Ferrari's future

Slutmonkey57b

DiMontezemelo's comments of late, particularly around Kimi being "different" to the rest of the team, and the loss of the key 4 personnel are a big challenge I think. Now comes:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79306

Gilles Simon, head of engines and electronics during the time when Ferrari were bulletproof and unbeatable, is replaced by his (italian) predecessor, who was head during a time when Ferrari were unreliable and going nowhere fast. Lauda has commented that Ferrari is turning back to its "spaghetti culture". Culturally, McLaren is a team of engineers run by engineers, whereas Ferrari is... something else? I think this sort of emphasis on "Italian over quality" will result in exactly the same situation Ferrari were in last time they had this 30 years ago. ie ****ed.

EvilMonkey

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

DiMontezemelo's comments of late, particularly around Kimi being "different" to the rest of the team, and the loss of the key 4 personnel are a big challenge I think. Now comes:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79306

Gilles Simon, head of engines and electronics during the time when Ferrari were bulletproof and unbeatable, is replaced by his (italian) predecessor, who was head during a time when Ferrari were unreliable and going nowhere fast. Lauda has commented that Ferrari is turning back to its "spaghetti culture". Culturally, McLaren is a team of engineers run by engineers, whereas Ferrari is... something else? I think this sort of emphasis on "Italian over quality" will result in exactly the same situation Ferrari were in last time they had this 30 years ago. ie ****ed.

Is it possible that after 10 years at Toyota he is now qualified for the job?

I wouldn't be too bothered about what Niki Lauda says, he takes some amount of ****e these days.

supremenovice

McLaren? WTF??
The biggest clustercfuk of an organisation in sport.
Ron Dennis was so afraid of letting staff go to other teams that he invented jobs for them. They threw away the championship in 2007 and nearly did the same with Hakkinen in '98 & '99 & with Hamilton last year.
They are like a bumbling buffoon constantly tripping up over themselves whereas Ferrari are efficient and confident.
Everyone knows their job at Ferrari and they will throw their weight behind Alonso for the next few years when we find out that Massa has lost a tenth since his accident.

Slutmonkey57b

Look at the improvements to their car McLaren have been able to put together as a result of their engineering work this year compared to Ferrari - without Kimi, Ferrari would be buggered. The way a modern F1 team runs - driven by research, constant development, innovation and technology follows markers put down by Mclaren in the 80's. Before that, F1 was mainly privateer teams running standard engines on customer chassis. They were the first with carbon fibre, the first with simulators, the first with strategy departments. While Mclaren and their competitors were developing these systems, Ferrari were a laughing stock of inefficiency, incompetence and unreliability in the 80's. Their pit crews couldn't be trusted to get the wheels on. People forget that ferrari have a much longer history than the Schumacher years. The people responsible for that success came into a team that was in massive dissarray, culturally unfocused on the job at hand, and unreliable from an engineering point of view. They didn't just change the results, they changed the way the team worked. Those people are all gone now, and the chairman seems to be putting an emphasis that whether someone is of "ferrari" blood or not is more important than whether they are the best man for the job, which is a throwback to Ferrari's past, not its future. Ron Dennis's policy of never let quality staff walk out the door is a good one, not something to be ashamed of. Williams let Adrian Newey walk because they didn't want to give him increased autonomy from Patrick Head, and look what happened to them. McLaren's failures of reliability almost all came from engines - something that is no longer the case. Throwing away the championship resulted from not pandering to a man with a hot latin temper.

Dorsanty

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Look at the improvements to their car McLaren have been able to put together as a result of their engineering work this year compared to Ferrari - without Kimi, Ferrari would be buggered.

While the concerns are valid it is also well known that Ferrari have essentially stopped all work on this years car knowning full well it is a waste of time and money. They believe they should be able to secure 3rd place with the current model and couldn't do much better if they threw X million euros at the car. I agree with the choice myself.

It would be frustrating if all the hard work building Ferrari into what they became in the Schumi era will be destroyed, but if the people who came in then did their jobs well then they created a working culture of good procedures and checks such that whoever is in charge they shouldn't stop the system working. Then you just need to be worried about the quality and imagination of the engineers working in the wind tunnels, at the drawing boards, and writing the computer code for the electronics,etc.

Since I am a Ferrari fan from back in the Alesi and Berger days I hope they don't return to one or two wins a year. Here's hoping next years car will be a challenger for the title.

IM0

Dorsanty wrote: »

...it is also well known that Ferrari have essentially stopped all work on this years car knowning full well it is a waste of time and money. They believe they should be able to secure 3rd place with the current model and couldn't do much better if they threw X million euros at the car. I agree with the choice myself.

something which appears to be lost on yourself (and indeed ferrari :pac:) is that this years car essentially IS next years car..what you develop this year will go to good use for next years car!

Which is why Everyone else are still throwing money at this seasons car
:cool:

Iron Hide

me@ucd wrote: »

something which appears to be lost on yourself (and indeed ferrari :pac:) is that this years car essentially IS next years car..what you develop this year will go to good use for next years car!

