Bus Lanes

Para1

Sorry in advance if this question has being asked before.
Are ambulances/fire tenders/garda cars leaglly allowed to use bus lanes, just wondering if a member could clarify that for me, thanks in advance.

Shield

Yes they are.

Para1

psni wrote: »

Yes they are.

Thanks, could anyone tell me the leglislation pretaining to that?

Elessar

I can't see that referenced anywhere in the rules of the road psni? I have been told by a guard that emergency services vehicles are only exempt from speeding (under lights) and parking restrictions. That the bus lane use was not technically legal but not frowned upon at all?

I'm sure NGA could clarify.

Whitewater-AGS

Gardai are exempt from all road traffic legislation while acting in the course of their dutys this is mentioned in the rta's but dont have the section to hand

Shield

Elessar wrote: »

I can't see that referenced anywhere in the rules of the road psni? I have been told by a guard that emergency services vehicles are only exempt from speeding (under lights) and parking restrictions. That the bus lane use was not technically legal but not frowned upon at all?

I'm sure NGA could clarify.

I don't think you'll see it in the Rules of the Road either. It's somewhere in the RTA, but I understood the question to mean - Are they allowed to use bus lanes in the execution of duty. If it's just to get to the nearest McDonalds in rush hour, then the answer would obviously be No!

Elessar

What about other ES? Ambulances and the like. I see them using bus lanes all the time, mostly while not under emergency conditions.

Random

Elessar wrote: »

What about other ES? Ambulances and the like. I see them using bus lanes all the time, mostly while not under emergency conditions.

Is it not a case where sometimes ES don't actually use the blue lights as it may hinder their progress?

Shield

In the execution of duty is allowed. Bear in mind, you never know when an ambulance is on a call or not. Just because they don't have blues and twos on doesn't mean they're not going to a call or bringing someone to hospital.

Whitewater-AGS

The short version of things is that once we are on duty we can drive in bus lanes, park on double yellows ect ect ect

robinph

I thought it was just that the breaking of the rules was ignored in most cases. If an emergency service vehicle is going through a red light for instance and crashes into another vehicle then they are still at fault, regardless of if they have the lights and sirens on.

Shield

Well yes of course, it goes without saying that the driver must proceed with caution when passing through red lights and liability usually lies with the driver if he crashes into another road user. Being exempt from the RTA doesn't mean being exempt from liability at an accident.

meathstevie

As a driver of an emergency vehicle you can make the decission to disobey traffic signals or signs, roadmarkings, drive down the hard shoulder of a dual carraigeway or motorway and so on and so on when you're on an emergency call and you can justify your actions by the seriousness of the call.

For example; John the Garda can expect a load of trouble driving down the Donnybrook dual carraigeway at 90 mph to go to a call at the Radisson Hotel where the waiter has reported a spoon stolen by an unidentified punter. When John would be attending the same location and the waiter has reported that there's a fight at a wedding and four lads are kicking one lad in the head and John didn't drive down the dualer at 90mph he'd be in a load of bother too.

There's one thing you'll always have in common with any other driver on the road though : you're responsible for your own actions and you're just as open to legal consequences as everybody else.

Mr Jinx

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

The short version of things is that once we are on duty we can drive in bus lanes, park on double yellows ect ect ect

I dont think any reasonable person would object to ES personnel using bus lanes if their responding to an emergency or not. At the end of the day if fire and ambulance vehicles are not going to an call, they are on the way back and as far as im concerned the quicker they get back to base to refuel, restock, clean equipment etc. the better. Also AGS vehicles would not always respond to a call under lights and sirens, eg. a Burglary but it makes sense to use the quickest route to get there.

the locust

Can't find the road traffic act thing but for Dublin its a general bye law i think its S.I. No. 82/1980:

DUBLIN TRAFFIC AND PARKING BYE-LAWS
BUS LANES
Part we're disscussing would be 25. b)
25. This Part does not apply to—
( b ) a fire engine, an ambulance or any vehicle in the service of the Garda Síochána while being used in pursuance of statutory powers of duties.

robinph

It's not "these laws do not apply if you have blue flashing lights".

It's more "we happen to ignore these ones to make your job easier when you have blue flashing lights, but the same laws still apply if you give us reason to apply them".

Para1

So if im right taxi`s can legally use them to make a profit, same with private bus services etc, but ambulances and fire tenders cannot legally use them, dosent make sence to me. What if i was on the way back from a call where i didnt have to transport a patient, but i used a lot of my equiptment (oxygen etc) and needed to restock?? do i sit in traffic or use the bus lane to get back as quick as possible and restock?

Shield

Para1 wrote: »

So if im right taxi`s can legally use them to make a profit, same with private bus services etc, but ambulances and fire tenders cannot legally use them, dosent make sence to me. What if i was on the way back from a call where i didnt have to transport a patient, but i used a lot of my equiptment (oxygen etc) and needed to restock?? do i sit in traffic or use the bus lane to get back as quick as possible and restock?

Taxis can use them. Of course they can. They're a public service vehicle. Private bus services cannot because they are private hire vehicles. As above, ambulance, fire tenders and AGS can use them while on duty. You are on duty if you are using the vehicle for work purposes - even if that means going back to restock. You are not on duty if you are on your lunch and you are driving to McDonalds. I don't think I can make my explanations any clearer.

Have we not done this in the last few weeks?

999/112

Elessar wrote: »

What about other ES? Ambulances and the like. I see them using bus lanes all the time, mostly while not under emergency conditions.

Transfers?

