The future looks hopeful :)

tootyflutty

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/its-a-deal-1910064.html

THE Greens last night won a guarantee there will be no college fees in return for staying in power with Fianna Fail for the next two-and-ahalf years.

Yes registration, student levee's and taxes will probably increase, ( :rolleyes: ) but at least we know it will not be anywhere near as high as full fees *fingers crossed anyway*

Thwip!

tootyflutty wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/its-a-deal-1910064.html

THE Greens last night won a guarantee there will be no college fees in return for staying in power with Fianna Fail for the next two-and-ahalf years.

Yes registration, student levee's and taxes will probably increase, ( :rolleyes: ) but at least we know it will not be anywhere near as high as full fees *fingers crossed anyway*

*crosses fingers and toes*

Effluo

Lousy vote grabbin greens!!!

Seriously though they were some clever tactics....

LeixlipRed

Finally the Greens win back some of the respect they'd lost over the last year and a bit. Eamonn Ryan is still a slimey **** though. This was all Gogarty's doing.

PrivateEye

This is a small victory, and everyone in the student movement (be they USI, SUs, or rank n' file activists) should claim this one, I've no doubt the sustained campaign on mulitple fronts played a part in all this.

The Greens are still going to have their fingerprints all over Government attacks on working people, the cutbacks will continue, and this is just the start. A victory under the belt is a nice thing to have. Ask your Departments in Maynooth about cutbacks though, or read recent IFUT (our lecturers union) press releases and its obvious there are still major problems in education.

If they want to introduce cutbacks, or hammer us in the budget, students will respond. I'm chuffed with this, but will wait for the budget and word of any other cutbacks before saying too much. At this moment in time I think its v.important we don't let our guard down.

---

as for FEE, which people have been asking me all day, meeting up with DIT,UCD,TCD etc. to discuss the way forward. I expect more cutbacks/a higher reg fee etc. so wrapping up is a terrible idea.

Effluo

I'm not so sure this is the greatest thing in the world...

If we're not gonna pay for our education then surely it'll suffer more due to greater cutbacks!

PrivateEye

Never fear, because the Greens have also gone and got Water Tax reintroduced by the look of the Programme :rolleyes:

(...because that was so popular in Dublin last time around and all that)

mickstupp

Firstly, I'm still never voting for the Greens. They had a chance (as I understand it) to kill the government majority. We could've had FF out of there. I don't know it all works though so maybe I'm wrong on that.

PrivateEye wrote:

I've no doubt the sustained campaign on mulitple fronts played a part in all this.

I, for one, have complete doubt on that subject. I don't believe O'Keeffe was ever going to listen to anyone protesting. The government does not care what normal people say. They don't listen. I genuinely think the only reason they gave in, and probably over his loud objections, was to keep a majority in the Dail. I don't think it's got anything to do with students marching or writing letters or emails, and I think it's got zip to do with wrecking his head with phone calls. If I was him, after having my head wrecked last week with students spamming my phone, I'd be inclined to say F*ck Yiz All! Going from protesting to harassment is no way to get people on your side. But then again... I don't think he was ever going to listen so it doesn't really matter. FF only listened to the Greens to save their own seats. And I think the Greens would've garnered more respect for themselves, and probably guaranteed their re-election and then some, by refusing to support FF full stop. But that's just my opinion.

PrivateEye wrote:

If they want to introduce cutbacks, or hammer us in the budget, students will respond.

And I don't think it'll make any difference. Not with Fianna Fail in power. They're the problem. I know the other parties are as useless, but they might listen, FF won't.

Effluo wrote:

I'm not so sure this is the greatest thing in the world...

If we're not gonna pay for our education then surely it'll suffer more due to greater cutbacks!

I'm inclined to agree.

MTAR

Yup we will all be screwed in some form or another with heavier tax's.. And the whole "college fee's" thing never effected me or anyone else who started college in 08 or before so was never too bothered anyway (yup im an ass)

Was told yesterdat by a wise old person "The only people who dont want college fee's are people about to go to college or their parents, everyone else doesnt want to pay higher tax's just so wasters say they are in college and drink 24/7, so bring on fee's"

pisslips

With the possibility of sounding like a big bear chewing on a wasp.

Slash public sector wages, have means tested fees in 3rd level education, while also create some administration to deal with 'special cases' where people can appeal,i.e. if they are economically independant from their parents and can prove it.

So long as people have enough money to pay rent, eat, work and enjoy a hobby or two, while still having incentive to improve themselves.....well thats all anyone needs.

