The 'virus' is spreading.

Turtwig

Linky

Hehe, I just hope this Bishop isn't being over paranoid or exaggerating.
Dawkins,Harris and Hitchens look like they are making an impact.

*Evil Laugh*


Nah, people have just become more confident and comfortable with their position.
It wasn't really until I'd heard of Dawkin's book, that I stepped out into limelight, until then only my closest friends had 'sorta' known.

Dades

A high ranking holy man describes atheist groups as self-righteous?

Indeed.

Flamed Diving

The Cardinal agreed with Allen’s suggestion that that the atheism of Dawkins and Harris was “highly evangelical”:

“Yes it is, sure. Everybody has said that, and it’s true. It’s the mirror image of a kind of fundamentalism, because it’s very restrictive in its use of reason. It’s also very triumphalistic and self-righteous.”

What? Are they being unreasonable because they don't believe in your fairy tale?

Boo hoo...

The Mad Hatter

“In Chicago, we now have atheist clubs in high schools. We didn’t have those five years ago. Kids I would have confirmed in the eighth grade, by the time they’re sophomores in high school say they’re atheists."

Is it just me, or is he implying that sophomore kids are too young to be proclaiming their atheism? Two years after they've proclaimed their Catholicism?

Also, that newspaper reeks.

robindch

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Also, that newspaper reeks.

Modern usage has drifted a bit, but strictly speaking, a newspaper can really only "reek" if it's burning:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=reek

...which isn't a bad thing to do to the Telegraph.

Continuez...

Goduznt Xzst

I mean isn't this a win win situation though? They get ammunition to fuel their signs of the coming Apocalypse, and we get some fresh converts to donate their babies to our Darwinial Feasts and Celebrations.

While I don't agree with a movement becoming fanatical, I can't help feeling that when I'm watching on the news, a decade from now, gangs of Atheists firebombing churches I won't really be all that surprised.

The Mad Hatter

robindch wrote: »

Modern usage has drifted a bit, but strictly speaking, a newspaper can really only "reek" if it's burning:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=reek

...which isn't a bad thing to do to the Telegraph.

Continuez...

Did not know that.

Still, from the same page:

"Sense of "stench" is attested 1659", so I think I'm ok.

The Mad Hatter

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I mean isn't this a win win situation though? They get ammunition to fuel their signs of the coming Apocalypse, and we get some fresh converts to donate their babies to our Darwinial Feasts and Celebrations.

In fairness, Catholics don't tend to be as slap-happy cheerful about the end of the world as certain other sects.

Dades

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

In fairness, Catholics don't tend to be as slap-happy cheerful about the end of the world as certain other sects.

That's because they know they're all worthless sinners*.

* Not a crack at catholics - just the sense of worth instilled by their church!

5uspect

Damian Thompson wrote:

He, and the whole of the American Church, must be praying that the certainty of unbelief wears off as the “new atheists” have children and face the prospect of mortality.

At least the Author acknowledges that Religion is a mere scare tactic.

Zillah

Did a Bishop seriously just announce that he does not like being restricted by reason? That's awesome.

robindch

Zillah wrote: »

Did a Bishop seriously just announce that he does not like being restricted by reason? That's awesome.

That's faith.

A bit like playing tennis without a net, as somebody observed earlier this week:

http://www.naturalism.org/Morelandreview.htm

Zillah

wrote:

They don’t just stop going to church, they make a statement. I think that’s new. That’s perhaps a bit more like Europe.

*steeples fingers*

"Goooood, good...."

Aside from the occassional moment of idiocy (presenting morality as though it were some well known hurdle for atheism, or calling it a "belief system"), I found that article highly enjoyable. I would like to read more from how religious leaders are despairing at their loss of control.

This is in fact one of the most satisfying articles I've read in weeks. You go American youth! Show them who's boss.

dragonsgates

robindch wrote: »

That's faith.

A bit like playing tennis without a net, as somebody observed earlier this week:

http://www.naturalism.org/Morelandreview.htm

A bit like playing tennis without a ball.


Hopefully within my lifetime we will see religion sent to room 101.

5uspect

I thought you meant House.

philologos

This is really no more ridiculous than Richard Dawkins saying that religion is a virus. Ridiculous alright, but no more ridiculous.

