The Future of New Clubs..

jimjo

What do people think the future holds for many new courses?

I mean in the way of big spending resorts that have opened in the last number of years that might not be able to get enough members or generate enough income from green fees. Say for example Knightsbrook, Castleknock, Kileen Castle (We can all think of others) each not far from each other and all having other established clubs (Knightsbrook/County Meath) (Castleknock/Elmgreen & Hollystown) (Kileen Castle/Blackbush) on their door steps with higher membership numbers. Each of the newer clubs are in a difference class to their respected neighbour, for example and this in no drespect to Elmgreen but Castleknock even at twice the price of green fee could be seen as better value.

I know when these high spending clubs opened they hoped for the free spending corporate days to generate a large amount of income, although that day is not completely gone it has dramatically decreased.

We've already heard about the upcoming closure of Luttrellstown. Will the type of clubs mentioned above close or will they have to get real and offer cheaper green fees or annual memberships without a joining fee (Granted Castleknock has already done this, but at 3,000E + Vat its still rather steep). However if they have huge repayments they mightn't be able to adjust their fees....

Personally I'd hate to see any course close but it unfortunately looks worrying.

Thoughts?

G1032

jimjo wrote: »

What do people think the future holds for many new courses?

Each of the newer clubs are in a difference class to their respected neighbour, for example and this in no drespect to Elmgreen but Castleknock even at twice the price of green fee could be seen as better value.

Big talk all summer of Athenry going bust. Seem to have ridden the storm somewhat - hasn't gone under yet, and lets hope it doesn't.

As for the newer clubs being in a different class - That is def not the case in Galway. No new club is even nearly as good as the established ones. Not even close.

SuprSi

I think that if any course can survive through the next 3 - 4 years it will be fine. Like any consumer service they have had to become a little creative with how they go about enticing new customers and some have been more successful than others. I have little sympathy for courses that were charging 20 - 30k in joining fees now struggling. Having said that, like you I hate seeing any course close.

Golf courses and clubs are going to have to start/continue being creative with how they attract new members and green fee paying punters. This is a common trend for any service relying on the public for its survival. Lots of industries, including golf courses, have had it easy for so long and now that things are tougher they are struggling as they didn't think it would turn so bad so quickly. I'm sure there was also a sort of elitism among wealthy golf clubs which has quickly disappeared - something I'm glad of.

I'm delighted to be able to become a member in a good golf course in Dublin. I view it as a privilege, something that I wouldn't have been able to consider 2 - 3 years ago. It's just a shame that it took a recession for this to happen.

Mister Sifter

I don't blame the courses for charging 30k for membership during the boom years. Anyone who paid it is the one who needs to have a long hard look at themselves. People paid it, so fair play to the clubs for getting it out of them. Obviously they're now having to admit defeat and lower their demands, but for a while there they were milking it big time.

Golf in this country is massively over-priced. Even now it's still too expensive even after all the price cuts etc. Compare it to the cost of membership in other countries and it's totally out of sync. But then i suppose that could be said for most things in Ireland.

There are a whole host of clubs in the ar$e end of nowhere that are intended as top end/resort courses. Anyone in Dublin has about 20-30 such courses within an hours drive. Are they all sustainable in the current climate and at current prices? Not a chance.

mag

ronaldochokes wrote: »

No new club is even nearly as good as the established ones. Not even close.

i think jimjo means the quality of the course, and he is right in my experience. as an example - knightsbrook is a much superior course to co meath imho....and why wouldnt it be? - it had a huge budget and is properly designed, made (bent greens, etc..) and maintained.

jimjo

mag wrote: »

i think jimjo means the quality of the course, and he is right in my experience. as an example - knightsbrook is a much superior course to co meath imho....and why wouldnt it be? - it had a huge budget and is properly designed, made (bent greens, etc..) and maintained.