We get payed more and taxed less than lots of other eurozone countries, I don't understand these people who are striking. The cost of living is coming down or at least stagnating. THe problem is you cannot put the onus on ordinary people to make their own major investments, i.e. pensions and houses....and for them to account for the implicit risks involved in a speculation driven market.
So they depend on professional advisor who also turn out ,(SURPRISINGLY!!) not to have the customers interests at heart.

I feel in 50 years that we'll all be assigned government housing or something, they'll just have to take responsibility away from the individual. Kind of a scarey scenario though like '1984' or something.Except free media, thats pretty important.

Effluo

pisslips wrote: »

Slash public sector wages, have means tested fees in 3rd level education, while also create some administration to deal with 'special cases' where people can appeal,i.e. if they are economically independant from their parents and can prove it.

Free education was introduced because people couldn't pay the fees, times have changed big time! People who can afford to pay fee's should have to.

Not to mention that the way that the grant system works needs to be reformed. I know loads of guys who struggle to pay their way through, who need to get loans out and who have to get jobs even if they interfere with their studies!

I also know some guys who get €200+ a week from mammy and daddy, but hold on? They also get the full maintenance grant too?!!! The method of means testing is so stupid in this country. Literally multi-millionaire's kids are getting full maintenance grants...
Fair play to them, i'm not spiteful, but it shouldn't happen!

Astrogeek

The means testing for the grant is a joke. I know a handful of people who could really do with it, like people who don't even have a spare fiver at the end of the week and then one or two people who did get the full grant, decide to spend it all on useless rubbish, or drop out half way through and still get the full thing. It makes no sense to me...

PrivateEye

Got a few emails from local papers today, so chucked this out.

FREE EDUCATION FOR EVERYONE, NUI MAYNOOTH today welcomed the concessions won by the Green Party in relation to education, but encouraged students to continue the campaign against education cutbacks and remain cautious of this governments policies in relation to education. The Green Party have voted with Fianna Fail on education cuts in the past at primary and secondary level, and there is no reason to think they will not do so again in future. The decision of the Green Party rank and file to vote in favour of NAMA for instance shows a willingness to go against public feeling and to side with the Fianna Fail party if their own seats at the high table of government in Ireland are at risk.

In recent years, we have seen the registration fee rise year after year, hitting the ridiculous sum of €1,500 this year. Meanwhile, our universities are currently struggling as a result of massive cutbacks. Many tutorials have been scrapped, student services are being slashed, and education workers are working under insane levels of stress. The government saying "there will be no fees" to us, while a small victory, does not offer any guarantees in relation to the registration fee, or further cutbacks.

Last year, we attended protests called by teachers unions at primary and secondary level to show the importance of solidarity between primary,secondary and third level students and education workers. Just because we're not facing a 5 or 6 thousand Euro tab next September, does not mean our fight is won. The need for a grassroots campaign across all levels of Irish education remains. We offer full support and solidarity to the various education workers unions, not least the IFUT and SIPTU unions, which many lecturers in NUI Maynooth belong to.

We reaffirm our opposition to the appointment of Bertie Ahern T.D by the NUI Maynooth School of Business and Law. At a time education is under attack, this decision makes a mockery of not just us as students- but our families who face unfair levies (not least the dubious Pension Levy imposed on the Public Sector), our lecturers who are struggling against cutbacks, and all workers on campus, from those working on minimum wage to those working in administration. To allow a Fianna Fail T.D, who has spent less than ten days in Dáil Éireann since 'stepping down' as Taoiseach to lecture in an Irish University, and be wined and dined by the University as he no doubt will be, is quite frankly lunacy.

In relation to issues like NAMA, and An Bord Snip Nua, we remain in complete opposition to this government. In fact, IFUTs statement in relation to An Bord Snip Nua that "This report, and, in particular, the parts of it which relate to education, will come to be regarded as one of the most short-sighted documents in Irish education history" is one we would second.

Lastly, we must condemn the presence of some student organisations outside the Royal Dublin Society in Ballsbridge in calling for the Greens to 'Vote Yes' and stay in government as a result of the guarantees in relation to fees. We feel closer aligned to the striking Coca Cola workers with Siptu who encouraged delegates to 'Vote No', to the activists from Communities Against Cuts who are facing the realities of Fianna Fail/Green government on a daily basis, and to the education workers unions who have rightly called this terrible government out in the past.

Fees or no fees, education is still under attack. Thank you to the lecturers of our university who offered support, to local people who encouraged us, and to the students of NUI Maynooth who got involved in the campaign. That campaign must not fold, but rather- grow.

