[Article] New Knock Airport terminal opens

Victor · 16-10-2009 7:52pm #1

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1016/breaking75.htm

New Knock Airport terminal opens

A redeveloped €5.5 million terminal at Ireland West Airport Knock with extended check-in facilities and a new security screening area was officially opened today.

The Kennedy Terminal also has increased space in the departures lounge and new retail and catering facilities. It was opened by the Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey.

Management at the airport expect passenger numbers to rise to over 1 million next year.

Last year was the busiest year to date for the airport with passenger numbers rising 13 per cent to 629,000.

Victor · 16-10-2009 9:02pm

http://www.irelandwestairport.com/airportguide/airportdevelopments.aspx

http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/Regional_Airports/Regional_Airports.html

triple-M · 16-10-2009 10:00pm

nice

G_R · 16-10-2009 11:12pm

am i alone in thinking that there really is better things to be spending money on at the moment??

Run_to_da_hills · 16-10-2009 11:24pm

dannym08 wrote: »

am i alone in thinking that there really is better things to be spending money on at the moment??

farranfore will be next, new multistory carpark, etc.

bandit197 · 16-10-2009 11:24pm

dannym08 wrote: »

am i alone in thinking that there really is better things to be spending money on at the moment??

Passenger numbers passing through Ireland West are growing every year.
Surely spending to improve our transportation infrastructure is money well spent?

G_R · 16-10-2009 11:30pm

bandit197 wrote: »

Surely spending to improve our transportation infrastructure is money well spent?

definitely, i totally agree. But with the government coffers in the state they're in i feel that spending should be prioritised and tbh i wouldn't consider Knock to be a priority

However, just thinking about it now, this was probably approved and paid for 3 or 4 years ago so i should stop moaning

Hotblack Desiato · 16-10-2009 11:51pm

dannym08 wrote:

am i alone in thinking that there really is better things to be spending money on at the moment??

Exactly. If Knock funded this themselves then fine, but it's far from clear at the moment whether that was the case.

Is it just another occurrence of Dublin Airport passengers paying for gold-plated facilities elsewhere, while having to go through the Black Hole of Collinstown themselves?

baalthor · 16-10-2009 11:57pm

Victor wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1016/breaking75.htm

They're expecting passenger numbers to rise from 639k to over 1 million - a 56% rise in one year !

Is this because everyone is emigrating or are they expecting the Holy Family to make their long awaited re-appearance at Knock ??

Blackjack · 17-10-2009 12:08am

ninja900 wrote: »

Exactly. If Knock funded this themselves then fine, but it's far from clear at the moment whether that was the case.

Is it just another occurrence of Dublin Airport passengers paying for gold-plated facilities elsewhere, while having to go through the Black Hole of Collinstown themselves?

you must have missed the mighty big building thats going on in Dublin Airport.

I believe they're calling it "Terminal 2".

Or perhaps everywhere else in the country should wait until everything in Dublin is nice and Shiny before daring to develop?

westtip · 17-10-2009 8:59am

The official opening may have been this week - I think it has been operational for about a year. Just another photo-op for those w***ker politicians - I wonder how much that little party cost - was it really necessary will it bring one more traveller through Knock - the money would have been better spent on a local advertising campaign or perhaps one more job at the airport for a year. I wonder did Dempsey mention in his speech before he cut the ribbon the fact that bus halts built outside the new terminal for buses to pull off the N17 and actually connect Knock to the outside world by public transport are not being used, why because the unionised drivers at BE apparantly want more money for adding this stop to the routes - This is hearsay BTW before anyone asks for proof but it is totally believable. Dempsey signed off on the order allowing buses to go to Knock about 4 years ago - I think I will check the speech out and drop him a line. Tosser.

westtip · 17-10-2009 9:12am

ninja900 wrote: »

Exactly. If Knock funded this themselves then fine, but it's far from clear at the moment whether that was the case.

Is it just another occurrence of Dublin Airport passengers paying for gold-plated facilities elsewhere, while having to go through the Black Hole of Collinstown themselves?

To give Knock its due it has been transparent about the reason behind the ten euro departure fee all passengers over 12 have to pay - this is a development fee and the monies from it have been re-invested back in the airport; yes money has also gone in from the public purse but comparing what has happened at Knock and the scale of the development at Dublin is ludicrous. The facilities at Knock are not "gold plated" but like any regional airport compared to any large city airport it is a much better flying experience. If I lived in the Midlands for example I would choose to fly from Knock as oppposed to Dublin any day of the week for short hop flying to the UK - With a print and go boarding card it is quite possible to arrive at Knock with 45 minutes to go before departure and easily make your flight - could not say the same of Dublin - you need 45 minutes to get from the (long stay) car park to the terminal....Don't knock it till you've tried it (sorry!)

Chris_533976 · 17-10-2009 1:38pm

Knock shouldnt be a priority, but I do think we need to consolidate airports. We have too many.

In the ROI, we only need Dublin, Cork, Shannon and possibly Knock. (Galway airport is too close to Shannon with the M18 and Waterford is close to Cork and Dublin with the M9 and future N25). Once we have the motorways done, these airports will be about 2 hours away from just about anyone which is perfectly good enough. Not every town needs an airport.

Our man in Havana · 17-10-2009 1:56pm

Does Knock still have the cash tax that must be paid upon checkin?

DWCommuter · 17-10-2009 6:26pm

Knock airport is a classic example of rediculous planning in this country. Originally the folly of a religion to bring pilgrammes to a shrine and now a reasonably sized airport with a reasonable patronage of passengers that aren't interested in a shrine at all!

Realistically, Galway airport should have been developed instead and transport links to and from it upgraded to cater for the Sligo/Mayo/Galway/ areas. Building an airport close to a small city is one thing, but building one in a bog is over elaboration altogether.

I wish it the best, though I doubt the original intent was to fly thousands of horny westeners to the sun for a drink fuelled week of "D OTHER".;)

May God forgive them all.:D

westtip · 18-10-2009 1:34pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

Does Knock still have the cash tax that must be paid upon checkin?

As mentioned above:

westtip wrote: »

To give Knock its due it has been transparent about the reason behind the ten euro departure fee all passengers over 12 have to pay - this is a development fee and the monies from it have been re-invested back in the airport;

I can see the points made about Knock should never have been built etc - but it is dam handy for me! (40 minutes drive), I wouldn't mind if Galway had been the airport they had developed in the west instead - as long as the N17 had been upgraded.

Anway back to that twat Dempsey here is is his speech he made:

Speech by Noel Dempsey T.D Minister for Transport At the official opening of Ireland West Airport Knock New Terminal
16 - 10 - 2009
Back to Speeches

;

I am delighted to be to here today on the occasion of the official opening of the new terminal building.

Over the years there has been a very good partnership between my Department and the airport in encouraging the development of Ireland West Airport Knock. The enthusiasm and drive of the previous and current boards and the airport management are well recognised. Without that initiative the airport would have not made significant strides in building the healthy passenger base and diverse range of services, which it now enjoys.

The airport rightly sees itself as a vital piece of infrastructure for the social and economic development of the west and northwest.
As a result of Government investment of €9.4m since 2006, the airport have been able to proceed with a number of important projects including the terminal extension that we are celebrating her today. In addition the investment made has lead to improved safety and security systems and enhancements to the instrument landing system and a runway upgrade. Passengers will have more comfort in the extended terminal and services will be more reliable as a result of reduced diversions caused previously by poor weather and low visibility.

In the area of transport capital expenditure, I want to maintain investment insofar as practicable in the current circumstances.
At the same time, we have to be realistic and prioritise. In pursuing our transport investment strategy, we are acutely conscious of the need to promote balanced development across the whole of Ireland. In Transport 21 have set out national objectives which are:

to create a high quality, efficient national road and rail network consistent with the objectives of the National Spatial Strategy;
to provide for a significant increase in public transport use in regional cities;
to strengthen national, regional and local public transport services;
and to enhance safety and security facilities at the regional airports.

