Advice needed urgently - please help

joelou

My boss has just thrown into conversation real casual like that he needs me to take a paycut. When I asked how much he says down to 8.50p/h! Now I know this is under the minimum wage and that legally he cannot ask me to work below that but to be honest another 15cent is not really going to make a whole lot of difference to me.
Six months ago he made me take a paycut of 84euro less into my hand a week and now he wants me to work for below the minimum wage, he said the business is in dire straits and that he has to do it. There in only me and him on the payroll and to date he has taken no cuts. He told me as before it is not up for discussion and it is with effect from tomorrow! I have worked here for 7 years and run the office acounts/vat/wages/admin/phones/secretarial etc.
He will not lessen my hours I work 40 hours per week he says he needs me here for my full 40hours. He will not budge on anything.
I was already struggling to make ends meet and have just missed my second mortgage payment. DH's job is only 24hours per week and we are still waiting to get money (with backpay) from the dole for the other 2days.
I have two young kids who are costing me 208euro a week in childcare and various other loans. I just dont know what to do I'm so upset. I rang citizens advice and they told me all legal stuff and in a round about way said stress can make you ill and you would be entitled to illness benefit and if the business went to the wall I would still be entitled to redundancy up to 26weeks sick certs.
I'm sorry to be posting here but it gets the most traffic and I know there are others here in equally hard times but I really need some advice.

seamus

€8.50/hour * 40 hours = €180/week.

If you quit the job and stay at home to look after your kids, you save €28/week. That's just me providing you with an alternative view. Your boss cannot pay you less than minimum wage. Tell him that if the business cannot afford to pay you minimum wage, he'll have to lay you off. He's reducing your pay in the hope that you'll just leave and he won't have to pay you redundancy.

AARRRGH

Sorry to hear about your situation.

Do you know for the fact that the company is in dire straits, or are you only relying on his word?

As seamus says, you would be better off on the dole.

wmpdd3

Sorry to hear about your situation too.

I can't imagine the stress this is causing you.

Do not, what every you do, just leave.

You will be entitled to redundancy payment even if the business goes to the wall.

Check it out here:

https://redundancy.entemp.ie/rpsportal/initialiseRedundancyCalculatorAction.do?locale=en


Atleast €5000 for 7 years service.

Stay no matter what. I hate to advise this but yes I would agree with the 'out on certs' plan as this would let the manager see how much they need you.

Anyone I know running a business that is on the brink, would at least let you go on 4 or 3 days.

I think there may be more to this, are you sure you are registered properly as a tax payer?

Is the employer steering clear of having to deal with the social welfare office, were you employed 'cash in hand' at any time?

If so this would all come out if you were to go on a short week or sign on.

( Am I missing something but isn't 40hrs by 8.50 €340)

Sleepy

For a start tell him to get stuffed - he needs you to sign a document agreeing to any wage cuts... though presumably if he's trying to get you to work for less than minimum wage you're not even getting pay slips etc?

Might it be worth talking to a solicitor regarding constructive dismissal?

joelou

Hi all thanks for your replies. To answer some of your questions I have no written contract, he point blank refuses to cut my hours, I know for a fact he has not taken any paycut, things financially are that bad, he is a pretty clueless businessman and has only lasted in this business in my opinions by his contacts and pure luck as the past few years have been good in this industry and now that people are shopping around and are not so willing to throw their hard earned cash at just anybody he is suffering as he does not know how to deal with customers and comes across as a very ignorant man . We are fully registered in fact we are a main dealer for a prominant car manufacturer. I have never got a payslip from here as we do not have a payroll package on our system, it was not viable since we ran on such a small staff.
He is a bully and knows I am a naturally weak person.
Before when I took the last paycut I done it out of empathy and wanting to keep my job and truely believed he needed me here to keep the administrative/accounts side of things going as he is complety clueless about EVERYTHING! I mean in the grand scheme of things how is he truely going to save a failing business by cutting my wages, surely that is not going to have any impact on the current situation.
So its making me think would he maybe be trying to bully me out of my job so as not to have to pay me redundancy? Again as weak as I am I will not let him do that but would that be a factor for him do you think?
He totally understands my situation at home and knows I am the main earner and probably thinks I will lie down and take whatever he throws at me. And I know my personal life is not his problem but how can he possibly expect me to take that kind of paycut and still pay the same for my childcare as he wont lessen my hours.
I really dont know what I am going to do. I am going to ring NERA this morning and see what they advise but I truely think he has me right where he wants me.....