We are more than willing to work with trade unions in the area, and education workers and parents at all levels of Irish education.

W Carney
Free Education for Everyone NUI Maynooth
feemaynooth@gmail.com

****STATEMENT ENDS****
Image:
Free Education for Everyone sitdown outside Dail Éireann
http://i36.tinypic.com/2qwjvwl.jpg

PrivateEye

I actually have a serious hatred for The Green Party that can result in not alone avoiding recycling, but doing my bit to 'counter' anything John Gormley thinks is a good idea. Green Bin, black bin, they're all bins amirite?

No Dad, give us a lift out to college, thats one more car on the road and all that :pac:

Beau

PrivateEye wrote: »

We reaffirm our opposition to the appointment of Bertie Ahern T.D by the NUI Maynooth School of Business and Law.

I generally disagree with everything you stand for politically, apart from this. I'd love to know what added 'value' (the departments favorite phrase) he will bring and how much work he will actually do. Seeing him on the Late Late Show waffle on and do his whole 'innocent me' act infuriates me.

On the fees thing, has there been any mention of reform? Big step back in my opinion, would've like to have at lease seen O'Keefes proposals or the greens offer an alternative to the current situation.

irish_goat

Beau wrote: »

I generally disagree with everything you stand for politically, apart from this. I'd love to know what added 'value' (the departments favorite phrase) he will bring and how much work he will actually do.

I'm not his biggest fan by any stretch but you can't deny that in terms of people with knowledge of law and business in Ireland, Bertie is up there at the top.

PrivateEye

I wonder if the Student Union will come out against his appointment this year? There was some backroom protesting done by lecturers recently going right up to the top, but I think the SU have stayed quiet? Curious is all.

The man is so dubious its unbelievable. The Ray Burke school of politics got us into this mess, pity we'll never get to see Ahern in the Burkemobile

PrivateEye

Anyone taking any of these when Bertie arrives?

FN191: AN INTRODUCTION TO HORSE RACIN'
- Professor Bertie Ahern

EC179: MANAGIN' WITHOUT A BLEEDIN' BANK ACCOUNT
- Professor Bertie Ahern

MH112: A HISTORICAL SURVEY: FIANNA FAIL IN DRUMCONDRA, 1985-2008
-Sargent Richard O' Brien of the Criminal Assets Bureau

Beau

irish_goat wrote: »

I'm not his biggest fan by any stretch but you can't deny that in terms of people with knowledge of law and business in Ireland, Bertie is up there at the top.

Yeh maybe you're right and I'll admit to being very cynical about the appointment (As PE says, 'dubious') and that my opinion is probably clouded by my distaste for him, what he stands for and his party rather than a huge amount of facts or knowledge about the job. I would've had a relatively close relationship to the head of the department last year when I was in college, I wish I took the opportunity to ask him about it at the time.

PrivateEye

Ah Hurr Durr.

princess_calico

MTAR wrote: »

Was told yesterdat by a wise old person "The only people who dont want college fee's are people about to go to college or their parents, everyone else doesnt want to pay higher tax's just so wasters say they are in college and drink 24/7, so bring on fee's"

I have to completely disagree with that...... ALTHOUGH there are a fair share of wasters- I've seen waaaaaaaaay too many... I am struggling to get by in college, I am not entitled to a grant (due to a failed business in my parent's past (the other person in the business stole EVERYTHING and left my parents with the loans etc), although my dad's income is too high to be elligible for a grant, due to crippling debts, we have always struggled to get by)

Over the summer I was working 50 hours a week to try and raise enough to pay for accommodation, but I also needed to take out a loan for €2500... I worked my ass off for the leaving cert so I got over 500 points and will be getting €1000 from the college... But still, last week I had €7 to get me through the week. The €1000 was hopefully going to go to my next rent payment in January (€1824) but I just found out I won't get half of it until February... after the rent is due...


So although to most people, college fees might seem like a necessary evil, if they were to come back, I for one couldn't continue in college... I know there are so many people in the same situation that I'm in so there's no way they could cope either. Delaying the college fees are the best move the government has ever made

Effluo

princess_calico wrote: »

I am struggling to get by in college, I am not entitled to a grant, my dad's income is too high to be elligible for a grant, crippling debts due to a failed business in my parent's past. We have always struggled to get by

Over the summer I was working 50 hours a week to try and raise enough to pay for accommodation, but I also needed to take out a loan for €2500... I worked my ass off for the leaving cert so I got over 500 points and will be getting €1000 from the college... But still, last week I had €7 to get me through the week. The €1000 was hopefully going to go to my next rent payment in January (€1824) but I just found out I won't get half of it until February... after the rent is due...