As we now know, Transport 21 was drawn up towards the end of the boom. However, that does not change our overall goals. We still need to improve our infrastructure if we are to strengthen our competitiveness and promote a return to economic growth; and we still need to address the regional imbalance in our infrastructure and our economic development.

For the time being, we have to do this in the context of scarcer resources than we anticipated when Transport 21 was launched. To do this, we have the task of identifying priorities. My Government colleagues and I are giving our attention to those priorities in finalising the capital expenditure budget for 2010.

Under the Transport 21 umbrella the Government approved in February 2007 an €86m programme of grant aid for specific projects at the six regional airports up to the end of 2010. Unfortunately because of the current difficulties with the public finances, there has had to be a deferral of the full implementation of the programme. Meanwhile, my Department are working with the regional airports on the funding of committed investment under the original programme and this will continue into 2010.

We all admire the ambition and energy of the airport in performing a unique role in this region by reaching out to its catchment area and population base.

I know that that the airport are pursuing the creation of a western regional enterprise and innovation hub based on a 65 acre site adjacent to the airport. I wish them well in these efforts.

So far the airport has done much for the region. All airports and the aviation sector as a whole are struggling with the impact of the international recession but I have no doubt this airport is well positioned to benefit from the recovery when it comes. With the help of recent investment in its facilities the airport will act as a catalyst for economic and tourism growth for the foreseeable future.

The new terminal, which I have the honour to officially open today, is a tangible product of the dreams and achievement that have characterised the airport and its rapid traffic growth in recent years. Í am sure that that your ambition will continue to bear fruit in success for the airport and the region in the years ahead. You can be assured that my Department will play its part in supporting the airport in line with Government approved investment and to the extent that our public finances permit us to do so.

ENDS;

Not a mention to no buses calling at the new terminal - I note. Mind you plenty of warnings about what is not going to happen in the future.

Hotblack Desiato · 20-10-2009 11:47pm

Blackjack wrote: »

you must have missed the mighty big building thats going on in Dublin Airport.

I believe they're calling it "Terminal 2".

I'm well aware of it. I'm also sorely aware that it should have been built years ago. Dublin Airport's facilities have been a sorry mess for most of its existence.

Or perhaps everywhere else in the country should wait until everything in Dublin is nice and Shiny before daring to develop?

It seems to me that in the west you can get something built on the promise of 'build it and they will come'. In the east (not just Dublin by any means) even infrastructure that huge numbers of people have been desperate for for years gets long-fingered and done on the cheap (the M50 being just the most obvious example) that stifles the economy and employment and costs far more to put right in the end than if it was done on time and done right the first time.

Fair play to Knock if they can make this pay, but I have my doubts.

mysterious · 21-10-2009 1:22am

baalthor wrote: »

They're expecting passenger numbers to rise from 639k to over 1 million - a 56% rise in one year !

Is this because everyone is emigrating or are they expecting the Holy Family to make their long awaited re-appearance at Knock ??

Everyone wants to visit Croagh Patrick, I believe. Off the plane and off they go. It's very convienant really!

I think people choose Knock so you can see sheep on the hills when you look outside. When you go to Shannon you rarely see them because you only see cows really.

ednwireland · 21-10-2009 9:52am

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Knock shouldnt be a priority, but I do think we need to consolidate airports. We have too many.

In the ROI, we only need Dublin, Cork, Shannon and possibly Knock. (Galway airport is too close to Shannon with the M18 and Waterford is close to Cork and Dublin with the M9 and future N25). Once we have the motorways done, these airports will be about 2 hours away from just about anyone which is perfectly good enough. Not every town needs an airport.

typical south centric view :mad:

nobody north of line from dublin to galway should have anything, our company has started using knock rather than belfast more since its increased its flights (all our work is in the uk)

shannon is over three hours drive, belfast 2.5 knock 1 to 1.5 dublin 4 (and we are in donegal town)

Neworder79 · 21-10-2009 10:02am

This forum is turning into a farce, where every newsworthy thread on Public Transport in Ireland is turned into an moronic list of us vs them rants and personal peeve monologues.

Surely any infrastructure advancement in this country is to be welcomed given the snails pace our planners move at and the NDP projects under question.

A few facts for disgruntled:

- The NDP program of capital investments in regional airports required 50% be provided by the airports themselves.

- Ireland West Airport was profitable for the last 3 years and did not require operational subvention, it raised part of the investment from it's own resources and charges.

- The Ireland West terminal extension cost less than €5m, and is hardly comparable to the major 10 year €1.2bn programme at Dublin, or Corks completely new €150m terminal.

- The "new treminal" at Ireland West is really a no frills 3,000 sq/m extension to the previous tiny departure area which was severely overcrowded at peak times and only designed to cater for half it's current usage numbers (630,000 in 08).

- It adds extended security screening and check in facilities, increased departures lounge space as well as new retail, catering and admin facilities for departing passengers. It also added office space for the airports management who previously operated out of portacabins.

They have maintained their numbers and routes at Knock through the worst recession in memory with a low cost base for the carriers, so it is entirely possible that when the economy begins to recover again they could grow the annual passengers past 1m, especially if Ryanair continue to add european routes.

westtip · 21-10-2009 3:35pm

ednwireland wrote: »

typical south centric view :mad:

nobody north of line from dublin to galway should have anything, our company has started using knock rather than belfast more since its increased its flights (all our work is in the uk)

shannon is over three hours drive, belfast 2.5 knock 1 to 1.5 dublin 4 (and we are in donegal town)

Good point if I were doing business in the Midlands I would rather go to Knock for the lesser parking charges, no tolls on the roads to Knock (eg from say Athlone - M4 and M50) and much lesser time from car park to flight. To your drive times from Donegal you should add:

Time from car park to departure gate: Belfast ? I don't know, rarely use it, Dublin at least an hour to an hour and a half, Knock - anything from ten minutes to 25 minutes. Factor these into your total journey time and Knock starts looking very attractive! If you have a flight at say 12 noon you could park your car in Knock Airport at 11 and have a comfortable coffee and read of the paper before you board at 11.45 and not be sweating about missing the flight. I wouldn't fancy pulling into the long term in Dublin with only an hour to go before flying.

BTW when you take the N17 from Donegal to Knock be wary of the constant speed traps they have in Curry!

serfboard · 21-10-2009 5:30pm

Not many people on here are mentioning what was more important to Knock than just the new terminal - the upgrading of the Instrument Landing System to CAT II. This will mean that less flights will have to divert at the airport. Having been on a flight that had to go around three times before landing I can appreciate that.

This will not doubt be very useful in marketing the airport to the various airline companies - hence their ambition of a million passengers. When you can tell the airlines that you have CAT II, they will be more likely to try it.

westtip · 21-10-2009 9:00pm

serfboard wrote: »

Not many people on here are mentioning what was more important to Knock than just the new terminal - the upgrading of the Instrument Landing System to CAT II. This will mean that less flights will have to divert at the airport. Having been on a flight that had to go around three times before landing I can appreciate that.

This will not doubt be very useful in marketing the airport to the various airline companies - hence their ambition of a million passengers. When you can tell the airlines that you have CAT II, they will be more likely to try it.

Good point Serf I turned up for a flight in Feb of this year on a saturday afternoon to East Mids and the aircraft couldn't land, cost me a night of fun.

Blackjack · 21-10-2009 9:08pm

ninja900 wrote: »

I'm well aware of it. I'm also sorely aware that it should have been built years ago. Dublin Airport's facilities have been a sorry mess for most of its existence.

good for you. Glad you noticed. As a frequent flyer, I can tell you that having to deal with Dublin Airport, it needs to sort itself out, and stop treating passengers like an inconvenience. Remarkably, and unless you have flown through a regional Airport, you would not know it, but you're actually given more than a modicum of respect, and treated as a passenger should be.

ninja900 wrote: »

It seems to me that in the west you can get something built on the promise of 'build it and they will come'. In the east (not just Dublin by any means) even infrastructure that huge numbers of people have been desperate for for years gets long-fingered and done on the cheap (the M50 being just the most obvious example) that stifles the economy and employment and costs far more to put right in the end than if it was done on time and done right the first time.