Sleepy

Sounds to me like you have him exactly where you want him tbh, he's in breach of a whole raft of labour legislation.

Maybe contacting FLAC to see if you can get some help from there?

Then, negotiate yourself a nice redundancy package based on the premise of reporting him for all the laws he's broken unless he makes you redundant at 4/5 weeks salary (your original salary, not the reduced one) per year worked...

Are you sure your PRSI / PAYE contributions have been made?

Speedy2009

Be strong don't let him bullly you around!!
Definately dont work for less than minimum wage - by cutting your wages further he is saving very little i would imagine compared to other savings he could make!
I think if you are looking after the accounts - show him the savings he would make by giving you less hours and then you can claim the dole for the other day (i think dont know exactly how this all works) or by cutting other areas of expenditure - look through all your accounts.

AARRRGH

joelou wrote: »

things financially are that bad

The fact that the business really is in financial trouble weakens your position somewhat.

An ex-employer of mine owed me a lot of wages (around 12k). I spoke to two solicitors about trying to get the money I was owed, but because the ex-employer was genuinely financially screwed, both solicitors advised me to not waste my time pursuing them as an employer can't pay out money he doesn't have.

So I think you need to be careful about how you react to your employers latest offer. I would definitely try to suggest other cost saving measures as a way of maybe saving a few cent on your hourly salary. For example, change phone company, or internet provider, drop the petty cash budget for the kitchen, etc.

He sounds like an arsehole though, so I can imagine you're going to have a hard few weeks ahead of you. Whatever you do don't quit your job - if you do you won't be able to claim the dole for (I believe) 9 weeks.

jobucks

seamus wrote: »

€8.50/hour * 40 hours = €180/week.

If you quit the job and stay at home to look after your kids, you save €28/week. That's just me providing you with an alternative view. Your boss cannot pay you less than minimum wage. Tell him that if the business cannot afford to pay you minimum wage, he'll have to lay you off. He's reducing your pay in the hope that you'll just leave and he won't have to pay you redundancy.

8.50/hour * 40 hours = €340

Hi OP,

I think you posted here about the original situation b4? I felt terribly sorry for you then and this is just not on that he's trying tto reduce your wage below the minimum... can you say it to him that it's against the law and see what his reaction is perhaps?

Best of luck, hope he see's sense

vector

So your boss has financial problems, well so do you (now)

I was in a situation similar to yourself, about two years ago, during the good times, I took a cut in my per hour pay, and also did less hours... I thought it was the right thing to do... Well now my goodwill has come back in my face...

I'm on jobseekers benefit and the figure I get is based on my average weekly earnings two years ago. Thanks to my goodwill to that employer I am in a lower band and wont get the 200 approx, Ill only get 160.

That employer is not just a distant memory decorating my CV, it was fun working there etc, but think of the consequences going forward of working for little.

joelou

just as you say Vector he is determining the rest of my financial future as well as my current one. I only this evening realised that if the business does go to the wall that my redundancy will be based on my current wage not what it was before he issued all of my paycuts, surely this is so unfair:mad:
He told me this evening that the paycut is effective from next week and he is also taking a paycut, he says that we are on the verge of liquidity but he always cries the poor mouth, although i think this time it may in fact be true.
He told me that from next week on I will only get paid for the hours I work, now I have taken the most of my holidays but I have a half day next Wednesday and next Friday booked of the last few months as I have prior engagements. Now I am not being cheeky taking these I am using up my holidays and I will still have 3 days left to take till the end of the year. I'm pretty sure I can argue this but I know he just wont belive me even tho I have kept record of every day/hours I have taken off from the beginning of the year. But I left that to argue with him till next week as I had not the energy to battle that out with him this evening.
I really feel defeated and to top it all off as I left this evening he told me as and from Monday I am to operate from the reception desk as he will be "in and out" nothing new there, I think it is he trying to control what little he still can. He has not paid our major parts suppliers and as a result they have cut off all our management systems which means we are operating in ridiculous circumstances.:(

gline

The way I would look at it is, if he cannot afford to pay you minimum wage.... then he cannot afford your services. If you accept this cut, he may just come back to you in 2 weeks time with another 20cent drop and keep doing that and as you said your redundancy will be based on the new wage which you cannot let happen, he sounds as if he is really trying to use you as the ship is sinking As far as I know if you are due redundancy and the company cant pay it, you get a state one... not 100% sure on this, but I know 2 people that applied for one.

