The Irish Electorate

Davidth88

Hi.
I have only lived here a short time ( around 9 years ) , but in that time I have seen

TD's who were shown to be helping people evade tax , returned to the Dail
TD's who , if not proved to be corrupt then certainly with a stench about them , returned to the Dail
TD's who get so drunk they drive the wrong way up dual carrageways , returned to the Dail

And the list could go on , these are just the ones that spring to mind.

Now yesterday RTE , and the other news organisations , were in Kerry garnering opinion about JOD, guess what , from what I heard yesterday ( paraphased )
' Oh he is a great man ' , ' He is a being used as a scapegoat ' , he did nothing wrong ' , and of course ' yes of course I would vote for him again '

Tell me , why are the Irish electorate so loyal to their TD's ? , is it pure party loyalty ? Or is it simply voting for their neighbours ?

I truly don't understand it

Ludo

I believe it is a generational and parochial problem. The older generation will have known these people all their lives and so they will remain loyal to them as long as they provide tangible benefits to their local area. Younger people generally will not stand for that kind of corruption. Unfortunately, a lot of younger people don't vote so they end up getting re-elected.

I also do not believe it is a purely Irish problem. I'm sure similar examples could be found in many many coutries. For example the first result I got from Google gave me this :

http://www.ontheissues.org/AskMe/spousal_abuse.htm

I know it is 9 years old and not necessarily 100% true, but if googles first result outlines these criminals in the US Congress, then I can only imagine what else is out there.

Biggins

As Ludo rightly said, I too think its a parochial problem. Indeed we need to get the younger voters out too but such is the disgust, the normal response is "Why bother?" so the cronnies slip back in again. The young partly become creators of their own source of distainment.

People need (but sadly don't) to learn that just because a representative managed to do something locally for one individual, does not necessarily make them also a person with a lot of solutions to a national broad situation.

There is a hell of a difference and we need to be able to distinguish more the gap between one and the other.

TskTsk

Davidth88 wrote: »

Tell me , why are the Irish electorate so loyal to their TD's ? , is it pure party loyalty ? Or is it simply voting for their neighbours ?

Our politicians are probably a decent representation of our levels of (un)intelligence, (dis)honesty and (in)ability as a nation. It would appear that those who do vote, often vote for the wrong people, or for the wrong reasons. We are a democracy, and we definitely got the government we deserved.

Zambia

TD's who get so drunk they drive the wrong way up dual carrageways , returned to the dail


Hang on did he get voted back in...

Thats absurd

maxwell smart

Not only has he been returned to the Dail http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0427/mcdaidj.html

But he now appears to be someone who the radio stations roll out when they want a dissenting voice from the government side, though technically he is still outside the party. (I think).

Darragh29

It's an Irish thing OP... There's a bit of it in all of us to a certain degree. I've seen in before in workplace especially. People I've worked with in the past would be very vocal about curruption in politics, public life and all that, but then and again when they are shown some favouritism in relation to a promotion in work and they get a bit further up the ladder on the basis of an "auld nod and a wink", they forget that this too is a participation in corruption.

Same goes for "taking the p*ss a bit on the auld expenses", where the opportuniy arises...

Same if someone had a drink or two in the pub and decided to take a chance and drive the car home. If they got stopped and breathalised and happened to be marginally over the limit, the Garda, (who they might know as a neighbour and on this basis, expect a bit of an auld blind eye to be turned to what they saw as a genuine mistake on their part), would almost be expected to turn a blind eye and wag the finger warning the driver that they were extremely lucky that they were not being brought down to the station. If the driver was arrested and brought down to the station and the driver knew the Garda who had arrested him, the Garda would be the biggest c*nt in town for "going down the formal route"...

We don't even know we are doing it half the time, we're so used to it I think...

Ludo

Saying this is purely an Irish thing is completely wrong. Same thing happens in every small town/rural area throughout the world.

Big cities are different in this regard as everyone does not know everyone else so the problem is not that obvious in them.

Darragh29

Ludo wrote: »

Saying this is purely an Irish thing is completely wrong. Same thing happens in every small town/rural area throughout the world.

Big cities are different in this regard as everyone does not know everyone else so the problem is not that obvious in them.

Sorry I think it is an Irish thing, the talking out of both sides of your mouth that goes on in this country is an Irish thing. People themselves generally (not everyone I accept), have no real moral position that cannot be overturned by some benefit (usually money), and then they wonder why other people in places higher than them are not squeaky clean!

seamus

It's a parochial thing by-and-large. Small town Ireland is terrified of what their neighbours think about them and Irish Mammies are great at making their children feel guilty about doing what they want to do instead of what Mammy thinks they should do.

I know a woman who voted for someone in the last local elections - who she admitted was a complete waster and generally not a nice person, but got the vote because she was from her home town and mammy wanted the whole family to vote for her. Of course, this girl hasn't lived at home for 12 years so is effectively deciding what's best for an area where she doesn't have any moral right to do so.

We seem to have this rabid "home town pride" which is very difficult to get people to drop. People who left home 15 years ago and have no intention of going back, are still registered to vote in their parents' house and travel home every time to vote for someone who they don't know and will never have any effect on them. But they wouldn't ever dream registering to vote in the place that they're living now, because then they wouldn't be able to decide who gets elected at home.

It's bizarre.

Darragh29

seamus wrote: »

It's a parochial thing by-and-large. Small town Ireland is terrified of what their neighbours think about them and Irish Mammies are great at making their children feel guilty about doing what they want to do instead of what Mammy thinks they should do.