Zillah

Jakkass wrote: »

This is really no more ridiculous than Richard Dawkins saying that religion is a virus. Ridiculous alright, but no more ridiculous.

Are you familiar with memetics? Or are you dismissing it without really understanding it?

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

This is really no more ridiculous than Richard Dawkins saying that religion is a virus.

Lots of other things are like viruses in the same way that religion is like virus: humour, music, architecture, design and so on. Many view it as the ultimate whatevere-ye're-havin-yerself cultural phenomenon since it has no epistemological rules except what it provides itself with, no meaning other than what it says about itself, and most importantly, no end other than itself.

Here's Dawkins on religion-as-virus:

http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/Dawkins/viruses-of-the-mind.html

...which, I hope, you'll find interesting.

5uspect

Zillah wrote: »

Are you familiar with memetics? Or are you dismissing it without really understanding it?

Pretty much, last time I brought it up he just threw some random quote from wikipedia at me.

philologos

I believe the quote I gave was that memetics is regarded as a pseudoscience by many.

The bishop referring to atheism was a virus, is no less valid than Richard Dawkins referring to religion as a virus. It is highly hypocritical to argue otherwise. I knew the mere comparison would get people pleading Dawkins' case.

5uspect

You pretty much rephrased the first sentence of this section to me in this post.

Flamed Diving

However, it seems the Atheism strain of the virus does not mutate into countless sub-divisions, nor does it kill the host or lead its host to kill others, in its name.

philologos

As for atheism not leading people to kill others, that is debatable.

5uspect

I don't doubt that Atheism can also spread like a virus and become dogmatic.

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

As for atheism not leading people to kill others, that is debatable.

Moustaches, too.

:rolleyes:

philologos

It is funny (as in perculiar, not laughable) how people wish to claim that religion has caused mass death while conveniently excluding what happened in the 20th century.

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

It is funny (as in perculiar, not laughable) how people wish to claim that religion has caused mass death while conveniently excluding what happened in the 20th century.

It's laughable considering how myopic people can be when it comes to historical analysis.

Hitler = Stalin = Atheism = Dead Jews = EVIL!!!!

lolz

I pity people who think in such simplistic terms. I really do.

Flamed Diving

Atheism, the root of all evil...

Flamed Diving

Atheist Ireland, meeting for a conference on O'Connell Street.

Flamed Diving

A quote from God is Not Great:

Pope Pius XII, who succeeded to the office
after the death of his former superior in February 1939. Four days
after his election by the College of Cardinals, His Holiness composed
the following letter to Berlin:

To the Illustrious Herr Adolf Hitler, Fuhrer and Chancellor of
the German Reich! Here at the beginning of Our Pontificate
We wish to assure you that We remain devoted to the spiritual
welfare of the German people entrusted to your leadership....
During the many years We spent in Germany, We did all in Our
power to establish harmonious relations between Church and
State. Now that the responsibilities of Our pastoral function have
increased Our opportunities, how much more ardently do We
pray to reach that goal. May the prosperity of the German people
and their progress in every domain come, with God's help, to
fruition!

Within six years of this evil and fatuous message, the once prosperous
and civilized people of Germany could gaze around themselves
and see hardly one brick piled upon another, as the godless Red Army
swept toward Berlin. But I mention this conjuncture for another reason.
Believers are supposed to hold that the pope is the vicar of Christ
on earth, and the keeper of the keys of Saint Peter. They are of course
free to believe this, and to believe that god decides when to end the
tenure of one pope or (more important) to inaugurate the tenure of
another. This would involve believing in the death of an anti-Nazi
pope, and the accession of a pro-Nazi one, as a matter of divine will, a
few months before Hitler's invasion of Poland and the opening of the
Second World War. Studying that war, one can perhaps accept that 25
percent of the SS were practicing Catholics and that no Catholic was
ever even threatened with excommunication for participating in war
crimes. (Joseph Goebbels was excommunicated, but that was earlier
on, and he had after all brought it on himself for the offense of marrying
a Protestant.) Human beings and institutions are imperfect, to
be sure. But there could be no clearer or more vivid proof that holy
institutions are man-made.

Taken from the chapter: An Objection Anticipated: The Last-Ditch Case Against Secularism

I recommend you read it, or something like it rather than make yourself look foolish with such simplistic thinking.

philologos

I've read the book. I think his get out clause from state atheism isn't good enough though. Claiming that Communism is a religion is a strange way to get out of the question of whether or not killing people of faith was motivated by irreligion.