Which is why Everyone else are still throwing money at this seasons car
:cool:

Damn straight, doubtful there'll be another major rule shakeup like there was at the start of this year..

cadaliac

I agree and think that the right people @ Ferrari will make work again.
Remember one very important thing though, without Shumacher, they would not have made it in the recent years to the dizzy heights of multiple, back to back manufacturer champions.
He developed the team and car. The same way Alonso developed Renault and went on to win a WC.
Of course all the right ingredients have to be there in the first place, i.e. good management team, good engineering team etc.
Right now, I don't know if the successor to Jean Todd (can't think of his name) is the right stuff or not. Pit lane blunders, wrong tyre choices and silly pit stop strategies.
I also think, while I love Kimi, I just don't think he brought anything to Ferrari that any other fast driver could have brought. As much as I like to see him drive (when he drives well) he is beginning to sicken my ass with his attitude. I used to love his attitude, but now I seem to be growing tired of the failures and the last, end of the season attempts to try and make up for the lost time in the season gone by. While I do believe that he is hugely talented, I don't think he would have developed the car or team the way Alonso will.
I hope that I am right on this, but I think Alonso will be like a breath of fresh air in the team and he will take this challange with both hands and wring the very best out of the Ferrari. I really hope he does.
Here's hoping.....

amacachi

Even without major rule changes it's obvious (they seem to think) that the car is in some way fundamentally flawed.

EvilMonkey

me@ucd wrote: »

something which appears to be lost on yourself (and indeed ferrari :pac:) is that this years car essentially IS next years car..what you develop this year will go to good use for next years car!

Which is why Everyone else are still throwing money at this seasons car
:cool:

I'm sure Ferrari are aware what the cars will be like. Next year the cars will be significantly heaver, longer, have smaller front wheels and a possible ban on wheel faring which have a significant impact on aero. Also Ferrari will be ditching KERS next year so im guessing there will be a big difference between this years Ferrari and next years.

Everyone is throwing money at this years car because they need the money for their position in the constructors championship, had Massa not had his accident Ferrari would have 3rd spot sown up by now.

@Slutmonkey57b It swings both ways, those same engineers that have improved the McLaren are the same ones that built a dog of a car in the first place. Any team loosing quality such as the key 4 as you call them would suffer. I don't think they have done too badly they have won 1 drivers championship narrowly missed out on another, 2 constructors and a 3/4 spot this year.

Slutmonkey57b

I think the big problem for ferrari with this year's car is their Kers. For some reason they integrated it next to the fuel cell (or something) which raises the car's centre of gravity. I think as a result they get less useful results out of testing this year's parts for next year's car.

Slutmonkey57b

I agree with the posters that Ferrari is by no means a dog of a team, but the thread is specifically about their future, not the past form. I think Domenicali is doing ok, the team is doing ok, but based on some of the decisions they've made, and Luca's attitude, I think they're heading for big trouble over the next few years. Alonso may mitigate that, but he couldn't do anything for Renault the past 2 years...

amacachi

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I agree with the posters that Ferrari is by no means a dog of a team, but the thread is specifically about their future, not the past form. I think Domenicali is doing ok, the team is doing ok, but based on some of the decisions they've made, and Luca's attitude, I think they're heading for big trouble over the next few years. Alonso may mitigate that, but he couldn't do anything for Renault the past 2 years...

Towards the end of last year he made progress with Renault, fair enough the win in Singapore has been tainted but the car was very quick for the last few races.

I don't see any massive trouble ahead really, had Alonso signed a shorter contract they would've been even more on their game I'd guess.

Dorsanty

me@ucd wrote: »

something which appears to be lost on yourself (and indeed ferrari :pac:) is that this years car essentially IS next years car..what you develop this year will go to good use for next years car!

Which is why Everyone else are still throwing money at this seasons car
:cool:

You aren't suggesting that Ferrari's 2009 KERS using car will be the same car next year are you? KERS is gone in 2010 by agreement at the FOTA level and I'm fairly sure Ferrari will be taking up the option to remove it. This means the space made in the car for it will be available for other things. That will mean significant changes to the overall package, once you design a car never to include KERS you know how to best distribute the weight and I'm sure make a load more better design choices.

For those not running KERS this year, yeah keep working on this years car and take it into next year...go them.

Edit: It seems EvilMonkey made the same point as me...oh well...read all posts before posting...lesson learned

EvilMonkey

Ferrari's future

Frank Bullitt

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Ferrari's future

In fairness,we get this nearly every year,Luca loves making a people think that Ferrari might hit the road,when its very much in their interest to stay in F1.

EvilMonkey

Gintonious wrote: »

In fairness,we get this nearly every year,Luca loves making a people think that Ferrari might hit the road,when its very much in their interest to stay in F1.

Ha, I know I just thought it was suited to this thread :pac:
Is it a coincidence that he is not getting his way over running a 3rd car, I don't think Ferrari are going anywhere.

amacachi

Yeah, it's not as if they threaten this all the time to get themselves a better deal than the other teams.