Oh, woe is Dublin, because you don't actually have 2 Luas lines (that don't meet) or a subsidised public transport system - oh wait.....

lets compare- work began on the M50 in 1987. Knock Airport opened in 1986.
Are you seriously going to bitch about the M50 not being up to scratch 22 years on (given the expansion of Dublin in this time) to a development at a regional Airport that's probably smaller in size (and cost) than the median on a stretch of the same M50?. Get real.

Given that Ryanair started flights from Alicante in June just gone (when they're cutting back everywhere else) then perhaps it is a case of "build it and they will come". Maybe it's a case of "provide a service that people will use, they will come". I can't imagine Ryanair would be starting new routes unless they figured there was a demand.

Regional development in this Country is long overdue. If there are areas in Ireland that are successful at developing, then perhaps this should be taken as a case study for development of the greater Dublin area, using appropriate best practises taken from elsewhere, to see how and what could be done, rather than bitching and pointing a finger because somewhere outside the pale has a few cents spent on it.

For the record - Terminal 2 at Dublin will cost (Overall) 395 Million.
The new expansion at Knock forms a part of a total Capital Investment of 11.2 Million.

Surely given that Dublin is getting 35 times more of an investment, you can't be that begrudging?

Neworder79 · 21-10-2009 9:52pm

serfboard wrote: »

Not many people on here are mentioning what was more important to Knock than just the new terminal - the upgrading of the Instrument Landing System to CAT II. This will mean that less flights will have to divert at the airport. Having been on a flight that had to go around three times before landing I can appreciate that.

This will not doubt be very useful in marketing the airport to the various airline companies - hence their ambition of a million passengers. When you can tell the airlines that you have CAT II, they will be more likely to try it.

The airport have highlighted this in the press release. And aparrently there has only been 1 weather related diversion in 8 months. Ryanair have been operating early morning flights on stansted route this summer so it's defenetly a big advantage in guaranteeing service levels and cutting costs to the airlines.

westtip · 21-10-2009 10:06pm

Neworder79 wrote: »

The airport have highlighted this in the press release. And aparrently there has only been 1 weather related diversion in 8 months. Ryanair have been operating early morning flights on stansted route this summer so it's defenetly a big advantage in guarinteeing service levels and cutting costs to the airlines.

Must have been my flight (see two post up) !

Hotblack Desiato · 21-10-2009 11:30pm

Blackjack wrote: »

good for you. Glad you noticed. As a frequent flyer, I can tell you that having to deal with Dublin Airport, it needs to sort itself out, and stop treating passengers like an inconvenience. Remarkably, and unless you have flown through a regional Airport, you would not know it, but you're actually given more than a modicum of respect, and treated as a passenger should be.

If the facilities at Dublin were suitable for the numbers of people using them, it would be far more pleasant all round.

The point, of course, which I point out again, is that facilities in the west are provided in advance of demand, in the east far behind demand

lets compare- work began on the M50 in 1987. Knock Airport opened in 1986.
Are you seriously going to bitch about the M50 not being up to scratch 22 years on (given the expansion of Dublin in this time) to a development at a regional Airport that's probably smaller in size (and cost) than the median on a stretch of the same M50?. Get real.

I'm sorry, it's the Western Entitlement Lobby / Poor Mouth Popular Front (West on Track being only one example thereof) that needs to get real.

Do you honestly think that the West needs two international airports?

Fair play to Knock for making a go of things. Close down Shannon instead!

Then there's the regional airports dotted all over the place. It's our tax money keeping these irrelevances open. It can't be justified.

Given that Ryanair started flights from Alicante in June just gone (when they're cutting back everywhere else) then perhaps it is a case of "build it and they will come". Maybe it's a case of "provide a service that people will use, they will come". I can't imagine Ryanair would be starting new routes unless they figured there was a demand.

Ryanair will be paying Knock little or nothing. That's the way they do things. If Knock can still support themselves from their own revenue and turn a profit, then great. Becoming too dependent on FR is a dangerous strategy though.

Regional development in this Country is long overdue.

So, how many more international airports does the west coast need? :rolleyes:

Far too often, 'regional development' is a synonym for highly dubious politically-inspired projects out west, while real demand and real need (and real returns on investment) elsewhere is neglected.

If there are areas in Ireland that are successful at developing, then perhaps this should be taken as a case study for development of the greater Dublin area, using appropriate best practises taken from elsewhere, to see how and what could be done, rather than bitching and pointing a finger because somewhere outside the pale has a few cents spent on it.

The Dublin area is by far the most successful area at developing, in spite of being starved of infrastructure. It's called economy of scale.

Your case is to focus investment on where it will bring the least return, just so people in a particular area don't feel left out. This is nuts. Even if we weren't going through a massive budgetary crisis, it would still be nuts.

For the record - Terminal 2 at Dublin will cost (Overall) 395 Million.
The new expansion at Knock forms a part of a total Capital Investment of 11.2 Million.

Surely given that Dublin is getting 35 times more of an investment, you can't be that begrudging?

It's in accordance with the relative passenger numbers.

What I'm begrudging of is the years of delay of a vital piece of NATIONAL infrastructure and the hellish conditions hundreds of millions of passengers have had to endure during that time.

westtip · 22-10-2009 9:28am

ninja900 wrote: »

If the facilities at Dublin were suitable for the numbers of people using them, it would be far more pleasant all round.

The point, of course, which I point out again, is that facilities in the west are provided in advance of demand, in the east far behind demand

.

Not sure I agree with you on this point - The N17? Claregalway bypass, N5, can't say they have been "provided in advance of demand" can we? Knock is open for business more by luck than judgement or the result of some grand spatial plan - we have the holy shrine and the Monsignor to thank for its existence.

Lets not get into this west v east cr*p I live out west and have no time for it (this west v east stuff) I actually like living out here - The poor wesht does pretty well on a per capita spend basis - the issue of infrastructure being sorted out in Dublin really is a national issue (mind you so are the three projects in the west mentioned above). BTW Knock is not really an international airport - It relies on it's UK connections, It is essentially a regional airport within these islands, with a few sunshine flights in the summer - now that comment may set a few hares running but thats the way it is - we are so intertwined with the UK with people going back and forth every day, Knock just gives the west a UK shuttle service - is it international travel to go to the UK? I am sure many people would think not.

G_R · 22-10-2009 5:32pm

westtip wrote: »

is it international travel to go to the UK? I am sure many people would think not.

of course it is. its a different country. Dublin to Belfast is also international. Because of the Common Travel Area between Ireland and the UK, flights are treated like Internal flights on landing but they are International

Hotblack Desiato · 22-10-2009 7:59pm

westtip wrote: »

Not sure I agree with you on this point - The N17? Claregalway bypass, N5, can't say they have been "provided in advance of demand" can we?

Where did I say that ALL infrastructure in the west is provided ahead of demand? Nowhere. There are deficits of one kind or another all over the country. It's how we choose to prioritise the rectification of those deficits which is, too often, hijacked by political considerations.

Knock is open for business more by luck than judgement or the result of some grand spatial plan - we have the holy shrine and the Monsignor to thank for its existence.

Knock is the ultimate example of 'built it and they will come'*. Fair play to its management for making a go of it, but rationally if we were starting it over again, we wouldn't!

* Shannon is 'build it and if they don't come we'll force them to stop over' :rolleyes: :pac:

Lets not get into this west v east cr*p I live out west and have no time for it (this west v east stuff)

I have no argument with the West or the people there or even those trying to get their pet project to the top of the queue (as long as they play fair and don't use a mixture of hype, lies, bluster and threats...) It's the government that needs to keep the national and regional interests balanced, and ensure that investment goes where it should not where it will win votes. They haven't done that.

Blackjack · 22-10-2009 8:37pm

ninja900 wrote: »

If the facilities at Dublin were suitable for the numbers of people using them, it would be far more pleasant all round.