Yeah spot on Mag thats exactly what I mean. I've played both County Meath & Blackbush on more than one occasion and really enjoyed both courses. And played the two others mentioned, Hollystown & Elmgreen several times, but its fair to say that the four clubs named above and other types of established clubs around the country cant compete financially with these high spending clubs. Im sure a lot here have played luttrellstown, the greens there are amazing but how many others clubs have the financial backing of McManus & Magnier!

spurscormac

jimjo wrote: »

Yeah spot on Mag thats exactly what I mean. I've played both County Meath & Blackbush on more than one occasion and really enjoyed both courses. And played the two others mentioned, Hollystown & Elmgreen several times, but its fair to say that the four clubs named above and other types of established clubs around the country cant compete financially with these high spending clubs. Im sure a lot here have played luttrellstown, the greens there are amazing but how many others clubs have the finical backing of McManus & Magnier!

And if you read ronaldochokes post fully, you'll see that he is referring to the new clubs in the Galway area. None of them are a patch on the established courses. I know exactly where he's referring to, and he's right.
The newer courses may come good at a later stage, but will take a while for trees to mature etc, that will take years, if they survive through the tough times.

ShriekingSheet

I think there's an important factor that'll have a big say in this that no one's really mentioning and that's the established club's carmaraderie, atmosphere and established social elements.

As the OP says, in Leinster at least, it's hard to argue that all these new courses are better than their neighbours. But the courses that were there have established memberships who know each other, generations of families who play together and competitive players who've shared great days and shyte days in the Barton Cup etc.

This, in my view, is not something you can overlook and assume people will up-sticks after years of membership because the place down the road is longer and has fancy water features.

For alot of the people on this board, who get around to play plenty of courses, these new set-ups are great for a reasonable green-fee and a beautifully put together course. But to join somewhere, and have feck all people around to support competitions, presentations and social events - that's a different thing.

In my view, there aren't nearly enough new clubless golfers to fill the memberships of these new places, so they can only rely on tempting players from other clubs. For all the reasons above, I think people are going to be reluctant to do so.

mag

ss is bang on, and all of the reasons he mentons are why i am staying with the club im with which is an older club with much less resources than one of the above mentioned new ones. sure, our greens are no-where up to the same standard, etc... but a club is more than its facilities - camaraderie, general atmosphere, teams, etc... depending on your view can be much more important, i certinaly think so.

Webbs

There seems to have been a real trend towards bigger is better in the newer golf courses built in recent years (a mirror I suppose of the Irish economy). This however seemed to be at the expense of the average joe who wants to join a course and play on a decent track and have a good social element to it. If that means the course may take a few years to develop then so be it.
I personally want to play golf on a course where the members arent all about the money or social climbing which is definately the case in a lot of clubs. I guess its all horses for courses really.
As for clubs going to the wall then I sincerely hope clubs dont go under but they also need to cop on and price themselves according to the current market and not what was the norm a few short years ago

ipitydafool

very interesting topic of conversation, with the times that are in it. Like ShriekingSheet mentioned the social element to a club is huge and alot of the newer courses built are privately owned which can impact on the social side of the club. I would like to say i share the same sentiment as webb about clubs going under but unfortunately the economic reality is that we are way oversupplied with golf courses at the moment. There is some that are simply unviable and need to close so that others can survive.

dexter50

I believe some clubs have alot to answer for and are to blame for their own downfall, some clubs have spent vast amounts investing in everything but the golf course eg. Tulfarris with all its apartments highfield with its log cabins and subsequently their golf courses have suffered. Now with the downturn in the economy they have nothing coming in and large debts to try and resolve and therefore the golf courses will suffer more.

I have alot of admiration for the way Dunmurray springs have handled themselves, they have an excellent course and had plans to move ahead with the erection of their clubhouse, but when the downturn happened they didn't drive on and hope for the best instead they stopped the work on the clubhouse and kept investing in the course, they also run loads of specials throughout the year to gain extra revenue often times with green fees between 10-20 euro and for one of the best courses in Kildare this is great value.

Isn't it better to get revenue like this and promote your course, rather than stay charging 40 euro a round and have an empty course.

They now have plans to resume work on the clubhouse.

This is how clubs survive.

BombSquad

dexter50 wrote: »

IDunmurray springs have handled themselves, they have an excellent course and had plans to move ahead with the erection of their clubhouse, but when the downturn happened they didn't drive on and hope for the best instead they stopped the work on the clubhouse and kept investing in the course, they also run loads of specials throughout the year to gain extra revenue often times with green fees between 10-20 euro and for one of the best courses in Kildare this is great value.