A paramedic told me that when he uses bus lanes he avoids [if possible] the "two's". Drivers further up in the traffic lane will move into his already clear path, in the bus lane, thinking that they are doing a "good deed" for the emergency vehicle behind them, when they really only block his progress!

donvito99

999/112 wrote: »

Transfers?

A paramedic told me that when he uses bus lanes he avoids [if possible] the "two's". Drivers further up in the traffic lane will move into his already clear path, in the bus lane, thinking that they are doing a "good deed" for the emergency vehicle behind them, when they really only block his progress!

Very true, the same way it is not preferable for EV's to use the Hard Shoulder on a duel carriageway.

meathstevie

There's no cast in stone rules for blue light and siren runs anyway but the simple fact that you try to make as much progress as quick as possible while always keeping safety in mind when you believe there's a pressing need to do so.

Occam

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Gardai are exempt from all road traffic legislation while acting in the course of their dutys this is mentioned in the rta's but dont have the section to hand

This is totally wrong, and is a misunderstanding held by many Gardai.

Gardai are not exempt from S49 and the associated sections relating to testing.

In addition, the exemptions which are given, only apply if "such use does not endanger the safety of road users". So a Garda, driving dangerously on a busy road is prosecutable.

source

Section 27, Road Traffic Act, 2004

Requirements under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2004 relating to vehicles and requirements, restrictions and prohibitions relating to the driving and use of vehicles, other than those provided under sections 49 and 50 (inserted by sections 10 and 11, respectively, of the Act of 1994), 51A and 52 (inserted by sections 49 and 50, respectively, of the Act of 1968) and 53 of the Principal Act and sections 12, 13, 14 and 15 of the Act of 1994, do not apply to a driver of a fire brigade vehicle, an ambulance or the use by a member of the Garda Síochána of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of that member or a person driving or using a vehicle under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána, where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.

Link

This allows Gardai, to drive in bus lanes, which is what this thread is about. As for endangering the safety of road users, what appears dangerous to one person does not to another.

For example forcing your way through traffic with lights and sirens, (you'll be doing no more than 20-40kmph in this situation, is not dangerous, It's a careful and measured process.

What people need to realise is that the majority of Gardai you see driving on the road have a driving course done, which teaches them how to drive in these situations.

dredre

foinse wrote: »

Link

What people need to realise is that the majority of Gardai you see driving on the road have a driving course done, which teaches them how to drive in these situations.

Really?

source

dredre wrote: »

Really?

Yes dredre really, you'll note that i used the word "majority" and not "all", i'm the first to admit that yes sometimes drivers on chiefs will drive hard, but i can say from experience that these are considerably less in number than you might think, the consequences for the driver if something was to happen is not worth it.

And one final point on this, i have no problem with someone on chiefs driving hard in an emergency situation if a life is at risk, at the end of the day, the main reason we are here is to protect life.

Occam

Occam wrote: »

This is totally wrong, and is a misunderstanding held by many Gardai.

Gardai are not exempt from S49 and the associated sections relating to testing.

In addition, the exemptions which are given, only apply if "such use does not endanger the safety of road users". So a Garda, driving dangerously on a busy road is prosecutable.

I don't think that any member even remotely thinks that they can drive while intoxicated. And if they did, you could be sure that the member with them would stop them.

Occam

foreign wrote: »

I don't think that any member even remotely thinks that they can drive while intoxicated. And if they did, you could be sure that the member with them would stop them.

A number of members have been found drink driving, in some cases while on duty. A member at an embassey in ballsbridge for example, and a senior traffic corps member.

It happens.

foinse wrote: »

As for endangering the safety of road users, what appears dangerous to one person does not to another.

This is what a jury is for. A Lucan based member was prosecuted a number of years ago in relation to a collision when he responded to an assit call. The judge directed the jury to find not guilty, but its a good reminder to members that if you are involved in a collision you could be hung out to dry.

foinse wrote: »

For example forcing your way through traffic with lights and sirens, (you'll be doing no more than 20-40kmph in this situation, is not dangerous, It's a careful and measured process.

Lets not pretend its always a careful and measured process.

foinse wrote: »

What people need to realise is that the majority of Gardai you see driving on the road have a driving course done, which teaches them how to drive in these situations.

Hmm that could be debated. The Garda inspectorates report from Dec last year indicated that 2,600 gardai are driving on chiefs. Indeed the report noted that this presented a "serious safety issue for police officers and the public" which must be addressed urgently.

source

Occam wrote: »

Hmm that could be debated. The Garda inspectorates report from Dec last year indicated that 2,600 gardai are driving on chiefs. Indeed the report noted that this presented a "serious safety issue for police officers and the public" which must be addressed urgently.

yes 2,600 members driving on chiefs, let's say another 4,000 who don't drive, that's 6,600 out of 14,000 that leaves 7,400 drivers which are trained to drive by AGS. So as I said the MAJORITY of drivers are trained drivers.

(Please note the figure. Of 4,000 is an educated guess, erring on the side of caution I went with a figure which is possibly greater than the actual figure, this is due to a lack of clear and available information on this topic)

I'm not defending people driving dangerously on chiefs, I personally would love if all members were given driver training in college, but it doesn't happen.

Also we appear to have gone waaaay off topic, is this thread not supposed to be about the legality of emergency vehicles using bus lanes? And has that question not already been answered?

Occam

Occam wrote: »

A number of members have been found drink driving, in some cases while on duty. A member at an embassey in ballsbridge for example, and a senior traffic corps member.

It happens.

The embassy garda was arrested in his own car after leaving his post following a disagreement with his collegue. He was not driving a state car.

And if I remember correctly the Traffic Corps man was off duty?

Either way. It thankfully does not seem to happen with patrol car drivers on duty.