The point, of course, which I point out again, is that facilities in the west are provided in advance of demand, in the east far behind demand

Oh dearie "poor Old Dublin sure doesn't the country get everything".:rolleyes:
Please spare me the poor mouth. Dublin has been expanding for years - it's not the fault of the regions the planners in Dublin have no foresight.

ninja900 wrote: »

I'm sorry, it's the Western Entitlement Lobby / Poor Mouth Popular Front (West on Track being only one example thereof) that needs to get real.

Do you honestly think that the West needs two international airports?

Fair play to Knock for making a go of things. Close down Shannon instead!

yes, of course - lets make sure it's all nice and Shiny in Dublin - THEN we can spend the money elsewhere.

It doesn't matter whether I think that we need Airports in the west - it's whether there is a demand for their services - clearly, there is.

ninja900 wrote: »

Then there's the regional airports dotted all over the place. It's our tax money keeping these irrelevances open. It can't be justified.

It's my tax money that pays for Stuff in Dublin too - just because you don't use the service, doesn't mean tax monies shouldn't be spent on them.

ninja900 wrote: »

Ryanair will be paying Knock little or nothing. That's the way they do things. If Knock can still support themselves from their own revenue and turn a profit, then great. Becoming too dependent on FR is a dangerous strategy though.

they're not depending on Ryanair revenues - my point was, if Ryanair are starting new routes from there when closing them down elsewhere, then there is clearly a demand for flights from Knock.

ninja900 wrote: »

So, how many more international airports does the west coast need? :rolleyes:

Far too often, 'regional development' is a synonym for highly dubious politically-inspired projects out west, while real demand and real need (and real returns on investment) elsewhere is neglected.

Knock is a regional, rather than an International Airport.

Just for the record - the people outside of the pale need Infrastructure too - and they shouldn't have to wait until Dubliners are satisfied with their own lot before the rest of the country can have whats needed.

ninja900 wrote: »

The Dublin area is by far the most successful area at developing, in spite of being starved of infrastructure. It's called economy of scale.

Starved of Infrastructure - interesting. You didn't notice the massive building going on in Dublin Airport, the huge tunnel dug from the Port towards same airport, the 2 Luas lines, additional train stations and considerable amounts of other infratructure down the docklands, a National Conference centre, a number of Motorways (all leading to and From Dublin), bypasses in Dundrum, etc etc etc?.

Starved of Infrastrure my ass - what needs to be done is a bit more joined up thinking about whats needed and how it's spent.

ninja900 wrote: »

Your case is to focus investment on where it will bring the least return, just so people in a particular area don't feel left out. This is nuts. Even if we weren't going through a massive budgetary crisis, it would still be nuts.

thats not my case at all, if you think so, you're sorely mistaken.
My case is to focus on where there is a need, and a benefit. Just letting the rest of the country hang on until we've polished the capital is equally as nuts, and hugely imbalanced, but it seems to be what you want.

ninja900 wrote: »

It's in accordance with the relative passenger numbers.

What I'm begrudging of is the years of delay of a vital piece of NATIONAL infrastructure and the hellish conditions hundreds of millions of passengers have had to endure during that time.

Well, its the process of centralisation that's caused Dublin to expand beyond it's own capabilities - something I'd hardly call a success. If we'd had a bit more balanced development over the years, where it would be quicker to travel from one side of the country to the other than it is to cross the Atlantic for example, then perhaps we'd all be happier and there would be a bit more balance.

Clearly that's not something that interests you however.

westtip · 22-10-2009 10:18pm

ninja900 wrote: »

Where did I say that ALL infrastructure in the west is provided ahead of demand? Nowhere. There are deficits of one kind or another all over the country. It's how we choose to prioritise the rectification of those deficits which is, too often, hijacked by political considerations.

Here

ninja900 wrote: »

The point, of course, which I point out again, is that facilities in the west are provided in advance of demand, in the east far behind demand

I never said anything about you saying ALL infrastructure is provided ahead of demand in the west; but your statement above was I think pretty clear - and I think pretty incorrect (for north south east and west - and the bit in the middle)

Hotblack Desiato · 23-10-2009 12:53am

Blackjack wrote: »

Please spare me the poor mouth. Dublin has been expanding for years - it's not the fault of the regions the planners in Dublin have no foresight.

It's not the planners, it's the government that refuses to fund adequate infrastructure for what is not a very large city.

yes, of course - lets make sure it's all nice and Shiny in Dublin - THEN we can spend the money elsewhere.

Never said that. But perhaps you can explain to me why Knock and Cork got new terminals before Dublin did? Was their need really more pressing?

In terms of all infrastructure, not just the airport :
Dublin is where the greatest need is - as in numbers of people affected.
It is where the greatest return on investment is (as in, what is built will be used and used to its capacity)
And like it or not - and it's pretty obvious you don't - it's where infrastructure produces the greatest return in terms of attracting foreign investment and jobs.

You can complain about that all you like but it won't change.

It doesn't matter whether I think that we need Airports in the west - it's whether there is a demand for their services - clearly, there is.

Was the new terminal essential, or nice to have? I'm guessing nice to have. Terminal 2 in Dublin is essential - and many many years late.

It's my tax money that pays for Stuff in Dublin too - just because you don't use the service, doesn't mean tax monies shouldn't be spent on them.

Here's where you're wrong. There is a HUGE net outflow of tax from Dublin to the regions. We in Dublin are not looking for gratitude, or even to reduce the flow, just that what goes to the regions is spent usefully not wasted, and that we can have our own needs looked after too.

Knock is a regional, rather than an International Airport.

It services destinations outside of the state, therefore it is an international airport. More to the point, it is in a different class from the (many - too many) regional airports.

Just for the record - the people outside of the pale need Infrastructure too - and they shouldn't have to wait until Dubliners are satisfied with their own lot before the rest of the country can have whats needed.

No, but neither should Dubliners watch as politicians fall over themselves to give regional lobbies what they want, often with no proof of a positive cost-benefit, while long-fingering projects in Dublin that would benefit millions of people per year and produce clear economic returns.

Starved of Infrastructure - interesting. You didn't notice the massive building going on in Dublin Airport, the huge tunnel dug from the Port towards same airport, the 2 Luas lines, additional train stations and considerable amounts of other infratructure down the docklands, a National Conference centre, a number of Motorways (all leading to and From Dublin), bypasses in Dundrum, etc etc etc?.

The motorways are there to link the regions to Dublin. Isn't that one of the things the regions were clamouring for - better links to Dublin? The Atlantic road corridor is needed too and should be built as soon as possible. Not all roads have to lead to Dublin...

ALL of the others are too little, and many years too late. Have you ever been in a similarly-sized continental European city and seen how a city can and should function? Cities do not have to be car-choked and dysfunctional. They don't have to have huge areas of social segregation and deprivation either.

Starved of Infrastrure my ass - what needs to be done is a bit more joined up thinking about whats needed and how it's spent.

Joined-up thinking would never have built Knock to divert traffic away from Shannon, or have built the WRC in preference to Navan rail.

Well, its the process of centralisation that's caused Dublin to expand beyond it's own capabilities - something I'd hardly call a success. If we'd had a bit more balanced development over the years, where it would be quicker to travel from one side of the country to the other than it is to cross the Atlantic for example, then perhaps we'd all be happier and there would be a bit more balance.

Clearly that's not something that interests you however.

Wrong. Good links between the cities are important. However the 'one for everyone in the audience' type attitude of many in the regions, as witnessed in the uproar over the short-lived National Spatial Strategy, was telling. You can't encourage development by spreading your resources all over the place, you have to concentrate on a limited number of centres and provide what's needed there.

Also, the west is its own worst enemy when it comes to planning - the epidemic of one-off housing makes achieving any economies of scale for infrastructural investment much more difficult.

Blackjack · 24-10-2009 12:21am

ninja900 wrote: »

It's not the planners, it's the government that refuses to fund adequate infrastructure for what is not a very large city.

again, the poor mouth bull**** - evidence this, perhaps you might have a case

ninja900 wrote: »

Never said that. But perhaps you can explain to me why Knock and Cork got new terminals before Dublin did? Was their need really more pressing?

smaller area, easier planning, lesser cost.