Agreed. Played in Dunmurry twice this year. Great value, good course and a good atmosphere... Hopefully it'll be around for a while to come.

Mister Sifter

Isn't the problem with most new clubs that they are run by big firms and as businesses. The owners (Roganstown, Castleknock etc) don't really care if the members get along and do well in the Barton Cup, all they're concerned about is that monies are being paid and that they're in the black.

You can't buy atmosphere and craic, but unfortunately for anyone in the Dublin area who hasn't been in a club since they were a kid or who can't afford a huge joining fee, they just have to go without and give their money to the men in suits.

PhilipMarlowe

Gowran is a new club (2001) and is a commercial course but there is a great bunch of members there and we have 3 Leinster pennants so far
The social side of things may suffer from location as much as anything... older clubs are often now suburban but more modern courses have obviously been built in more remote locations... One thing I like about being a member of a 'new' club is that you don't have someone there who's been a member since before they had electricity and all the jazz that can go along with 'tradition'.... obviously there are loads of positive sides to a traditional club but it's nice to be among your peers too...

Kevinmarkham

A highly entertaining and relevant thread!

Some great points made by everybody and I would agree with all of them. It's not difficult to compare the big new courses with the huge property developments that all went on in the boom. Everyone got carried away and assumed it would just go on and on and that people would continue to buy.

I think there will be several that struggle - Macreddin has obviously reached a critical point, but the likes of Moyvalley are facing real hardship. They didn't embrace the local community at the start, preferring to go all out for the €75K joining fee and the 'big' boys for whom that was a drop in the financial ocean. From what I was told, this led to the locals being very dismissive of the club and so they weren't eager to join when joining fees fell (all the way to 8K). As Mr Sifter pointed out, many of these new courses are run by businesses, driven by profits and not by community/membership.

As to whether they'll survive, there have to be casualties - at the top end and in the middle - and it will be a matter of weeding out the weakest. What I think is worst of all is that some really good clubs could go too. Luttrellstown is not my favourite but I know plenty of people love the place. I wouldn't be too surprised if Paddy Power put out a list of clubs that are in trouble and the odds that they won't make it through 2010.

Licksy and Sheet both make the point about club atmosphere and that's a huge part of golf. Friendliness in a clubhouse can be more important than the quality of the course itself - it all depends on how you like your golf.

One other point I'll make that may raise a few hackles - Committees and Councils need to start working in the modern age, looking at how the new generation of golfers 'use' golf, where they find their information and what they're prepared to pay. A lot of clubs are doing things the way they used to do them 20/30 years ago (someone made the comment about elitism - but I think it's more about being stuck in a rut), while the big new clubs seem motivated by corporate green fees. A few clubs have blogs, but what about Facebook and Twitter, or offering daft green fees that cause a buzz. Rathcore's and Dunmurry Spring's approach of cheap green fees introduced the courses to a wide range of different golfers who will have discovered how good the courses are. Word spreads (as on here) and more people go. When the recession wanes there will be more people out there who want to go back and play - or join.

What's that appalling cliche? Think outside the box; push the envelope...

Ronaldochokes - glad to see Athenry has made it through. Too nice a course to close, but that new clubhouse must have been pricey. And that goes back to the Committee/Council topic. Too many clubs seem intent on building or improving clubhouses when the course needs better care (this is definitely not aimed at Athenry BTW) - and then a nice big surplus vanishes.

Is it any wonder that people don't want to be on a committee - it's a thankless task whatever decision you make.

OK. Sorry. Rant over

dinnyman

After a break of 10 odd years, I got bitten by the bug once again this summer. I now intend to join a good course after Christmas.

However my biggest fear is choosing a club that could potentially run into trouble in the months / years ahead.

I know there are rumours (many of which unfounded) about a lot of the new clubs.

Having played a number of the new clubs in the Meath / Dublin area, I am hoping to join Rathcore as it really stood out on a number of aspects (quality, welcome, club house etc.) Apparently though this is just one of many clubs that there are local "rumours" about..