The Nazism card as Christianity is ridiculous. They tried to manipulate Christianity to their own aims and when people like Dietrich Bonhoffer stood up to them, they decided the only other solution was to destroy it:

In 1998 documents were released by Cornell University from the Nuremberg Trials, that revealed Nazi plans to exterminate Christianity at the end of World War II. The documents cover the Nuremberg trials of leading Nazis and demonstrate the deliberate genocide of Jews during the Holocaust, in which some six million Jews were killed. One senior member of the U.S. prosecution team, General William Donovan, as part of his work on documenting Nazi war crimes, compiled large amounts of documentation that the Nazis also planned to systematically destroy Christianity

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

I've read the book. I think his get out clause from state atheism isn't good enough though. Claiming that Communism is a religion is a strange way to get out of the question of whether or not killing people of faith was motivated by irreligion.

Killing people who 'threatened' the state was the motivation. Whether religious or not, they were all killed. Stalin did not discriminate. Deny this, and you deny reality, though you seem comfortable with this.

Unless I missed a passage in the Atheist bible that says to kill believers... Do you have a copy?

Jakkass wrote: »

The Nazism card as Christianity is ridiculous. They tried to manipulate Christianity to their own aims and when people like Dietrich Bonhoffer stood up to them, they decided the only other solution was to destroy it:

Christianity and its institutions seemed perfectly happy to go along with it, eh? Let's not forget, Germany was and is a Christian country. However, I really wouldn't be so myopic to offer such a facile solution as...

Christianity = cause of all major 20th century wars/killings

Communism and Nazism were about politics. The most fanatical kind of politics. Atheism did not drive Stalin to kill no more than Catholicism caused Hitler to kill. These "atheists caused WWII" answers are so idiotic.

philologos

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Killing people who 'threatened' the state was the motivation. Whether religious or not, they were all killed. Stalin did not discriminate. Deny this, and you deny reality, though you seem comfortable with this.

Why were believers targetted if it wasn't to purge them from their society. It seems very little more than make excuses, which is unfortunately what you and Hitchens do.

Most people of faith accept that the Crusades happened, and acknowledge that they should have never happened. We accept that there was fault. Why is it so difficult for atheists to do the same?

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Unless I missed a passage in the Atheist bible that says to kill believers... Do you have a copy?

Nice one. The same argument can be used in our case. Such death in the name of Christianity wasn't remaining true to the example of Jesus Christ. That's why they were hugely regrettable.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Christianity and its institutions seemed perfectly happy to go along with it, eh? Let's not forget, Germany was and is a Christian country. However, I really wouldn't be so myopic to offer such a facile solution as...

Nonsense. Please read something about the Confessing Church in Germany.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Christianity = cause of all major 20th century wars/killings

Absolute nonsense. WW1 wasn't caused by Christianity, WW2 wasn't caused by Christianity. State atheism took the lives of 100 million people.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Communism and Nazism were about politics. The most fanatical kind of politics. Atheism did not drive Stalin to kill no more than Catholicism caused Hitler to kill. These "atheists caused WWII" answers are so idiotic.

Interesting, but history from the time suggests that atheism was a driving movement in all of these things.

If one isn't willing to deal with state atheism and what was caused under it, one shouldn't be so quick to blame religion for all wars. Why? Due to the fact that it is absolute nonsense to claim it.

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

Why were believers targetted if it wasn't to purge them from their society. It seems very little more than make excuses, which is unfortunately what you and Hitchens do.

Most people of faith accept that the Crusades happened, and acknowledge that they should have never happened. We accept that there was fault. Why is it so difficult for atheists to do the same?



Nice one. The same argument can be used in our case. Such death in the name of Christianity wasn't remaining true to the example of Jesus Christ. That's why they were hugely regrettable.



Nonsense. Please read something about the Confessing Church in Germany.



Absolute nonsense. WW1 wasn't caused by Christianity, WW2 wasn't caused by Christianity. State atheism took the lives of 100 million people.



Interesting, but history from the time suggests that atheism was a driving movement in all of these things.

If one isn't willing to deal with state atheism and what was caused under it, one shouldn't be so quick to blame religion for all wars. Why? Due to the fact that it is absolute nonsense to claim it.

