this criteria you have died a sinner and will taste of hell right?

2nd point’

Leviticus 1:4 He is to lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him.

Leviticus 1:4? Where is this translation from? Can u tell me the bible issue please?

And if the burnt sacrifice for his offering to the LORD be of fowls, then he shall bring his offering of turtledoves, or of young pigeons.
King James Version

And if the burnt sacrifice for his offering to the LORD shall be of fowls, then he shall bring his offering of turtle doves, or of young pigeons
Webster’s bible

What is your bible?

3rd point’
Jesus was crucified not burnt. He was not a burnet offering therefore this is not anything to do with him.

chozometroid

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

1st point’

There had to be the death of an sinless man to atone for the sins of mankind. Otherwise, we would all just shed our own blood for our sins, meaning we would die.
Another sinful person can't die for our sins either. Jesus was the solution to the sin problem. It was God's gift to mankind. Without this gift, we all meet the fate of the sinner: death. With this gift, we can live. Lucky for you, it's not based on some myth.

Let me ask you then as you believe your sins have been wiped away by the blood of Jesus shall you still die? The wages of sin is death right? So if your sins are removed then that means you won’t die by your own statement. So if you die that means by this criteria you have died a sinner and will taste of hell right?

2nd point’

Leviticus 1:4 He is to lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him.

Leviticus 1:4? Where is this translation from? Can u tell me the bible issue please?

And if the burnt sacrifice for his offering to the LORD be of fowls, then he shall bring his offering of turtledoves, or of young pigeons.
King James Version

And if the burnt sacrifice for his offering to the LORD shall be of fowls, then he shall bring his offering of turtle doves, or of young pigeons
Webster’s bible

What is your bible?

3rd point’
Jesus was crucified not burnt. He was not a burnet offering therefore this is not anything to do with him.

Correct, I won't die. I will be resurrected.

The Bible quote was from the NIV, but I use KJV. I'm not sure what you were trying to demonstrate with your Bible quotes from different versions. That is not the same verse I posted.

Jesus did not burn, but His blood was shed. Hence, atonement.

Read the verse I all ready posted:
Leviticus 17:11 (King James Version)

11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Fanny Cradock

chozometroid wrote: »

Correct, I won't die. I will be resurrected

Maybe I'm picking you up wrong here, but I'd have to strongly disagree with your statement. I think that the bible (not to mention everyday observation) makes it perfectly clear that physical death is part of our temporal existence, so to speak. It's after death that Christianity promises bodily resurrection (not sure about your take on this). Look to the Gospel accounts of Jesus post resurrection. While he is described as a physical being, he is also described - quite mysteriously yet also matter-of-factly - as being more human than before.

I would encourage you to read Surprised by Hope for more on this. Wonderful stuff!

Yusuf Mirza, I'm unsure what your point about translations is. The context remains the same in both of the versions you quoted. Maybe you should consider that while all translations use different words to the original, they aren't necessarily a corruption of that text.

chozometroid

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Maybe I'm picking you up wrong here, but I'd have to strongly disagree with your statement. I think that the bible (not to mention everyday observation) makes it perfectly clear that physical death is part of our temporal existence, so to speak. It's after death that Christianity promises bodily resurrection (not sure about your take on this). Look to the Gospel accounts of Jesus post resurrection. While he is described as a physical being, he is also described - quite mysteriously yet also matter-of-factly - as being more human than before.

I would encourage you to read Surprised by Hope for more on this. Wonderful stuff!

Yusuf Mirza, I'm unsure what your point about translations is. The context remains the same in both of the versions you quoted. Maybe you should consider that while all translations use different words to the original, they aren't necessarily a corruption of that text.

I didn't mean I won't or can't die (unless I'm translated in the end). I was just trying to avoid the trap of Yusuf's query.
The point is, I won't face the death penalty for sin. Any death I face will be temporary (if I am worthy and have received salvation).

Panrich

Lots of debate but still aint got a date.