11 Million for Knock, nearly 400 Million for Dublin. Which do you think is easier to raise.

ninja900 wrote: »

In terms of all infrastructure, not just the airport :
Dublin is where the greatest need is - as in numbers of people affected.
It is where the greatest return on investment is (as in, what is built will be used and used to its capacity)
And like it or not - and it's pretty obvious you don't - it's where infrastructure produces the greatest return in terms of attracting foreign investment and jobs.

No, unfortunatley, Dublin is where the greater number of the population is. Regional development ensures a greater balance. If we continue along the daft notion of waiting for a nice and shiny capital, then all we get is a completely underpopulated area outside of Dublin with no Infrastructure, and a burgeoning Capital, then all we create is a lager Ghetto in the East than we already have.
You can complain about that all you like but it won't change either, unless something is done about it.
Foreign Investment and Jobs aren't going to exist anywhere Dubliners decide it's best that the rest of the world can only get there when the Bus Eireann timetable allows them to do so.

ninja900 wrote: »

Was the new terminal essential, or nice to have? I'm guessing nice to have. Terminal 2 in Dublin is essential - and many many years late.

you complain about Dublin having to wait until after the fact, and then suggest that the regions should do the same.
Nice.

ninja900 wrote: »

Was
Here's where you're wrong. There is a HUGE net outflow of tax from Dublin to the regions. We in Dublin are not looking for gratitude, or even to reduce the flow, just that what goes to the regions is spent usefully not wasted, and that we can have our own needs looked after too.

Of course, Dublin pays for everything, and again, the rest of the world are just wasting Tax money by having money spent outside of the Pale.

ninja900 wrote: »

It services destinations outside of the state, therefore it is an international airport. More to the point, it is in a different class from the (many - too many) regional airports.

If one were to fly from Donegal to Derry, would that make it an International flight?. Of course, there is too much Infrastructure outside of Dublin. Until there is a similar setup in Blackrock and Castleknock (already better serviced than most areas of the country) the rest should wait.

ninja900 wrote: »

No, but neither should Dubliners watch as politicians fall over themselves to give regional lobbies what they want, often with no proof of a positive cost-benefit, while long-fingering projects in Dublin that would benefit millions of people per year and produce clear economic returns.

Newsflash. Politicians get voted in in Dublin too. Honestly. Bertie Ahern was a TD for Dublin Central. He was actually a Taoiseach. Again, 11 million spent in Knock, 400 Million spent in Dublin.

ninja900 wrote: »

The motorways are there to link the regions to Dublin. Isn't that one of the things the regions were clamouring for - better links to Dublin? The Atlantic road corridor is needed too and should be built as soon as possible. Not all roads have to lead to Dublin...

finally, a point we can agree on

ninja900 wrote: »

ALL of the others are too little, and many years too late. Have you ever been in a similarly-sized continental European city and seen how a city can and should function? Cities do not have to be car-choked and dysfunctional. They don't have to have huge areas of social segregation and deprivation either.

I've been to several European and non-European Cities, and have seen how these should function. You do appear to be fine with areas outside of Dublin having the very social segregation and deprivation that you believe is not acceptable for Dublin. I wonder why this is.

ninja900 wrote: »

Joined-up thinking would never have built Knock to divert traffic away from Shannon, or have built the WRC in preference to Navan rail.

well, one is 100 miles away from the other. I'm not sure what you mean by diverting traffic, but I'm sure if you had to be inconvenienced by having to go somewhere 100 miles or more from where you wanted to be, you'd have plenty to say about it. In fact, I'd say you'd probable be on here, indicating how you believed it to be a travesty.

ninja900 wrote: »

Wrong. Good links between the cities are important. However the 'one for everyone in the audience' type attitude of many in the regions, as witnessed in the uproar over the short-lived National Spatial Strategy, was telling. You can't encourage development by spreading your resources all over the place, you have to concentrate on a limited number of centres and provide what's needed there.

Your suggestion is what - we just keep the good old "lets spend it all on the M50 until the Dublin Commuters are happy" isn't really a good enough strategy. I'm sorry, but there are both Taxpayers and voters who live outside of Dublin. This may come as a shock, but honestly, it's true.

ninja900 wrote: »

Also, the west is its own worst enemy when it comes to planning - the epidemic of one-off housing makes achieving any economies of scale for infrastructural investment much more difficult.

What has one off housing got to do with any of this? Do you even understand what one-off housing is????

Hotblack Desiato · 24-10-2009 10:00am

Blackjack wrote: »

again, the poor mouth bull**** - evidence this, perhaps you might have a case

OK then. How about the DART interconnector - planned in the 70s along with a DART line to Tallaght. Scrapped. Tallaght got a half-baked tram line 30 years too late. Bear in mind that Tallaght alone is larger than many cities on this island.

How about the theft of the EU grant money for the DART from CIE by the government in the early 80s - it went into the exchequer so CIE had to borrow to pay for the DART. For the next 20 years there was NO increase in capacity because they were still paying off this debt that they never should have had to bear in the first place. Even today the system can't meet demand, and there is huge unmet demand in areas where planned lines have not been built

The M50 was the same - built 20 years too late and obsolete before it was finished, requiring an expensive and disruptive upgrade programme to start almost as soon as it was completed. If it had been built on time we would have least have had 20 years benefit out of it before the upgrade was needed. As it was delayed so long, and due to serious f**k-ups by the local authorities, land needed for junctions was built on, so land acquisition became expensive or impossible, and consequently the design of the upgraded junctions is now compromised forever.

Now, you will no doubt say that it's ok for a million and a half people to be starved of infrastructure because towns of 5000 people out west are also... it's not - it has serious detrimental effects on the national economy - which is what the regions depend on to fund their infrastructure.

You want a bigger slice of a smaller pie. This mindset holds back not just the regions but the entire country. It refuses to see the bigger picture.

smaller area, easier planning, lesser cost.

So we should only do what is easy and cheap? That's what has the infrastructure of this nation in the state it's in.

Small projects are cheaper but the people served and economic benefits are smaller too. Rigorous cost-benefit analysis should be required for all projects but regional political considerations often trump everything else.

11 Million for Knock, nearly 400 Million for Dublin. Which do you think is easier to raise.

In a rational world it would be easier to justify the projects with national benefits and very positive cost-benefit.

No, unfortunatley, Dublin is where the greater number of the population is.

Why do you say unfortunately? What's wrong with people choosing to live in cities? This was a telling comment I think.

Regional development ensures a greater balance.

Proper regional development would - build what is needed when it is needed. No white elephants. No WRC-style tearing up the cost-benefit analysis when it doesn't add up. The WRC money would have been far better spent on roads. But there's an extensive thread on that already...

If we continue along the daft notion of waiting for a nice and shiny capital, then all we get is a completely underpopulated area outside of Dublin with no Infrastructure, and a burgeoning Capital, then all we create is a lager Ghetto in the East than we already have.

Again this is a very telling comment on your attitudes. Capital cities have economies of scale. If you prevent them from growing due to some atavistic DeValera notion of where 'real' Irish people should be living, you hold back the entire economy - and consequently reduce the funds available for regional development.

Ghetto? WTF??? Can you refrain from making insulting comments on city dwellers please.

Foreign Investment and Jobs aren't going to exist anywhere Dubliners decide it's best that the rest of the world can only get there when the Bus Eireann timetable allows them to do so.

True - but what's missing from your analysis is realism. Concentrating resources in the regions on the towns and projects which give most benefit economically - not just at election time

you complain about Dublin having to wait until after the fact, and then suggest that the regions should do the same.
Nice.

No, I'm saying there should be fairness. No 'build it and they will come' but projects with real, proven benefits.

Of course, Dublin pays for everything, and again, the rest of the world are just wasting Tax money by having money spent outside of the Pale.

Unfortunately too many of the projects demanded in the regions are half-baked and are wastes of money.

If one were to fly from Donegal to Derry, would that make it an International flight?

Are you trying to make some sort of nationalistic point???