So after that long winded post - my question is - is there any way you can be sure of the new club you are joining or is it juts a case of pot luck??

jimjo

Out of all of this I wonder are there still people who are prepared to pay 15,000E to join say Knightsbrook? Cause thats still their asking price on their website. To buy a share in the impressive Concra Wood its 17,000E. Personally I cant see how anyone in their right minds would pay that, not just for Knightbrook or Concra Wood but for any course. I've heard of members not paying their yearly fee's cause they simply cant afford it, what than happens to the members as they already paid a joining fee?

As we've established the business minded new clubs could well suffer the most as in these times your ordinary member will stick to the club they've played for the last number of years, where they can go in have banter by the bar, watch whatever match or golf is on the TV, and have the atmosphere that does not seem to exist in the newer plush clubhouses half empty and dead.

Already i've seen the Headfort drop their joining fee's from 10,000 to 5,000, the committee actually wanted to drop it to 3,000 but apparently the members kicked up a mighty fuss, cant blame them. I would hate to lose that type of money. Seapoint if I recall correctly were asking big money to join (not sure of the exact amount) and now they offer annual membership for 1,500E.

Club Owners/Committees face difficult decisions about lowering their joining fees while at the same time keeping excising members happy. I could only imagine if a member paid 8K into a club and now they offer annual membership for 1K a year without a joining fee they must feel sick! However clubs up and down the country will have to do this in an attempt to get desperately needed cash..

jimjo

Mister Sifter wrote: »

Isn't the problem with most new clubs that they are run by big firms and as businesses. The owners (Roganstown, Castleknock etc) don't really care if the members get along and do well in the Barton Cup, all they're concerned about is that monies are being paid and that they're in the black.

You can't buy atmosphere and craic, but unfortunately for anyone in the Dublin area who hasn't been in a club since they were a kid or who can't afford a huge joining fee, they just have to go without and give their money to the men in suits.

Spot on with both comments Mister, a little off topic but does Michael O'Leary care if you are happy on his flight.. does he hell, sure its a bonus but he's out to make a profit and naturally so are club owners.

dinnyman wrote: »

I know there are rumours (many of which unfounded) about a lot of the new clubs.

Having played a number of the new clubs in the Meath / Dublin area, I am hoping to join Rathcore as it really stood out on a number of aspects (quality, welcome, club house etc.) Apparently though this is just one of many clubs that there are local "rumours" about..

So after that long winded post - my question is - is there any way you can be sure of the new club you are joining or is it juts a case of pot luck??

Like my above post, I would advise against paying a joining fee, I'm very much sure they would sort you out with an yearly membership package I'm sure someone here brought that up before.

Sandwich

jimjo, on Concra, they are now offering membership for 1000. You dont own a share but full membership rights. Not too many shelling out 17k these days so they had to do something. (awesome course btw)

sweetswing

Sandwich wrote: »

jimjo, on Concra, they are now offering membership for 1000. You dont own a share but full membership rights. Not too many shelling out 17k these days so they had to do something. (awesome course btw)

thats some deal for that track if i lived a little closer i would be on it in a flash.

jimjo

Sandwich wrote: »

jimjo, on Concra, they are now offering membership for 1000. You dont own a share but full membership rights. Not too many shelling out 17k these days so they had to do something. (awesome course btw)

Thats real value, although I haven't played it I've heard great reports about the course. They dont say that on their website but than again they might have their reasons

ipitydafool

This article is most interesting and perhaps worrying as lahinch would be one of the most popular golf clubs in Ireland, having said that even with the reduction in green fees i cant see myself paying €100-125 to play there.I would also imagine if they get to push the subscriptions increase through, alot more older clubs like lahinch will try the same. Anyone know what the current sub is at lahinch?