I know a woman who voted for someone in the last local elections - who she admitted was a complete waster and generally not a nice person, but got the vote because she was from her home town and mammy wanted the whole family to vote for her. Of course, this girl hasn't lived at home for 12 years so is effectively deciding what's best for an area where she doesn't have any moral right to do so.

We seem to have this rabid "home town pride" which is very difficult to get people to drop. People who left home 15 years ago and have no intention of going back, are still registered to vote in their parents' house and travel home every time to vote for someone who they don't know and will never have any effect on them. But they wouldn't ever dream registering to vote in the place that they're living now, because then they wouldn't be able to decide who gets elected at home.

It's bizarre.

Yeah there is defo a bit of that auld nonsense going on as well...

Davidth88

Davidth88 wrote: »

Tell me , why are the Irish electorate so loyal to their TD's ? , is it pure party loyalty ? Or is it simply voting for their neighbours ?

It's just a product of living in a small country with tightly knit communities.

In other countries they have different problems, like Italy where they like the womanising mafia fellow who owns all the media, or the UK where they vote for the guys who follow the USA into any old war at all, or Belgium where your local politician is still trying to delete the phone numbers of the paedophile rings from his phonebook, or the US of A where your representative may be trying to find a phone number for God and so on and so forth.

Long Onion

We should only be allowed vote in other constituencies - that would sort it out. The people of Mayo elect Kerry's representatives etc etc.

I'd love to get Tipp personally ...

OldJay

Davidth88 wrote: »

Tell me , why are the Irish electorate so loyal to their TD's? Is it pure party loyalty ? Or is it simply voting for their neighbours ?

Convenient tribalism.
The members of the electorate whose motivation for voting and speaking is based on this are not "loyal". Just selfish and hypocritical.
Bear in mind that not all the electorate is like this however.

joolsveer

Long Onion wrote: »

We should only be allowed vote in other constituencies - that would sort it out. The people of Mayo elect Kerry's representatives etc etc.

I'd love to get Tipp personally ...

We used have that system in County Dublin when councillors from Balbriggan would pass planning applications for Blanchardstown etc. Remember Ray Burke and Liam Lawlor?

seamus

Long Onion wrote: »

We should only be allowed vote in other constituencies - that would sort it out. The people of Mayo elect Kerry's representatives etc etc.

I'd love to get Tipp personally ...

And to spite our neighbours, we'd all vote for Fianna Fail councillors and then the entire country would be f*cked.

Long Onion

joolsveer wrote: »

Remember Ray Burke and Liam Lawlor?

Were they the two famous grave robbers?

bugler

I don't believe it's purely Irish, but we definitely have a bad dose of it. As a nation we are not very politically aware. We don't have strong political feelings on many, if any, issues. Ireland is relatively unusual in Europe in that we have not had a Social Democratic party among our top two parties. Instead we have two parties (FF & FG, needless to say) who have no firm idealogy, and who can be very hard to pin down as having any sort of defined political inclination. They are both centrist, populist, off the cuff type of parties. They play most issues as they see them, and how they feel they are expected to play them. Public opinion plays a part, sure, but Irish politicians are used to telling the electorate what's best, not deciding what is best on the wishes of the electorate.

The issue of whether the Irish people have the government we 'deserve' is contentious, but there can be no doubt in my opinion that the lack of political interest of the electorate is reflected in the lack of political orientation of the elected representatives. If all you care about are the potholes outside your drive, or whatever parochial issue is affecting you then you don't have any great demands of the sort of man or woman who delivers on them.

As soon as the Irish electorate take an interest in issues like paternity leave; state sponsored or subsidised child care or healthcare then we may get politicans who take an interest in them. Until then all we have are people seeking power for power's own sake, and making policy decisions on their own whims.

Also, there really isn't anything specifically rural about this issue. Plenty of the biggest con-men are from or based in Dublin.

As a final word, whenever I get disheartened with the state of our politicians I look at Italy. That usually cheers me up a bit.

ednwireland

weird really i lived in the uk, where you vote for people you dont know and never heard of, here i have met or spoken to all 3 of our td's.

tell you the truth i dont know which way is better my mum was giving out about their mp who spent several thousand on a massaging chair and claimmed it.

BUT i do think all expenses should be receipted and there should be no daily allowances.
no idea who to vote for in donegal SW should there be an election, could see pearse doherty getting in, but i cant get on with SF policies, but anyone else who stands has there snout in the same trough.

Davidth88

Certainly , I am still surprised how ' hands on ' TD's are here . As ednwireland says in the UK , you never see/hear from your MP .

Most people in the Uk don't even know who their local MP is, partly because only a small percentage of seats ever change ownership. So for example if you lived in a deeply Conservative constituancy then the chances are you MP has been of the blue kind since god was a boy . Difference between first past the post and PR I suppose.

I am suprised here that people don't see TD's that do the things that I mentioned in my OP as bringing their area into disrepute and therefore reject them .... but I suppose better the devil you know maybe ?

ednwireland

davidth88

the problem seems to be who do you vote for ? you usually find the usual suspects standing and then a rag bag of single issue candidates. if the people standing are from ff or fg then they are so far up the greasy pole that they are no better than the encumbent and just want on the gravy train, not voting IMO is not an option, but like i said the alternatives arent there, and invariably if an indepndant is standing they are from the gene pool.

We had an issue where there was in fighting in the local FF camp and a raft of independants stood but they were all FF our town now has no councillor from the town.

and dont get me started on our tanaistes meddling in local politics