Of course, there is too much Infrastructure outside of Dublin. Until there is a similar setup in Blackrock and Castleknock (already better serviced than most areas of the country) the rest should wait.

Infrastructure that is constructed on the 'field of dreams' principle is daft and we can't afford that sort of nonsense.

Newsflash. Politicians get voted in in Dublin too. Honestly. Bertie Ahern was a TD for Dublin Central. He was actually a Taoiseach. Again, 11 million spent in Knock, 400 Million spent in Dublin.

As I pointed out already that's in proportion to demand. So, per passenger, Knock is not being unfairly favoured in terms of money - fine. The problem is that Dublin has had to wait many years and this has had a detrimental effect on the whole country's economy not just the region.

Don't get me started on Bertie, please. Lots of BS like the Bertie Bowl but f-all on the ground, and now when we need to boost construction, we've no money to do it

Dublin people just don't vote the same way. And half of 'Dublin' TDs are not even from Dublin.

You do appear to be fine with areas outside of Dublin having the very social segregation and deprivation that you believe is not acceptable for Dublin. I wonder why this is.

You seem to think that people should have the same services on their doorstep for no extra cost no matter where they choose to live. That doesn't happen in a single country in the world, never mind a region with a population as dispersed as the west of Ireland

well, one is 100 miles away from the other. I'm not sure what you mean by diverting traffic, but I'm sure if you had to be inconvenienced by having to go somewhere 100 miles or more from where you wanted to be, you'd have plenty to say about it.

Picking an arbitrary number X and then saying that nobody should have to live more than X miles away from an international airport is no way to make major infrastructural decisions.

It was obvious that Knock would capture some traffic which would otherwise use Shannon (otherwise wtf is the point of Knock??) Shannon is now in dire financial straits and the US military (whom the west love to hate) is the only thing keeping it open! How ironic.

Your suggestion is what - we just keep the good old "lets spend it all on the M50 until the Dublin Commuters are happy" isn't really a good enough strategy. I'm sorry, but there are both Taxpayers and voters who live outside of Dublin. This may come as a shock, but honestly, it's true.

Perhaps if you could read what was written not what you want to see...

What has one off housing got to do with any of this? Do you even understand what one-off housing is????

It's got EVERYTHING to do with the provision of infrastructure in rural areas. If you can't see that, there is little point trying to discuss the issue rationally rather than emotionally.

G_R · 24-10-2009 3:28pm

ninja900 wrote: »

OK then. How about the DART interconnector - planned in the 70s along with a DART line to Tallaght. Scrapped. Tallaght got a half-baked tram line 30 years too late. Bear in mind that Tallaght alone is larger than many cities on this island.

How about the theft of the EU grant money for the DART from CIE by the government in the early 80s - it went into the exchequer so CIE had to borrow to pay for the DART. For the next 20 years there was NO increase in capacity because they were still paying off this debt that they never should have had to bear in the first place. Even today the system can't meet demand, and there is huge unmet demand in areas where planned lines have not been built

The M50 was the same - built 20 years too late and obsolete before it was finished, requiring an expensive and disruptive upgrade programme to start almost as soon as it was completed. If it had been built on time we would have least have had 20 years benefit out of it before the upgrade was needed. As it was delayed so long, and due to serious f**k-ups by the local authorities, land needed for junctions was built on, so land acquisition became expensive or impossible, and consequently the design of the upgraded junctions is now compromised forever.

Now, you will no doubt say that it's ok for a million and a half people to be starved of infrastructure because towns of 5000 people out west are also... it's not - it has serious detrimental effects on the national economy - which is what the regions depend on to fund their infrastructure.

You want a bigger slice of a smaller pie. This mindset holds back not just the regions but the entire country. It refuses to see the bigger picture.

So we should only do what is easy and cheap? That's what has the infrastructure of this nation in the state it's in.

Small projects are cheaper but the people served and economic benefits are smaller too. Rigorous cost-benefit analysis should be required for all projects but regional political considerations often trump everything else.

In a rational world it would be easier to justify the projects with national benefits and very positive cost-benefit.

Why do you say unfortunately? What's wrong with people choosing to live in cities? This was a telling comment I think.

Proper regional development would - build what is needed when it is needed. No white elephants. No WRC-style tearing up the cost-benefit analysis when it doesn't add up. The WRC money would have been far better spent on roads. But there's an extensive thread on that already...

Again this is a very telling comment on your attitudes. Capital cities have economies of scale. If you prevent them from growing due to some atavistic DeValera notion of where 'real' Irish people should be living, you hold back the entire economy - and consequently reduce the funds available for regional development.

Ghetto? WTF??? Can you refrain from making insulting comments on city dwellers please.

True - but what's missing from your analysis is realism. Concentrating resources in the regions on the towns and projects which give most benefit economically - not just at election time

No, I'm saying there should be fairness. No 'build it and they will come' but projects with real, proven benefits.

Unfortunately too many of the projects demanded in the regions are half-baked and are wastes of money.

Are you trying to make some sort of nationalistic point???

Infrastructure that is constructed on the 'field of dreams' principle is daft and we can't afford that sort of nonsense.

As I pointed out already that's in proportion to demand. So, per passenger, Knock is not being unfairly favoured in terms of money - fine. The problem is that Dublin has had to wait many years and this has had a detrimental effect on the whole country's economy not just the region.

Don't get me started on Bertie, please. Lots of BS like the Bertie Bowl but f-all on the ground, and now when we need to boost construction, we've no money to do it

Dublin people just don't vote the same way. And half of 'Dublin' TDs are not even from Dublin.

You seem to think that people should have the same services on their doorstep for no extra cost no matter where they choose to live. That doesn't happen in a single country in the world, never mind a region with a population as dispersed as the west of Ireland

Picking an arbitrary number X and then saying that nobody should have to live more than X miles away from an international airport is no way to make major infrastructural decisions.

It was obvious that Knock would capture some traffic which would otherwise use Shannon (otherwise wtf is the point of Knock??) Shannon is now in dire financial straits and the US military (whom the west love to hate) is the only thing keeping it open! How ironic.

Perhaps if you could read what was written not what you want to see...

It's got EVERYTHING to do with the provision of infrastructure in rural areas. If you can't see that, there is little point trying to discuss the issue rationally rather than emotionally.

+1, Brilliant Post

D'Peoples Voice · 25-10-2009 10:21pm

Yeah, it's seems impossible to follow ninja900's post,
so I won't even try.

I do think that we should not turn this into a West vs East argument,
I for one welcome Knock's investment, because any improvement's in facilities in Ireland should be encouraged.
That said, I do have to say that if you ask a foreigner to look at the following map, and if you asked them where the greatest density of population lies, would they guess correctly

What percentage of the country's population is accounted for by the population of Leinster again???
There will never be balanced development in Ireland, because unlike in the East, where Leinster feed Dublin as the capital city,
In Munster they split investment between Limerick and Cork,
in Connaught they split investment between Galway, Castlebar, Ballina, Sligo, the list goes on.
But as ninja900 said, does anyone in Munster question why investment is going to Shannon when Cork is the main city in Munster,
why investment is going to Knock when Galway is the main city in Connaught.
This is why sadly these regions will be forever in the doldrums!

dermo88 · 26-10-2009 12:23am

I just laugh at these "West vs East" arguments. The muppets from the West of Ireland come out of the sinkholes of the Burren, with minds as blank as light from the Ailwee caves. I laughed at them when I was a 9 year old kid, and watched Monsignor Horan obtain funds for Knock Airport, thinking he was mad (Knocks real role is military BTW). I laugh at them with the lobbying for the Western Rail Corridor. I laugh at their peasant reject bog trotter politicians such as Beverly Cooper Flynn and its egomaniac Father. I laugh at the fact that Ireland will willingly export its brightest and best while taking the illegitimate rejects of Cuba and making them a corrupt dynasty.

Robert Kilroy Silk called us a land of peasants, priests and pixies. Seeing the likes of Padraig Flynn on the Late Late. Seeing us vote in the likes of Haughey and singing "arise and follow Charlie". Seeing only the minor functionaries in corruption go to jail, one seriously has to wonder.