And that's exactly why the whole system needs to change!
But can i also just say how the gov were going to bring in the fees...

You wouldn't have to pay fees until after you had ceased to be in college anymore and you wouldn't have to pay back anything until after your salary had gone over a certain point(deemed to be where you could afford it)!
If anything this system might be even beneficial to people like calico in the short-term + even long-term.
If we were to get fee's then the crazy "registration" charges would almost certainly go down(by a lot). That would mean no 1k+ lump sum at the start of every year! Now how helpful would that be to all the people struggling to pay their way through?

That kind of system is a heck of a lot more fair than the one we have today... At least the people who are not getting a grant, don't have to pay ridiculous fee's at the start of every year!
We do not get free education! Free is not 1,100+ a year, not including books and so forth. The College fees yes was going to increase the fees, but it would have restructured them better too

princess_calico

Effluo wrote: »

And that's exactly why the whole system needs to change!
But can i also just say how the gov were going to bring in the fees...

You wouldn't have to pay fees until after you had ceased to be in college anymore and you wouldn't have to pay back anything until after your salary had gone over a certain point(deemed to be where you could afford it)!
If anything this system might be even beneficial to people like calico in the short-term + even long-term.
If we were to get fee's then the crazy "registration" charges would almost certainly go down(by a lot). That would mean no 1k+ lump sum at the start of every year! Now how helpful would that be to all the people struggling to pay their way through?

That kind of system is a heck of a lot more fair than the one we have today... At least the people who are not getting a grant, don't have to pay ridiculous fee's at the start of every year!
We do not get free education! Free is not 1,100+ a year, not including books and so forth. The College fees yes was going to increase the fees, but it would have restructured them better too

You have got a point there about paying them after your income has gone over a certain amount...


however... when i heard about the college fees, i was extremely pis*ed and wrote a very angry, but formal letter to the minister for education basically saying telling my family's story, then letting him know how i got on in my LC, how i had worked my ass off all my life and then i wasnt gonna be able to afford 2nd year college cos the means testing only takes into account income and not expenditure/ debts etc and there is no individual test... i got an brief, standard, one-letter-fits-all reply from his secretary basically saying that everything had been considered and that all circumstances would be taken into account....


MY ASS!!!

if there was a little symbol thing for a middle finger i would so be giving it right now.... I am generally a very calm, polite person... but the current government can suck my metaphorical balls

banquo

princess_calico wrote: »

I have to completely disagree with that...... ALTHOUGH there are a fair share of wasters- I've seen waaaaaaaaay too many... I am struggling to get by in college, I am not entitled to a grant (due to a failed business in my parent's past (the other person in the business stole EVERYTHING and left my parents with the loans etc), although my dad's income is too high to be elligible for a grant, due to crippling debts, we have always struggled to get by)

Over the summer I was working 50 hours a week to try and raise enough to pay for accommodation, but I also needed to take out a loan for €2500... I worked my ass off for the leaving cert so I got over 500 points and will be getting €1000 from the college... But still, last week I had €7 to get me through the week. The €1000 was hopefully going to go to my next rent payment in January (€1824) but I just found out I won't get half of it until February... after the rent is due...

I could totally one-up that in terms of hardship, but I don't want to diminish what is obviously a struggle

PrivateEye

While I obviously disagree with the main argument being made here, I think its an interesting read and was more than worthy of debate.

Its just one students opinions, and in fairness to him he's put them together very well.

Third level fees should be re-introduced.

I was a member of FEE (free education for everyone) until very recently and I'm not against them, but I do disagree with them to a certain extent. It is certainly a tricky situation because the re-introduction of fees for the rich and not the poor, lies in trust. I dont 'trust' Fianna Fail but this is our government and you deserve the government you vote for. I strongly believe that fees should be introduced for the rich. When the students marched on wednesday the only people who were really happy were the wealthy.

More students from Dublin's disadvantaged areas are proceeding to third level, including myself, but their numbers remain relatively low according to the higher education authority (HEA). The study also finds that that the number of 17-19 year-olds in Dublin going on to third level is the second-lowest among the 26 counties. Only 45% of Dublin school-leavers proceed to college, compared to over 75% in Leitrim.

