Objecting to planning

sillysocks

Just wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction....
The people in the house behind us have just put in for retention planning permission on something which we really need to object to.

We have never done anything like this before so want to make sure its done properly so I'm wondering if an architect is the best person to contact to do up the objections for us?

Also, what could I roughly expect to pay for someone to do that? The building is a stand alone structure in the garden of an existing house.

Thanks!

RKQ

PM sent:)

Poor Uncle Tom

Any observation/objection must be made within 5 weeks of a valid application being made. You can make an observation/objection yourselves without the help of an agent in letter format with accompanying documentation, photos, etc. This will cost you €20.00 to make the observation/objection.

If you need professional help at this stage it will normally cost you whatever time is involved by the Architect/AT/Engineer/Solicitor.

gizmo555

sillysocks wrote: »

Just wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction....
The people in the house behind us have just put in for retention planning permission on something which we really need to object to.

We have never done anything like this before so want to make sure its done properly so I'm wondering if an architect is the best person to contact to do up the objections for us?

Just bear in mind that any objection, if it's to be successful, must be on valid planning grounds. I have seen objections on planning files in the past where a whole lot of extraneous detail which really had nothing to do with planning was included. I could imagine the planning official's eyes totally glazing over before getting to the valid reasons for objection (if any).

From that perspective, if it's really important to you, it would probably be best to employ a professional who understands planning to make a succinct and well-argued case for you on good planning grounds.

sillysocks

gizmo555 wrote: »

Just bear in mind that any objection, if it's to be successful, must be on valid planning grounds. I have seen objections on planning files in the past where a whole lot of extraneous detail which really had nothing to do with planning was included. I could imagine the planning official's eyes totally glazing over before getting to the valid reasons for objection (if any).

This is the main reason we were thinking of getting someone to do it for us. I don't know enough about planning rules to know what the legit planning grounds are in this case as opposed to the building just being a pain in the neck for us.

Poor Uncle Tom

Making an objection/observation to a planning application has two main effects;

i) the planning officers are aware that a neighbour has concerns regarding the development,
ii) if planning permission is granted by the LA the objector can proceed to appeal that decision to An Bord Pleanala.

Making an observation/objection to a planning application will not alter the council's decision making process or in fact the ultimate decision of the council to the planning application, imo.

The time to get all your ducks in line and fully argue your case against a development is for the appeal, if planning is granted, where you will usually get just one chance to argue your case, this is where the professionals are needed, imo.

gizmo555

I should first of all preface ths by saying I'm not a construction professional and my experience of the planning systems is pretty limited.

I can say, though, that within that experience I have definitely known instances where local authority planners either refused permission or granted it with conditions citing reasons which appeared to take account of objections. Of course, it's impossible to say for sure whether they would have arrived at the same conclusion whether or not the objections had been submitted - they don't preface the reasons given by saying "Taking into account Mr J Blogg's submission . . ."

However, I think there's an inherent contradiction in saying an objection means "the planning officers are aware that a neighbour has concerns regarding the development" and "making an observation/objection to a planning application will not alter the council's decision making process or in fact the ultimate decision of the council to the planning application".

If the local authority is invariably going to disregard objections, what's the point of making them, apart from the fact that you must in order to have the right to appeal any decision to An Bord Pleanála? Anyway, if you have made a well argued objection on good planning grounds which the local authority has disregarded, surely that could only strengthen your case in an appeal?

Poor Uncle Tom

gizmo555 wrote: »

...I can say, though, that within that experience I have definitely known instances where local authority planners either refused permission or granted it with conditions citing reasons which appeared to take account of objections. Of course, it's impossible to say for sure whether they would have arrived at the same conclusion whether or not the objections had been submitted...

I think you may find that the reasons used in observations/objections in these cases are usually the reasons the LA's use to determine an application.

gizmo555 wrote: »

...I think there's an inherent contradiction in saying an objection means "the planning officers are aware that a neighbour has concerns regarding the development" and "making an observation/objection to a planning application will not alter the council's decision making process or in fact the ultimate decision of the council to the planning application".

The first statement is saying that having an observation/objection on the file lets the planner know someone has concerns regarding the development.
The second statement is saying that the planners usually have a list of guidelines and rules, from the Planning & Development Act to the Local Development Plan, to guide them to make a decision on an application and unless an observation/objection unearths something new which was not considered by the planners, then their decision is unlikely to be changed by the observation/objection.

gizmo555 wrote: »

...If the local authority is invariably going to disregard objections, what's the point of making them, apart from the fact that you must in order to have the right to appeal any decision to An Bord Pleanála? Anyway, if you have made a well argued objection on good planning grounds which the local authority has disregarded, surely that could only strengthen your case in an appeal?

Yes, if you do manage to unearth something from the Development Plan, Planning and Development Act, Local Precident, etc., that the planners have missed then this will help you.

I started writing this at 10.30am, but was called away by an inspector for An Bord Pleanala, to open a site he is doing an appeal's report on....:D

gizmo555

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

The first statement is saying that having an observation/objection on the file lets the planner know someone has concerns regarding the development.
The second statement is saying that the planners usually have a list of guidelines and rules, from the Planning & Development Act to the Local Development Plan, to guide them to make a decision on an application and unless an observation/objection unearths something new which was not considered by the planners, then their decision is unlikely to be changed by the observation/objection.