Did that xenophobic, racist remark have some basis in reality?

And ......when you look at the West of Ireland and its conduct, its begging bowl, its beal bocht, you have to say ....resoundingly.

Yes!

cson · 27-10-2009 1:18am

To be honest what Dublin needed was for that 400 million to be spent developing a secondary international airport to the west of the county - develop Westin for example. One needs only look at the other major cities of Europe to see most have at least 2 airports within an hours travel. London has STN, LGW, LCY and LHR, Paris with CDG and Beavais, Brussels and Charleroi etc

Of course thanks to the myriad of planning and regulations aided by a terminal short term outlook affliction in this country it will never happen.

G_R · 27-10-2009 1:26am

according to wiki, population of:

London:7,556,900
Paris: 10,142,983
.
.
.
Dublin: 1,045,769

Massive Difference

Victor · 27-10-2009 2:43am

cson wrote: »

To be honest what Dublin needed was for that 400 million to be spent developing a secondary international airport to the west of the county - develop Westin for example. One needs only look at the other major cities of Europe to see most have at least 2 airports within an hours travel. London has STN, LGW, LCY and LHR, Paris with CDG and Beavais, Brussels and Charleroi etc

No, until an airport starts reaching its practical limitiations at about 40m-60m passengers per year, each location should only have one airport. If you flew from, say Donegal to Dublin, would you want to cross the city to get your connecting flight to Rome or Boston?

serfboard · 27-10-2009 5:13pm

dermo88 wrote: »

Knocks real role is military BTW

That's interesting. How do you know this?

Aidan1 · 27-10-2009 5:53pm

Before we go any further with the conspiracy theories around Knock, lets just point out that it doesn't, in fact, have a worryingly long runway. The main one in Shannon is considerably longer.

On the Regional Development debate - this one will run and run and Ninja900 has covered the main issues, but one major consideration that has yet to be raised is that of economies of scale, and critical mass of population and services to industry. Cities have been the focal points of real economic growth in Ireland over the last 40 years, and Dublin far more so than any other for the obvious reason that it has arrived at a point where it is internationally competitive. That fact alone explains why it (and Cork) make a net contribution to the exchequer, and all other regions don't (Limerick may have in 2006, but I would be very surprised if it does now).

In terms of where policy should go - the simple fact of the matter is that in a small country, it is difficult to see how we will ever have more than 2 or 3 cities of sufficient size to have sufficient (internal and external) economies of scale to ever compete internationally. Certainly, pretending to develop 8 or 12county towns as growth poles is a waste of time, because (a) none of them will ever actually succeed, and (b) you'll only bleed the Golden Goose (Dublin) dry of the infrastructure spend it needs to keep generating the wealth needed to keep the rest of the country going. The obvious solution, as far back as the Buchanan Report in 1968, was to focus infrastructure and development in a small number of Urban regions, and to develop alternative policies for everywhere outside those city regions. Given that Cork is bigger than Limerick and Galway put together, and already has economies of scale in certain sectors, it's a given that it would be included.

Limerick was Dr Buchanans other suggestion, but given the manner in which Galway has grown in the last 30 years, it would be churlish to exclude it now. So there you have it - a simple pattern for Regional Development - focus growth on 4 of the 5 cities in the state, and develop other objectives for those other regions. In terms of airports, well, SNN can serve both Galway and Limerick easily, Cork's airport better not need any work for the next 25 years for what it cost, and Dublin Airport will have plenty of capacity (and the infrastructure it needs if Metro is built) for the foreseeable future. Job done.

JupiterKid · 28-10-2009 12:23am

Aidan1 wrote: »

Before we go any further with the conspiracy theories around Knock, lets just point out that it doesn't, in fact, have a worryingly long runway. The main one in Shannon is considerably longer.

On the Regional Development debate - this one will run and run and Ninja900 has covered the main issues, but one major consideration that has yet to be raised is that of economies of scale, and critical mass of population and services to industry. Cities have been the focal points of real economic growth in Ireland over the last 40 years, and Dublin far more so than any other for the obvious reason that it has arrived at a point where it is internationally competitive. That fact alone explains why it (and Cork) make a net contribution to the exchequer, and all other regions don't (Limerick may have in 2006, but I would be very surprised if it does now).

In terms of where policy should go - the simple fact of the matter is that in a small country, it is difficult to see how we will ever have more than 2 or 3 cities of sufficient size to have sufficient (internal and external) economies of scale to ever compete internationally. Certainly, pretending to develop 8 or 12county towns as growth poles is a waste of time, because (a) none of them will ever actually succeed, and (b) you'll only bleed the Golden Goose (Dublin) dry of the infrastructure spend it needs to keep generating the wealth needed to keep the rest of the country going. The obvious solution, as far back as the Buchanan Report in 1968, was to focus infrastructure and development in a small number of Urban regions, and to develop alternative policies for everywhere outside those city regions. Given that Cork is bigger than Limerick and Galway put together, and already has economies of scale in certain sectors, it's a given that it would be included.

Limerick was Dr Buchanans other suggestion, but given the manner in which Galway has grown in the last 30 years, it would be churlish to exclude it now. So there you have it - a simple pattern for Regional Development - focus growth on 4 of the 5 cities in the state, and develop other objectives for those other regions. In terms of airports, well, SNN can serve both Galway and Limerick easily, Cork's airport better not need any work for the next 25 years for what it cost, and Dublin Airport will have plenty of capacity (and the infrastructure it needs if Metro is built) for the foreseeable future. Job done.

Good post. Completely agree with that. Ireland needs to develop areas which can compete internationally and scattered one off houses in the West will hardly do that.

I'm frankly sick and tired of hearing the shrill screams of the gombeen rural lobby that have held this country back for far, far too long.

blackbetty69 · 28-10-2009 12:28am

Bond-007 wrote: »

Does Knock still have the cash tax that must be paid upon checkin?

Yeah u hae to pay a tenner 'development fee' or sumthing like that.. do they do that in any othr airport or is it just knock?

G_R · 28-10-2009 12:34am

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

jesus christ, i knew that development was not equal throughout the state but thats a fucking joke. 3 airports (Galway, Sligo and Knock) to serve an area that has a population less half of Dublin City, that is ridiculous.

I know its not popular to say this but its developments like this, that have no real potential to be anything big, that really hold this country down. Galway, Sligo, Knock and Shannon could just as easily have been replaced with one airport, near Galway, and then the money could be better spent on building proper road links to the area. The same can be said for Kerry Cork and Waterford. One in Cork will do just fine.

If Ireland is to succeed, we need to move away from this colloquial thinking and start doing things properly.

Blackjack · 28-10-2009 3:39pm

ninja900 wrote: »

OK then. How about the DART interconnector - planned in the 70s along with a DART line to Tallaght. Scrapped. Tallaght got a half-baked tram line 30 years too late. Bear in mind that Tallaght alone is larger than many cities on this island.

How about the theft of the EU grant money for the DART from CIE by the government in the early 80s - it went into the exchequer so CIE had to borrow to pay for the DART. For the next 20 years there was NO increase in capacity because they were still paying off this debt that they never should have had to bear in the first place. Even today the system can't meet demand, and there is huge unmet demand in areas where planned lines have not been built

The M50 was the same - built 20 years too late and obsolete before it was finished, requiring an expensive and disruptive upgrade programme to start almost as soon as it was completed. If it had been built on time we would have least have had 20 years benefit out of it before the upgrade was needed. As it was delayed so long, and due to serious f**k-ups by the local authorities, land needed for junctions was built on, so land acquisition became expensive or impossible, and consequently the design of the upgraded junctions is now compromised forever.

Now, you will no doubt say that it's ok for a million and a half people to be starved of infrastructure because towns of 5000 people out west are also... it's not - it has serious detrimental effects on the national economy - which is what the regions depend on to fund their infrastructure.