Awkward questions need to be asked and this is not happening! Isn't there something dysfunctional about a society where there are such vast extremes of poverty and wealth? And shouldn't this be the prime focus of the left-wing parties? The whole point of left-wing politics is to identify inequalities. But our political left, including Eamon Gilmore, speak in generalities about inequality but avoid how inequality is to be addressed comprehensively.

I believe our top statutory taxes (high earners) need to be dramatically hiked (considering we pay lower taxes than Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Finland, Belgium, Denmark, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Austria & Slovenia) and it is no coincidence the top countries on that list have the lowest child poverty rate and some of the best standards of living in the world. With our unbelievable excess in wealth, why is our country so dysfunctional? It may have something to do with the fact the left is so fragmented, and it could have something to do with our political parties playing the, 'I'll have lower taxes than them' game.

My point is, Our taxes should be slightly increased in general, and the rich should have to pay back what they took from society, through high taxes and the re-introduction of fees for the rich third level students who will have no problem paying. This is not a comprehensive report but I do think people need the relevant information before a campaign is launched. The youth in Ireland need to be radicalized, and we need solid facts and a good argument.

THIS IS THE RATES OF ADMISSION BY POSTAL DISTRICT FOR DUBLIN'S 17-19 YEAR OLDS:
D14.............79%
D18.............73%
D6...............71%
D3...............61%
D16.............61%
D4, D15......49%
D9................47%
D5, D13......39%
D24.............36%
D12..............32%
D8................29%
D2, D7.........28%
D11..............27%
D1................20%
D22..............19%
D20..............16%
D17..............12%
D10..............10%

I hope this begins a REAL debate on the fee issue, we need to stand together and stop the government from walking all over us. The last thing we need to do is try to stop the government from finally taking money back from the wealthy in Ireland. Moreover, medical cards should NOT be available to all. Plenty of millionaires, and the wealthy in general should have to pay. (We also pay through taxes, the building of private hospitals and pay private doctors, where is the argument to change this?)

I am open to alternative suggestions but, as it stands, i firmly believe the solution to our problems lies in the organisation of the young and radical, as well as workers and students etc. We need to resist the government threatening nature and rise up to show our government we will not be used as scapegoats... this is the real issue. Fighting fees, in my opinion, is a waste of time.

Effluo

If nothing else the gov should facilitate better for their crappy system.

If they were to offer some kind of incentives to banks to be more open for student loans like they do in other countries, at least then there could never be a financial factor when someone is deciding to go to college or not. Also I feel sorry for Calico because not having money and having to be conservative all the time sucks when your young, Now is the only time we can be young(for obvious reasons) and that is important too...(i think i'm trying to justify the crazy amount of money i just spent on UV paint and glittery such and such for the japanese popstars )

The only problem i have with student loans is that they are not as easy to get as they should be!

StarshipTrooper

Agh I'm so sick of this country and all those rich people.

The notion that the government should even entertain the idea that us fit and healthy adults should be forced to pay for our own education and betterment!

Effluo

StarshipTrooper wrote: »

Agh I'm so sick of this country and all those rich people.

The notion that the government should even entertain the idea that us fit and healthy adults should be forced to pay for our own education and betterment!

Oh yeah because the government owe us...

I don't mean to generalise but that's the exact attitude that we don't need right now. It's the same attitude that have got the French where their social system is today.(which btw is a disgrace!)

PrivateEye

Oh yeah because the government owe us...

Just a bit,yep.

The people elected them into positions of power, and in the past so many figures (Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern, Beverly Flynn, Liam Lawlor, Charlie Haughey, John O' Donoghue.....and a few 'blues' too like Michael Lowery,Liam Cosgrave Jnr, and even a Green or two, anyone see Gormleys expenses?) have abused the power given to them by the people and just run a muck. When you look at the ridicolous wage-slips these people take home, be they in government or opposition, and the massive payments their 'circle of friends' recieve (the likes of Dr.Drumm, or the FAS business...) for them to suggest a family potentially already being hammered by the pension levy for example should spend €5,000+ to send a child to university is an absolute joke.

The government owe the people, because the people are the reason they can live the lifestyles they do, take home the payslips they do, and live the lavish lives they do.

The people however, at the minute, owe this government very little.


---

As for the French, they just have a riot fetish

StarshipTrooper

Effluo wrote: »

Oh yeah because the government owe us...

I think you may have misunderstood me friend.

Seriously though - I'd like to see cheap loans paid back when you are earning the big bucks like the system them across the water/border have.

Too little money going into universities, too many students treating university as some sort of right of passage.

I just don't see why somebody, struggling to make ends meet should be footing the bill for another adult to drunkenly sleep through a film studies lecture.