Do you think that having an objection on file is likely to make the local authority planners more diligent in applying guidelines and rules? If there are submissions or objections on file, then as you say there is the possibility of a 3rd party appeal to An Bord Pleanála, where their decision might be reversed. In your experience, would this make them more careful to ensure everything is by the book?

Poor Uncle Tom

I think you'll agree that everything should be by the book regardless of whether there is an observation on file or not. It is my experience that things have changed in planning departments and there is now more accountability then ever before for bad planning judgements.

I'm not saying they don't happen, I'm saying they happen less often. I would say the answer to your question gizmo555 would be yes if asked five years ago, but I would say no for today, this is my experience working with planners in the South East anyway.

gizmo555

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

I think you'll agree that everything should be by the book regardless of whether there is an observation on file or not. It is my experience that things have changed in planning departments and there is now more accountability then ever before for bad planning judgements.

I do agree that that's how it should be, but the reality is in almost a third of appeals, the local authority's decision is reversed (as per the most recent Bord Pleanála annual report). In other words, in the board's professional opinion the LAs did not go correctly by the book.

That seems a very high proportion to me as a self-employed business consultant - if I messed up every third job I did, I wouldn't stay in business very long! And, of course, the board's report only covers decisions which were appealed to it. It would seem fair to assume that at least as high a proportion of decisions which are not appealed are dubious.

stephentbb2000

Would it be out of the water to approach your neighbour with your concerns first and try and find a resolution. I have had first hand experience with these scenarios with dealing with neighbours and the council.

Not trying to deter you but if your reason for logging an observation/objection is lets say niggly, it may severe relations.

On the other hand like the previously reported treads mentioned, expert advice goes along way and will only strengthen your case when dealing with LA.

Poor Uncle Tom

stephentbb2000 wrote: »

Would it be out of the water to approach your neighbour with your concerns first and try and find a resolution. I have had first hand experience with these scenarios with dealing with neighbours and the council.

Not trying to deter you but if your reason for logging an observation/objection is lets say niggly, it may severe relations.

On the other hand like the previously reported treads mentioned, expert advice goes along way and will only strengthen your case when dealing with LA.

Since the poster mentioned in the opening post that this relates to retention planning permission, I think it is the offender should be coming 'cap in hand' to the neighbours, not the other way around.

sillysocks

Thanks all for the advice.....
We are going to get a copy of what he has sent to the planning dept and go from there.

Would it be out of the water to approach your neighbour with your concerns first and try and find a resolution. I have had first hand experience with these scenarios with dealing with neighbours and the council.

Not trying to deter you but if your reason for logging an observation/objection is lets say niggly, it may severe relations.

We've never actually met this guy - he lives at the back of our house and the way the estate is laid out our paths never cross even in the car on the way in/out. At the moment he has built the structure as far as waterproofing (has been sitting covered in red plastic sheeting to keep it weatherproof since February when this all started) and I'm pretty sure us talking to him will not get him to remove it.

Our main issue is how close it is to the boundary wall (from standing on the ground I can touch the gutters of it) and also the size of it. We were told by estate agents who came to view our house that it would prevent buyers from considering our property which is a big issue obviously.

We'll see how we get on, not too hopeful - as I say this is going on since Feb and nothing has happened as yet. At least if he does get the permission though it will get finished and won't look quite as bad as it does now covered in plastic.

Poor Uncle Tom

gizmo555 wrote: »

I do agree that that's how it should be, but the reality is in almost a third of appeals, the local authority's decision is reversed (as per the most recent Bord Pleanála annual report). In other words, in the board's professional opinion the LAs did not go correctly by the book.

Do we have a figure for the number of appeals where the Board has ignored or overturned the recommendation of it's own inspectors. I have noticed that this figure is also very high.

gizmo555 wrote: »

That seems a very high proportion to me as a self-employed business consultant - if I messed up every third job I did, I wouldn't stay in business very long! And, of course, the board's report only covers decisions which were appealed to it. It would seem fair to assume that at least as high a proportion of decisions which are not appealed are dubious.

It could also be argued that even though the LA's knew there was an objection on the files they went ahead and decided the planning application on their own criteria, thus differing from An Bord.

My only problem with An Bord Pleanala is that it is made up of a cross-sectional board of people who jointly think they know what is best for a county/region/area through the embodiment of the spirit of a development plan better then the people who devised that development plan to start with.

gizmo555

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Do we have a figure for the number of appeals where the Board has ignored or overturned the recommendation of it's own inspectors. I have noticed that this figure is also very high.

It's all there in the board's own annual report:

Inspectors’ Reports and Recommendations
In 2007, the number of formal decisions made with
Inspectors’ reports were 4,611. The number of Inspectors’
recommendations not generally accepted by the Board was
603 (13.1%) compared to 554 (13.6%) in 2006.


http://www.pleanala.ie/publications/2008/annualreport2007.pdf

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

It could also be argued that even though the LA's knew there was an objection on the files they went ahead and decided the planning application on their own criteria, thus differing from An Bord.

Maybe I'm being simplistic, but I thought the local authorities and the board were meant to be applying the same laws, regulations and guidelines. It seems odd that they differ so much. In fact, the proportion of decisions reversed on 3rd party appeal is even greater than the overall average, at 37%.

Poor Uncle Tom

In an ideal world there would be an answer to every planning question in every Development Plan and no need for the Board at all.

Inconsistencies in decision making is a big problem, whether it is from planning officer to planning officer or between LA and An Bord Pleanala.

I think we've strayed far enough off topic, I'll leave the last word to you in another post if you wish, after that all posts back on topic please...:)