Navy scuttles new plan for cheaper, faster patrol boats

Steyr

Sunday October 11 2009

PROPOSALS to equip the Naval Service with up to 20 smaller, faster and cheaper patrol boats to cover the entire coastline, with a new shipbuilding industry to supply them and create jobs, have been rejected by the Department of Defence.

Under the submission to Defence Minister Willie O'Dea by the Euro Marine company, offshore P1-65 patrol boats could be supplied at a cost of €5m each, and 10 could be bought for the cost of one offshore patrol vessel (OPV).

The department, which is engaged in a €200m ship replacement programme for Ireland's eight-ship navy, and intends to buy two OPV ships for around €100m if it gets Cabinet approval, rejected the plan saying essentially that the boats are too small and were unsuitable.

Yesterday Clare-based businessman Bill Rigby refuted the department's arguments and said in his opinion most of the Irish coastline is unprotected. He said his boats are designed to operate in bluewater sea conditions and in shallow water where 62 metre boats being procured by the Naval Service cannot operate.

"It is beyond our belief that two or three larger boats can be effective, as emergent activities develop, the time of response by these larger, slow-moving ships is less than acceptable as they are rarely in the vicinity unless by chance," he said.

"It is disappointing that we did not have the opportunity to meet with the Irish Navy personnel who know ship construction and design," he wrote to the minister.

Under his proposals he claimed his boats, with a top speed of over 40 knots, armed with two 25mm Bushmaster cannons with armoured crew spaces, would have a range of 1,500 miles, would be more efficient than the larger ships proposed and reduce overall costs.

He envisaged an initial plan of investing in three boats at a cost of €15m-€18m, "which will give three-times the coastal coverage of one €100m ship".

However, the department told Mr Rigby that his ships were essentially for inshore work and would be unsuitable. It said: "The present requirements for the Naval Service are for Offshore Patrol Vessels that can conduct 42-day patrols with up to 70 per cent of that time spent at sea in the harsh North Atlantic conditions.

"As the weather and wave heights experienced in the north-west Atlantic are predicted to worsen over the next 30 years, the Naval Service require larger rather than smaller vessels at this time."

- DON LAVERY

Sunday Independent

minidazzler

It definitely makes more sense to have smaller faster more coastguard type boats.

But the Dept wouldn't be to smart on this.

it would also give all the naval officers actual jobs on ship. Given there is an over abundant amount of them.

concussion

How well can they stand sea-conditions off the West Coast? How long can they stay out there? To have good coastal coverage from these boats would mean more NS bases - how much would that cost?

odin_ie

Not being an export in anything naval, I do know that we need bigger ships in the coming years for Offshore Patrol, something that has been shown by the tender for new OPV's that is on going.

However, I do believe that there is a place for a number of smaller patrol boats between 30 and 50 meters that can operate up to 150-200 NMs. A fast patrol boat like the Norwegian Skjold Class(47.5m and up to 60 knots) would give the NS a fast craft that can operate closer to land.

The cocaine seizure in November 2008 happened 200 miles off the South West Coast. That was one seizure, and a huge one. How many more go un noticed? I believe that if the NS, or even the Coast Guard/Customs had a few more vessels in the 30-50m catagory that were capable of patrols, there would be a hell of a lot less drug shipments making it into Ireland. The other question is if drugs are making it in via unprotected sea, what else is getting in.

Finally, can I ask, would people think that the Coast Guard should be allowed to fill this role and leave the NS to work further out?

mikeym

minidazzler wrote: »

It definitely makes more sense to have smaller faster more coastguard type boats.

But the Dept wouldn't be to smart on this.

it would also give all the naval officers actual jobs on ship. Given there is an over abundant amount of them.

It would make more sense to replace the emer first since that 5 mini patrol boats wont be able to carry out the navys primary function which is fisherys protection.

The navy wouldnt have the manpower anyway because of the recruiting freeze.

petergfiffin

...offshore P1-65 patrol boats could be supplied at a cost of €5m each, and 10 could be bought for the cost of one offshore patrol vessel (OPV).

So my my reckoning they would need a crew of 4 to be more cost efficient to run, before you even get near putting fuel or food into it.

... in shallow water where 62 metre boats being procured by the Naval Service cannot operate.

Just how close to the shore does he want to get? Maybe they should be fitted with wheels? Once you get very close to the shore you're always better off sending in seariders, granted the CPVs were the first "rock dodgers" but that was more down to their draught than size.

"It is beyond our belief that two or three larger boats can be effective, as emergent activities develop, the time of response by these larger, slow-moving ships is less than acceptable as they are rarely in the vicinity unless by chance," he said.

and what will these smaller boats do if they're arriving at the scene of a vessel on fire or a towing situation? How long can they stay "on-station", not a lot of point getting there quickly unless you're actually going to be able to do something when you get there. Fact is most of the time NS ships are called on are dirty, wet, stormy nights when you want something a bit "beefy"

"It is disappointing that we did not have the opportunity to meet with the Irish Navy personnel who know ship construction and design," he wrote to the minister.