Independent.ie

Club in drive to plug hole in finances with fee bounce

By Gordon Deegan
Tuesday October 13 2009
The finances of one of the country's best known and most exclusive golf clubs are in the rough after a €500,000 drop in green-fee income this year.
In response to a projected combined loss of €1.2m this year and next at Lahinch Golf Club, the club's council chairman, Austin Slattery, has called an extraordinary general meeting (EGM) seeking hikes of up to €200 in members' subscriptions for 2010.
In a letter to members calling the EGM for Sunday, October 25, Mr Slattery has stated that the club is projecting a loss of €630,000 for 2009 and similar levels for 2010. The losses for this year and 2010 follow the club recording a loss of €551,323 in 2008.
In his letter, Mr Slattery told members: "It is your council's view that these circumstances will continue into the foreseeable future, which would leave us in an untenable financial position, thus we believe that we have no option but to seek the support of the membership through an increase in annual subscriptions."
Pointing out that, historically, subscriptions have been subsidised by green-fee income, Mr Slattery is proposing an increase of €100 in individual subs and €200 for family memberships for next year.
He said that "the economic climate both here and, critically, in the US has impacted very severely on our ability to generate green-fee income".
Overheads
In response to the downturn, Lahinch golf club this year reduced green fees to €100 per person at weekdays and €125 per person at weekends.
Last year, Lahinch applied a flat green-fee rate for €165 throughout the week.
Mr Slattery said that the club has cut its overheads by €430,000 this year.
Figures circulated by Mr Slattery show that the golf club anticipates to generate €923,895 this year in green fees, €946,105 down on the €1.87m generated in green fees in 2007.
- Gordon Deegan

jimjo

Heres an article from the Irish Independent on joining fees

http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/entrance-fees-rip-as-clubs-look-to--halt-slide-1976510.html

There also a similar article, but in more detail, in The Times, but after a quick look I can’t seem to find the link.

jdf

The Times article can be found here

bogmanfan

The table in the Indo article said that Lucan had dropped its entrance fee entirely. Can't seem to get through to them on the phone. Anyone know if this is correct?

death1234567

Solution: Eliminate Entrance fees and have golf clubs similar to gym's where you pay a small regristration fee for a first time membership eg. €100-200 and then the annual sub is the same as normal.

Pro's: you get new more casual members who may not play on the course that often but will add revenue for the club. More players = more revenue in shop/bar.

Con's: you alienate the existing membership who paid a massive membership fee. Possible overload of members at peak times, BH weekends etc.

I'm not a member of any golf club because its too pricey for what you get IMO. Better off in societies or green fees as its cheaper in the long run. If I could pay a resonable yearly fee for a golf course (like Athenry) then I would definitely pay it and there are many more like me. But in some clubs the members having paid alot prefer to keep the club for themselves and not to open up the membership options.

SuprSi

bogmanfan wrote: »

The table in the Indo article said that Lucan had dropped its entrance fee entirely. Can't seem to get through to them on the phone. Anyone know if this is correct?

It's on the GUI website;

http://www.gui.ie/membership_search_results.asp?area=1&page=7&clubProvince=3&clubCounty=&membershipVacancies_full=1&membershipVacancies_country=&membershipVacancies_family=&membershipVacancies_junior=&membershipVacancies_youth=&membershipVacancies_overseas=&membershipVacancies_56day=

Curly7

bogmanfan wrote: »

The table in the Indo article said that Lucan had dropped its entrance fee entirely. Can't seem to get through to them on the phone. Anyone know if this is correct?

They haven't dropped it completely, I think they're just charging €2500 (inclusive of subs) over 10 years now or something like that, it was up on their website last time i checked

bogmanfan

Cheers guys. Looks like they're spreading it out over 10 years, rather than charging it upfront. :rolleyes:

stockdam

Mister Sifter wrote: »

Golf in this country is massively over-priced. Even now it's still too expensive even after all the price cuts etc. Compare it to the cost of membership in other countries and it's totally out of sync. But then i suppose that could be said for most things in Ireland.

Totally agree. Compare with the prices around Belfast. €30K for membership of a medium grade course was ridiculous. Membership at Skerries is nearly 50% more than my old home club and I got two courses for that - one being better than Skerries.

stockdam

I kinda don't care if some courses go to the wall. Many of them have been using silly and greedy business plans for years. They are only interested in making money rather than focusing on basics.