You want a bigger slice of a smaller pie. This mindset holds back not just the regions but the entire country. It refuses to see the bigger picture.

are you suggesting that the regions got all the cash earmarked for these delayed projects, or that it was perhaps a case the funds were not there for them in the first place?.

ninja900 wrote: »

So we should only do what is easy and cheap? That's what has the infrastructure of this nation in the state it's in.

No, you aked me to explain to you why Knock and Cork got new terminals before Dublin did. I answered. Do you think its easier and quicker to build a 3000 square meter terminal in Knock, or to build something that has that size alone in Retail space beside an Dublin Airport?.

ninja900 wrote: »

Small projects are cheaper but the people served and economic benefits are smaller too. Rigorous cost-benefit analysis should be required for all projects but regional political considerations often trump everything else.

ninja900 wrote: »

In a rational world it would be easier to justify the projects with national benefits and very positive cost-benefit.

remarkably, if it benefits the regions, it benefits the Nation too.

ninja900 wrote: »

Why do you say unfortunately? What's wrong with people choosing to live in cities? This was a telling comment I think.

Nothing other than we have a massive population imbalance, with the lack of regional infrastructure and centralisation of services meaning that more will congregate towards the Capital. A more regional focus would mean that equal services could be provided to other Cities.

ninja900 wrote: »

Proper regional development would - build what is needed when it is needed. No white elephants. No WRC-style tearing up the cost-benefit analysis when it doesn't add up. The WRC money would have been far better spent on roads. But there's an extensive thread on that already...

I don't agree with WRC - the Atlantic corridor should have been developed a long time ago, but is only being talked about now.

ninja900 wrote: »

Again this is a very telling comment on your attitudes. Capital cities have economies of scale. If you prevent them from growing due to some atavistic DeValera notion of where 'real' Irish people should be living, you hold back the entire economy - and consequently reduce the funds available for regional development.

Ghetto? WTF??? Can you refrain from making insulting comments on city dwellers please.

you seriously have a chip on your shoulder about Dublin my friend. If it's any consolation, I've lived in Dublin most of my life, I'm just able to see beyond it.

ninja900 wrote: »

True - but what's missing from your analysis is realism. Concentrating resources in the regions on the towns and projects which give most benefit economically - not just at election time

Are you saying that an Airport provides no benefit to a region Economically?.

ninja900 wrote: »

No, I'm saying there should be fairness. No 'build it and they will come' but projects with real, proven benefits.

Are you suggesting there is no benefit to the Region of having Knock airport?.

ninja900 wrote: »

Unfortunately too many of the projects demanded in the regions are half-baked and are wastes of money.

Knock Airport is hardly half baked. Your post is very telling of what you feel people outside of Dublin deserve mind.

ninja900 wrote: »

Are you trying to make some sort of nationalistic point???

Derry is outside of the state, but I appreciate others may take a different view. Would another example of Donegal to Glasgow make Donegal an International Airport, for example?.

ninja900 wrote: »

Infrastructure that is constructed on the 'field of dreams' principle is daft and we can't afford that sort of nonsense.

Again, you are hung up on this point that it's not worth anything to anyone. Just because you don't use it yourself, doesn't mean it's not useful to others.

ninja900 wrote: »

As I pointed out already that's in proportion to demand. So, per passenger, Knock is not being unfairly favoured in terms of money - fine. The problem is that Dublin has had to wait many years and this has had a detrimental effect on the whole country's economy not just the region.

Dublin has been expanding hugely over the years - Pier D has been developed hugely and opened earlier this year. Knock got planning permission for it's Terminal expansion in early 2008 - it's now build. Terminal 2 for Dublin got it's planning permission in August of 2006 - it's only currently being build.

I'm not suggesting that Dublin Airport doesn't need what it's getting, it's just the attitude that seems to pervade that the rest of the country should wait until Dublin has it's lot is absurd.

ninja900 wrote: »

Don't get me started on Bertie, please. Lots of BS like the Bertie Bowl but f-all on the ground, and now when we need to boost construction, we've no money to do it

Dublin people just don't vote the same way. And half of 'Dublin' TDs are not even from Dublin.

But Dublin has representation, doesn't it?.

ninja900 wrote: »

You seem to think that people should have the same services on their doorstep for no extra cost no matter where they choose to live. That doesn't happen in a single country in the world, never mind a region with a population as dispersed as the west of Ireland

No, I don't.
Perhaps if you could read what was written not what you want to see.

ninja900 wrote: »

Picking an arbitrary number X and then saying that nobody should have to live more than X miles away from an international airport is no way to make major infrastructural decisions.

It was obvious that Knock would capture some traffic which would otherwise use Shannon (otherwise wtf is the point of Knock??) Shannon is now in dire financial straits and the US military (whom the west love to hate) is the only thing keeping it open! How ironic.

Again, you're reading something you want to read, rather than what was written. You suggested traffic was being diverted to Knock from Shannon. I disagree - passengers from areas all over the western region use knock, similarly passengers from areas all over the Mid west use Shannon. It's quicker to go to Dublin from Sligo thant it is from Sligo to Shannon.
There are very few competing routes when you compare the 2 Airports. Shannon is in Dire financial straits because of the lack of transatlantic traffic, and open skies. Shannon needs to do something about that, and make itself more attractive as a stopover point. e.g. If BA continue with their plans for their London City to JFK.

ninja900 wrote: »

It's got EVERYTHING to do with the provision of infrastructure in rural areas. If you can't see that, there is little point trying to discuss the issue rationally rather than emotionally.

I don't think anyone will be looking to build a house beside Knock Airport.

westtip · 28-10-2009 11:58pm

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

!

DPV I think your map is brilliant, however, if the number of flights and destinations per airport was shown proportionally the strategic importance of Dublin Airport would be more apparent. I have said it before the likes of Knock, Galway etc are purely regional airports providing domestic flight services - yes I am calling UK flights "domestic"; essentially this is how they function.

Personally I think the better plan would have been about ten years ago to do a "munich" on Dublin Airport - build an entirely new airport on a greenfield site, somewhere around Enfield would have been ideal - an existing rail line sits there (Sligo line) and the new M4 was coming by; when the airport and fast train connections where in place (double track the Maynooth line to Enfield - and electrify it to the Airport and have a 15 minute train service into Connolly), Open the Athlone - Mullingar line to run direct trains to the new Dublin Airport from the west.

When this was all in place simply close down the old airport and use the much needed land the airport sat on in the north side for housing - would have prevented a lot of suburban spread of north dublin beyond the airport, and opened up a huge tract of land for much needed housing at the time.

Munich closed down its old airport overnight back in the early 90s and simply opened the new one the next day - much better planning than messing around with old infrastructure. Please do read the story of this immense piece of planning here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Airport it is truly a fascinating story of what is possible

Of course this is fantasy thinking - it is however the kind of fantasy thinking needed by Governments to Govern rather than pandering to parish pump politics. If this kind of plan had been implemented the need for regional airports in the likes of Galway, Knock and Sligo would have been a lot less, and probably two of them could have been closed.

Of course the politicians of north county Dublin and the politicians of the west would not have considered such an idea as suitable for their own little republics - herein lies the problem. Its not East v West or West v East but its "my patch versus your patch" which rules our "strategic" thinking, one only has to look at the shenanigans that go on in each county that "gets a minister" - what is best for the whole country; unfortunately is lost on our rather dim parochial politicians.

dowlingm · 29-10-2009 3:28pm

From Knock Airport to Sligo is 46km as the crow flies, 54km by road according to Google Earth.

After the Euroceltic crash, SXL should have been closed with the money saved on capital upkeep and current expense put towards improving the rail service and providing a fast shuttle to NOC via an upgraded N17. Whatever NOC's faults it doesn't have an estuary at the end of the runway.

westtip · 29-10-2009 4:15pm

dowlingm I live within equal driving distance of both Knock and Sligo airports and never really use the latter - Sligo Airport is a complete waste of time and should have been closed down - but if it were suggested around here you would get the usual PPP response (and I am not talking public private partneships BTW but parish pump politics!) SLX really is not needed especially with the improvements at NOC

[Article] New Knock Airport terminal opens

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