So much drivel/misrepresentation... I would be doing myself a disservice by forming an adequate response. I have work to do, stop wasting my time with this rubbish.

BombSquad

Jakkass wrote: »

State atheism took the lives of 100 million people.

Bullsh*t. Power and control were the motivations, religion was considered an obstacle in the way. People weren't killed in the name of atheism.

philologos

BombSquad wrote: »

Absolute and utter mis-representative bullsh*t. Power and control were the motivations, religion was considered an obstacle in the way. People weren't killed in the name of atheism.

It's no less BS than the claim that religion has started all wars or even most wars.

If one is subject to scrutiny, so must state atheism. Simple as.

BombSquad

Jakkass wrote: »

It's no less BS than the claim that religion has started all wars or even most wars.

Who claimed that? Below is the only post I can find in this thread which you could be referring to, and if it is you're totally mis-representing it.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

However, it seems the Atheism strain of the virus does not mutate into countless sub-divisions, nor does it kill the host or lead its host to kill others, in its name.

Please forgive my ignorance and tell me which war was started in the name of atheism.

Flamed Diving

BombSquad wrote: »

Please forgive my ignorance and tell me which war was started in the name of atheism.

*ding*

Yet another person fails to read my posts correctly.

BombSquad

Flamed Diving wrote: »

*ding*

Yet another person fails to read my posts correctly.

Eh? Not quite sure I understand.

Maybe check out the bold print?

BombSquad wrote: »

Below is the only post I can find in this thread which you could be referring to, and if it is you're totally mis-representing it.

Flamed Diving

BombSquad wrote: »

Eh? Not quite sure I understand.

Maybe check out the bold print?

Oh, I didn't realise that both posts were to Jakkass. My apologies.

philologos

BombSquad: It isn't war as such, but massacres / pogroms that took place under certain regimes during the 20th century.

BombSquad

Jakkass wrote: »

BombSquad: It isn't war as such, but massacres / pogroms that took place under certain regimes during the 20th century.

Vague. Stop beating about the bush and give an example.

The Mad Hatter

rofl

Flamed Diving wrote:

I really wouldn't be so myopic to offer such a facile solution as...

Christianity = cause of all major 20th century wars/killings

and Jakkass responds to

Flamed Diving wrote:

Christianity = cause of all major 20th century wars/killings

That's just too funny.

Zillah

Some times while reading these threads I need to take a moment away from the computer and mourn for humanity.

EDIT: Also, technically my post count is over nine thousand!

The Mad Hatter

Zillah wrote: »

Some times while reading these threads I need to take a moment away from the computer and mourn for humanity.

EDIT: Also, technically my post count is over nine thousand!

What nine thousand?!

Turtwig

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

What nine thousand?!

No, OVER NINE THOUSAND!!

pljudge321

Getting back on topic, I must say that some of the comments below the article are truly frightening, what the hell (ironic I know) is wrong with some people.

LOL, James. Christians, although the majority, are endlessly attacked by the media and political elite in America. Crosses are being banned and censored all over the country, news organisations mock them, Hollywood makes films attacking them, the arts world makes anti-Christian progaganda.

And to top it off, look at Obama and his team – the most anti-Christian bunch I’ve ever heard of in American politics. Just look at Obama’s Science czar, who has called for forced abortions, sterilants in drinking water and all sorts of Chinese ideas. Look at the Safe Schools czar, who has complained that schools promote HETEROsexuality.

Atheists fill the White House now and that is certainly not a good thing. Just look at what their nihilism has done to this once great Britain.

Turtwig

pljudge321 wrote: »

Getting back on topic, I must say that some of the comments below the article are truly frightening, what the hell (ironic I know) is wrong with some people.

Poe's Law

Overheal

Jakkass wrote: »

It is funny (as in perculiar, not laughable) how people wish to claim that religion has caused mass death while conveniently excluding what happened in the 20th century.

Im gonna play The Crusades card. Religion also killed the son of God, apparently.

dragonsgates

Flamed Diving wrote: »

So much drivel/misrepresentation... I would be doing myself a disservice by forming an adequate response. I have work to do, stop wasting my time with this rubbish.

I feel the same.

Flamed Diving

dragonsgates wrote: »

I feel the same.

Good for you.