Big clubhouses need heating and staff. People now do not drink and drive. Personally I wouldn't care if the bar and restaurant closed. I don't care about changing rooms with lockers........I bring my clubs in the boot of the car and only need basic facilities for changing. I don't need a snooker table.......I just want to play golf.

If you go to most clubhouses during the week then you'll find them almost deserted. I am away long enough playing golf without spending hours in the clubhouse.

I don't need nice lakes, rockeries and flower beds - all I need is a decent fairway, a good green and some bunkers......oh and mature trees would be nice.

Clubs like Scrabo in County Down (Kevin's favourite) have not been charging joining fees for years. It's not my favourite course but it's as good as a lot around Dublin that still want to charge enormous joining fees.

jimjo

Yeah really agree that clubs have been far too greedy and went excessive on big unused clubhouses which cost a fortune.

In a way I’d take that membership list of the GUI’s with a pinch of salt as it’s not updated that frequently. Clubs come out with new offers and it takes an age for that information to be transferred to the GUI site.

Interesting from those articles I didn’t realise Malahide were letting people in on just the annual sub or maybe I’m picking that up wrong.

Like Stockdam said about joining fee’s, what gets me is your Lucan, Balbriggan’s (no disrespect) and the likes charging 8-10K for a joining fees when you got a place like the Slieve Russell with no joining fee and around the same yearly sub! I know it’s down the country but its much more superior to most of these parkland courses with big joining fee’s around Dublin.

stumpypeeps

jimjo wrote: »

Yeah really agree that clubs have been far too greedy and went excessive on big unused clubhouses which cost a fortune.

In a way I’d take that membership list of the GUI’s with a pinch of salt as it’s not updated that frequently. Clubs come out with new offers and it takes an age for that information to be transferred to the GUI site.

Interesting from those articles I didn’t realise Malahide were letting people in on just the annual sub or maybe I’m picking that up wrong.

Like Stockdam said about joining fee’s, what gets me is your Lucan, Balbriggan’s (no disrespect) and the likes charging 8-10K for a joining fees when you got a place like the Slieve Russell with no joining fee and around the same yearly sub! I know it’s down the country but its much more superior to most of these parkland courses with big joining fee’s around Dublin.

I feel with the majority of courses your joining for the social aspect and not the golf. If you have a large entrance fee you keep the majority of the "riff Raff" away.:rolleyes:

bogmanfan

jimjo wrote: »

Like Stockdam said about joining fee’s, what gets me is your Lucan, Balbriggan’s (no disrespect) and the likes charging 8-10K for a joining fees when you got a place like the Slieve Russell with no joining fee and around the same yearly sub! I know it’s down the country but its much more superior to most of these parkland courses with big joining fee’s around Dublin.

Agreed. While Lucan is really handy for me, being almost walking distance from the front door, it's not a fantastic course by any means. And with lots of competition within 20 miles of it, I can't see there being too many takers at €12,000, even if they are spreading it out over 10 years :rolleyes:.

the_syco

Even though many of the, offer cheap green fees, I wonder do said clubs offer cheap green fee's for large societies? Say 20 or so people want to play at another course for the laugh... I'm thinking there's not much of a reduction for them, compared to last year (from what I've heard)?

As for the high fees, those with high fees usually have a round designed by someone decent, and it no doubt cost a few million to design, build, etc. In the coming months/years they'll see if they picked the right people to design the course. For example, Carton, out in Kildare, I've heard one round is great, but the other is full of bunkers, as if they tried to create a certain type of course (the name escapes me atm. "links" maybe?), but failed.

For now, I'll stick to the 3 par down the road.

Par71

jimjo wrote: »

Yeah really agree that clubs have been far too greedy and went excessive on big unused clubhouses which cost a fortune.

In a way I’d take that membership list of the GUI’s with a pinch of salt as it’s not updated that frequently. Clubs come out with new offers and it takes an age for that information to be transferred to the GUI site.

Not true, A club can log onto the GUI site and update thier own information. Doesnt take an age to update. Information is 95% correct on this site.

As for golf being far too expensive in Ireland I agree in a way and in others I dont. Take golf in the States for example, clubs over there are charging stupid amounts of money to join them, green fees are on a par with this country too. And with the amount of courses over there you would imagine they could lower prices but they dont. Even now they still charge big figures. That said it doesnt give us the right to charge big money either. Fees WILL drop in the next few years thats for sure.