Presumably, this falls into the 'We'll have to get back to you' category.

Fanny Cradock

chozometroid wrote: »

I didn't mean I won't or can't die (unless I'm translated in the end). I was just trying to avoid the trap of Yusuf's query.
The point is, I won't face the death penalty for sin. Any death I face will be temporary (if I am worthy and have received salvation).

Apologies. I thought that you were thinking along those lines, but I thought it needed to be spelled out for Yusuf's sake.

Panrich wrote: »

Lots of debate but still aint got a date.

Presumably, this falls into the 'We'll have to get back to you' category.

Were you expecting one? Jesus explicitly says that no one but the Father knows the day or the hour. (This could make an interesting point for a discussion on the omniscience (or not) of Jesus.) So why bother looking for a date?

I would think that Christians should be more concerned with helping build the Kingdom - by working for social justice etc. - rather than worrying about something that is entirely in God's hands.

Yusuf Mirza

I agree. Jesus said that “the kingdom of God is inside of you”. We should remember that we should not spend our lives looking to the skies but rather all work together to make the kingdom of God a reality in our own lives instead of all just sitting at home and looking at the clock. God is manifest in his Holy Spirit or as it is known in Islam as the “Rahool Kudus” (the spirit of love). God is with us and in us and all we have to do is call upon him. In the Qur’an God tells Muhammad (as) to tell the believers “Say I am near. I answer the prayers of the supplicant when he supplicates” and “verily I am nearer to you then even your own jugular vein”. God is not a vague far away concept rather a living reality. Having created man he has not abandoned us. He is ever present sustaining us and watching over the universe from the largest galaxy to us in our own everyday trials. The very point of Religion and Faith is that it benefits one’s life otherwise how can we call others to faith if they look at us and see no change in us. We must become the lamps of God wherein he shines and illuminates the darkest night. Inshallah.:)

Fanny Cradock

I'm glad we can find some commonality.

One thing though! I'm not aware that Jesus ever said such a thing.

In a Christian context, the meaning behind The Kingdom is not the vague promise of some spiritual existence somewhere out there after life is over, nor is it some wishy-washy promise that something like a warm fuzzy feeling will dwell within you if you just so happen to say the right prayers. Rather, the Bible speaks of it as the culmination of creation - a new heavens and a new earth. The belief is that Jesus' resurrection was point in time, space and whatever or wherever elsewhere that the coming Kingdom was inaugurated.

Again, even if it's only for your own edification, I would suggest reading the book I linked to previously if you want a considerably better explanation on one of the most commonly misunderstood concepts about Christianity (sadly even amongst Christians).

hivizman

I think that Yusuf Mirza may be thinking of saying 3 of the Coptic Gospel of Thomas:

Jesus says:
3.1 "If those who lead you say to you: 'Look, the kingdom is in the sky!'
then the birds of the sky will precede you.
3.2 If they say to you: 'It is in the sea,' then the fishes will precede you.
3.3 Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and outside of you."
-
3.4 "When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known,
and you will realize that you are the children of the living Father.
3.5 But if you do not come to know yourselves,
then you exist in poverty, and you are poverty."

Patterson-Robinson-BWG translation

Leo Tolstoy wrote a book called (in English translation) The Kingdom of God is Within You, which puts forward his philosophy of non-violent resistance - Tolstoy's book was a major influence on the thinking of Ghandi. The English title of the book is derived from Luke 17:21 - in the King James Version, this verse reads: "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." However, later translations say that the kingdom of God is "among you" or "in your midst", with no implication that God's Kingdom is in some way internalised and psychological rather than being an external Kingdom in which we can subsist.