I think I can guess why!:rolleyes:

Under his proposals he claimed his boats, with a top speed of over 40 knots, armed with two 25mm Bushmaster cannons with armoured crew spaces, would have a range of 1,500 miles, would be more efficient than the larger ships proposed and reduce overall costs.

No way you're going to do 40 knots off the Irish coast unless you're under the water, over it, or you fancy wearing your kidneys as earrings, all you'll end up with is a broken ship and a broken crew. I would say max you're going to do on anything less than the size of a destroyer is about 20. At what speed does he hope to get a range of 1,500 miles?

He envisaged an initial plan of investing in three boats at a cost of €15m-€18m, "which will give three-times the coastal coverage of one €100m ship".

...and then he woke up

goldie fish

Right, so once we have the coastline covered, what do we do about the bits 200 miles out into the atlantic?

My sencere belief is that this guy was high when he made the offer.

concussion

That article really pi$$es me off - DoD rejects plans?? Makes it sound like a valid proposal was put forward and then thrown out, when in fact some boat-builder wanted a contract for a tender which doesn't exist and isn't needed.

Alkers

Anyone got a link with details of the boats he had in mind?

Tabnabs

From reading it, it sounds like the Archer class patrol vessel used by the RN -

IMHO, the idea has some merit in that a fleet of smaller class of vessel could be useful as obviously larger ships cannot be in two places at one. But I would look to the size of the Hauk class MTB previously used by the Norwegian Navy (a country with a huge shoreline and extensive territorial waters)



But for long patrols, the current Irish fleet is pretty much outdated and in need of a radical rethink. To my mind we are following our old imperial masters too much and should look to the other North Atlantic countries. The Norwegian and Icelandic navies are about to purchase a new class of offshore patrol vessels;


The Barentshav class of offshore patrol vessels will consist of three vessels powered by liquefied natural gas (a 90% decrease in NOx fume releases, and a 20% decrease in CO2 releases compared to a conventionally powered vessel of similar size, even the Green's would be happy ) their main tasks will be EEZ patrol, fishery inspection, search and rescue as well as tug readiness along the shore of Norway which is seeing increasing traffic from tankers.

In Iceland

Its main tasks will be EEZ patrol, fishery inspection and search and rescue support.

We are a partner nation in the European Maritime Safety Agency but have no vessels ready for use in such operations. Our military activities are limited and to my mind we need to expand our naval capabilities into SAR and salvage as our neighbours are.

concussion

Simona1986 wrote: »

Anyone got a link with details of the boats he had in mind?

http://www.euromarineltdpatrolboats.com/euromarineltd/%22ALL-WEATHER%22.html

Very reminiscint of this -



Hope DoD fobbed him off with 'We're gonna need a bigger boat' :P

petergfiffin

Just looked at the pics of the boats that guy is proposing....he DEFINITELY needs to be drug tested!!! They're basically fishing day-boats and are almost exactly 1/4 the size of the new OPVs!!!

The fact that other countries use MTB type craft or other small patrol craft doesn't really transfer to Ireland as they are intended to used within a larger fleet as fast attack craft in a war, not as general purpose patrol craft.

The whole thing about needing fast boats for drugs interdiction is a bit of a red herring. The last major drugs haul is probably typical of the way most naval drug interdictions take place where you receive a piece of intelligence in advance which allows you to position yourself, you then spend a few days monitoring them from a distnace before finally deciding whether to actually board the vessel or let it continue for the Guards to track what lands (all of which was in the papers in case people think I'm disclosing sensitive info). If you do decide to board them then the best thing is just to use seariders which aren't going to be picked up by radar. If it's a case that you only get a few hours notice I reckon you're much better off just taking two armed AB139s, loading them up with Rangers and doing it from the air. The whole thing that having more boats increases your chance of being in the right place at the right time is total BS, Ireland has 32,000 Sq miles to cover, even with 100 ships you're still covering a big area.

I agree with many of the posters, along with the current fleet what Ireland needs is one or two big (armed) ocean going tug type craft where you can land (but not necessarily hanger) a heli and can be used as platforms for large SAR operations, I do like the Icelandic ship although it looks a little high so I reckon you could expect a lot of roll!!

Alkers

Jaysus that website is some load of rubbish. The boats have hardly any accomodation, you wouldn't want to stay out for more than a few days on one!

Drummerboy08

The Archer class doesnt really look too much bigger than the Arun class lifeboat that the RNLI use. Surely it would be useless if this is the case?

As someone already said, it would only allow the crew to be at sea for days!

Fratton Fred

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

The Archer class doesnt really look too much bigger than the Arun class lifeboat that the RNLI use. Surely it would be useless if this is the case?

As someone already said, it would only allow the crew to be at sea for days!

The RN use the Archer Class in three main places, Universities, Cyprus and Gibralter. I would be surprised if they ever spend a night out at sea TBH.

that sort of boat could have its uses I guess but aren't they similar to the new fleet the revenue boys have just got?

Fratton Fred

I didn't see the link to euro Marine originally. it looks to me as though mr Rigby has got a wreck fishing boat and stuck a gun on the front.

Fail I believe is the correct boards terminology:D