Personally I would rater see golf courses staying in business, rather see green land than built up concrete monstrosities all over the place.

jimjo

Par71 wrote: »

Information is 95% correct on this site.

On the GUI site;

Hollystown is down as €1,375 when its actually been €1090 since about September

Elmgreen is down as €475 (full) when there’s an option of €850 unlimited golf ( in my eyes that full membership)

Donebate is down as €1289 for full membership but for 7 day membership its €1565

And no mentions of lease memberships, the vast majority of people that are willing to join a club are looking for this option as they don’t want to shell out a big amount of cash in these recessionary times, above are only a few examples. It is a good search tool for what it is.

But yeah getting back to your point yeah up to date alright there mate!

conman

Par71 wrote: »

jimjo wrote: »

Yeah really agree that clubs have been far too greedy and went excessive on big unused clubhouses which cost a fortune.

In a way I’d take that membership list of the GUI’s with a pinch of salt as it’s not updated that frequently. Clubs come out with new offers and it takes an age for that information to be transferred to the GUI site.

Not true, A club can log onto the GUI site and update thier own information. Doesnt take an age to update. Information is 95% correct on this site.

As for golf being far too expensive in Ireland I agree in a way and in others I dont. Take golf in the States for example, clubs over there are charging stupid amounts of money to join them, green fees are on a par with this country too. And with the amount of courses over there you would imagine they could lower prices but they dont. Even now they still charge big figures. That said it doesnt give us the right to charge big money either. Fees WILL drop in the next few years thats for sure.

Personally I would rater see golf courses staying in business, rather see green land than built up concrete monstrosities all over the place.

I had this debate about affordability and membership costs with a US golf website, and they were shocked at what we pay. They get a lot more bang for their buck too on average, with many (but by no means all) memberships came free lesons, golf shop discounts, leisure & gym/pool inclusive, free competitions and so on... most we tend to get is 10% discount in club shops, and a small bar tab.. there doesnt tend to be too much more on offer.

Unglika Norse

Just in reading through another thread that it states that Knightsbrook is at e15k. My understanding of the situation there now is that anyone who bought a 15k preferential share is at liberty to sell it for the now asking price of membership of 5k after september of next year the value of all of these preferential share wil be zero. by the way buying such a share at the 5k gives you no preferential share rights just a membership in the club.

The like of this and obviously Headfort and Rathcore with strong suggestions about another club in Meath which is allegedly going to hike it's fees from e750 to e1250 leads one, to question the logic of joining clubs which obviously have a huge debt never mind the likes of Moyvalley & New Forest and the many rumours about them,

For example I mean how many more members per year do they have to get to join just to service the debts if they can attract them how will they cope with them, staff are being laid off and hours reduced which will lead to a drop in standards, The Banks already have a number of administrators in places keeping them going, is it possible that some of these clubs will not be able to meet their debts and what will the outcome be for the membership then

Par71

jimjo wrote: »

On the GUI site;

Hollystown is down as €1,375 when its actually been €1090 since about September

Elmgreen is down as €475 (full) when there’s an option of €850 unlimited golf ( in my eyes that full membership)

Donebate is down as €1289 for full membership but for 7 day membership its €1565

And no mentions of lease memberships, the vast majority of people that are willing to join a club are looking for this option as they don’t want to shell out a big amount of cash in these recessionary times, above are only a few examples. It is a good search tool for what it is.

But yeah getting back to your point yeah up to date alright there mate!

I did say 95% not 100% as I said it is up to the club to update, some couldnt be bothered but most do. Thats all.

death1234567

Par71 wrote: »

And with the amount of courses over there you would imagine they could lower prices but they dont.

IIRC Ireland has more golf courses per head of population than any other country.

Mister Sifter

Look at the number of courses within an hour's drive from dublin, all of the same ilk, chasing the same customers, many of whom have been built in the past 10 years.

Within 30 minutes of my house in Dublin i have the choice of around 20-25 courses all of which would regard themselves in the same 'championship' market.