Do you get on well with your boss? Is he in anyway resonable? If so just sit down with him and ask him to make you redundant as he cannot afford you, strongly mention that it is illegal to pay you under minimum wage so for that reason you cant take it, dont threaten him. If he still refuses, talk to him the next day and then mention that you will have to take it further if he wont "play ball".

I know due to the situation you are in, it may seem like a big risk to do this, but he will just keep doing it if he knows you fold everytime and in all honesty, it sounds as if he wont be around much longer at all, so you will probably be out of a job soon anyway. Have you been looking around for anything else? In the meantime I would be doing that, you might have more of a chance of getting a job while you are in one.

At the end of the day, it looks as if your boss would be better off closing his doors if he cannot even run a proper business due to lack of funds. If he continues the way he is going he is just digging a deeper hole.

just my 2cents I hope everything does work out for you in the end

seamus

jobucks wrote: »

8.50/hour * 40 hours = €340

!
Wtf went wrong with my maths.

As others have said, you're kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you stand up to him, you stand having to chase this idiot for redundancy pay and dragging him through the labour court. If you accept the pay cut, there'll be another one 2 months down the line.

vector

>if he cannot afford to pay you minimum wage.... then he cannot afford your services.

Thats an excellent summary, might feel a bit cruel, but its your livelihood thats at stake

jobucks

gline wrote: »

The way I would look at it is, if he cannot afford to pay you minimum wage.... then he cannot afford your services.

Very well put

miec

Op

I am sorry to hear about your circumstances and I am apalled at how this cretin is treating you. You need to get advice about what to do when an employer breaks the minimum wage agreement, refuses to pay holiday pay (which you are fricking entitled to) and does not give you a payslip. Get that advice and then tell him he is breaking employment laws on several counts, if he sacks you for this, he breaks another law. You say you are weak with him, well I am sorry to sound harsh but you need to get a backbone now because your boss knows he can push you around and your family are suffering as a result. You need to stand up to him for your own self respect as well, otherwise some other boss in the future will treat you like a doormat.

You are entitled to a full wage for full weeks work, you are entitled to holidays that are paid, you deserve some recognition and thanks for the appalling work conditions, additional duties, the fact you have stayed in this job for seven years and you work for a person who cannot manage a piss up in a brewery, let alone run a business. Why is he constantly telling you things are so bad? He has no professionalism and why are you carrying this man? I know the job situation is bad out there, but I suggest you get another job fast, that is your third option, he is financially and emotionally screwing you over, and you are allowing him to do so as well. As scary as it is to stand up to a bully, you will be glad you have done so.

smcgiff

I think we're missing the big picture here. This company is going to close down.

How are you getting on sourcing other jobs?

Remember if you are made redundant the state will pay your statutory redundancy if your employer cannot afford to pay you, (although it can take some time to get it) and being paid under the minimum wage is grounds for constructive dismissal.

This is survival of the fittest time. In my opinion you would WANT to be made redundant from this role. To push him on you may want to take sick leave *Stress*.

Good luck

flash harry

First, hate to hear of any company in so much trouble and the way you are being treated is obviously a disgrace.

Somewhat summing up everyone elses good advice - JUST SAY NO

Refuse to take less pay. This will bring it to a head as he will either have to continue paying you OR make you redundant.

To be honest, the second option is probably better based on the disgusting working conditions you face. There is free legal aid attached to most citizens advice places so avail of it.

One small thing - he may be determining your immediate financial future but no one other than you determines the rest of your financial future so positive outlook etc (I know easier said...)

Best of luck

FH