Yusuf Mirza

Count Toldtoy was a good friend to the Ahmadiyyat Muslims. Once one of our missioneries wrote to him and sent him the picture of the one whome we believe to be the Promised Mesiah Mirza Ghulam Ahmad;

The detailed response from Count Tolstoy was:

‘

To Mufti Muhammad Sadiq Sahib,

Dear friend! Your letter along with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s picture

and a sample of the magazine

Review of Religions has been

received. To engage in the proof of the death of Christ or in the

investigation of his tomb, is a futile effort because an intelligent
man can never believe that Jesus is still alive…. We need
reasoned religious teaching and if Mr Mirza presents a new
reasonable proposition then I am ready to benefit from it. In the

specimen number, I approved very much two articles, ‘How to get

rid of the Bondage of Sin’ and ‘The Life to Come’, especially the
second. The idea is very profound and very true. I am most
thankful to you for sending me this and am also grateful for your
l e t t e r.:)

Yours Sincerely, Tolstoy, from Russia. 5th June 1903.’

(Zikre Habib pp 399-401 published Qadian, First Edition,
December 1936)

Yusuf Mirza

Malty_T wrote: »

Sin has increased???

Malty_T wrote: »

Hmm..

Equality of status for women,
Slavery Abolished,
Better treatment towards Gays and lesbians,
Abhorrence of racism,
Wars have become far less frequent.
All though the numbers of people killed by other humans has increased, proportion wise there has been a dramatic drop.
Recognition of Human Rights,
Respect to other religions and other cultures (as long as they are humane).
Improved science and knowledge that has helped us to understands ourselves better e.g We are more aware and understanding of disabilities and mental illness and the stigma/taboo against them is slowly waning away.

Sin increased....
my ass!!

Removal of Sin= Sociological/Cultural/Technical advancement? F-
You’re A*s? Please try to display some civility in a public forum.

Before Jesus came according to my Christian friends (of which I was one) the world was steeped in sin and weighed down by sin. Yet there came about civilised, advanced and antiquated cultures such as the world had never seen. The Empires of Ancient Egypt, Assyria, Persia and Rome. So advancements have nothing to do with the discussion of or on sin my dear friend. Even my Christian brothers and sisters will disagree with you I am confident. What I was talking about and exploring in that post, respectfully, was the subject of sin and salvation in the Christian religion.

The point I was making was as follows; That the point of the Cross was that at that time and at that moment all sins were obliterated and man was reconciled with his God eternally. If sin remained in any manner after the Cross then Jesus did not himself as it is claimed take away the sins of the world. He cannot have taken “all” sins upon himself if there are still some lying around. But yes we see that sin has increased exponentially on Earth since then.

One Christian brother argued that Jesus simply came to open the door to salvation but one must choose to walk trough that door. (a downgrade?) How? By accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savour who came to rid them of sin!

But what they really are saying and in fact they do not even delve into this and realise is that in their theology Jesus just takes the sting of the sin and not the sin itself. That Jesus takes and removes the consequences of the sin but not the sinning nature itself. Remember that the first man was Adam. He was perfect. He was sinless. Agree? But did Adam not commit a sin in disobeying God and such a sin that has resonance to this day? This was pre-fall. It was that sin which resulted in God deciding to send his “begotten” son into this world to die upon a cross in order to rectify it. So even if Jesus removes your sins and you revert to being like Adam then you would still have the capacity to sin.

As to your original point dear friend? Remember that all the advancements you have lauded came far and long after Jesus took to the Cross. Many came over 1,950 years after (that’s about a little over 50 years ago friend). In fact many of these abuses that you have detailed like slavery and repression of women were justified (wrongly) upon the Bible. Take the so called White Knights of the klu Klux Clan for instance that used the burning cross as their symbol and were openly supported by a large number of Christian preachers and pastors until relatively recently.

And on some of the points which you have raised;
*Homosexuality as you have mentioned as proof of the end of sin is still known as a sin in its self in the Abrahamic Scriptures.
*Wars are on the increase dramatically.
*Recognition of human rights has fallen dramatically since 9/11 even within Europe itself.
*Respect for religions? I think you’ll find that religious tolerance is sliping back to medevil times.