PGDE: When will the state insist upon it in schools?

Dionysus

Just reading the other thread on subbing by maynoothrules in despair. It defies belief that universities across this state, which are funded by the Department of Education, are making millions from running the PGDE while schools funded by the same Department of Education are wilfully hiring people without that teaching qualification over people with the PGDE.

What is stopping the Department of Education from finally instructing all schools that they must employ people with a PGDE? There are thousands of unemployed teachers with a PGDE who are being denied jobs in favour of people without the state-supported teaching qualification.

It makes a complete mockery of the present set-up. Either the PGDE is this state's professional secondary school teaching qualification or it is not. It is wrong that people are paying a fortune for this teaching qualification while people who refused to spend the time and money on it get the job first. And this situation is supported by this state.

Why is this situation continuing? Why is it not insisted upon by the Department that every teacher in Irish schools holds a teacher qualification (as well as a full degree) in the subject they are teaching? Don't say the teachers don't exist: they do

Despite thousands of qualified teachers, the cowboys of Irish teaching, it seems, are still triumphing over the qualified of Irish teaching.

trebormurf

And we pay 90e to the wonderful Teaching Council to be recognised as "qualified teachers". Yet still, unqualifed people work in schools and I pick up the dole every week and struggle to pay the loan I took out to complete the PGDE. Jokeshop!!!

maynooth_rules

Well said. You have probably read my thread where I have voiced my anger in being overlooked for subbing hours in my school for an unqualified teacher. Really angers me but does not surprise me in anyway in this country. I'm beginning to question why i spent 6 grand on that horrible horrible PGDE

evolving_doors

As far as I know teaching is the only job in Ireland where the employer doesn't pay the employee...

Basically if the school (who is the employer) needs a teacher they can get any joe shmo off the street to teach whatever the school wants...

The only thing the Dept of education does is sign off on the wages..

Although as much as I detest the teaching council it seems as if things are about to change with the garda vetting and qualifications requirements

peanuthead

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Well said. You have probably read my thread where I have voiced my anger in being overlooked for subbing hours in my school for an unqualified teacher. Really angers me but does not surprise me in anyway in this country. I'm beginning to question why i spent 6 grand on that horrible horrible PGDE

This is not me criticising you - I'm criticising your school here so bear with me.

I find this really strange that the unqualified teacher would be favoured for hours over you for subbing, because unqualified teachers are actually paid a higher hourly rate than full time/part time/any kind of a contract!

So I wonder what the school's reason is for doing that?

evolving_doors

correct me if im wrong.... but whatever the cost of the substitution (be it a qualified or an unqualified sub) the dept. picks up the tab and not the school...so the school doesn't really 'save' any money as such...

From what i've experienced if a school wants you they'll keep you on by throwing the hours your way...and if they dont then you'll probably find yourself being gently nudged out with less and less hours.. The only thing Maynooth_rules can do is sweat it out till this other 'teacher' decides to leave to finish his degree/hdip and his hours should be up again...maybe consider upskilling further to stay ahead of the competition..
Also if your only position in the school is as a sub (i.e. not permanent) then lets face it..you're not really entitled to anything except what the school gives you...You'd want to be pretty sure of the other teachers qualifications (or lack thereof) before you bring a case to a union..

gaeilgegrinds

Can you be a member of the union as a sub? Just wondering.

spurious

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

Can you be a member of the union as a sub? Just wondering.

Yes - at least in TUI, can't speak for ASTI or INTO. There is full or EPT membership and also a Part-time option.
If you're still training, the TUI have an Associate membership option, which it's possible the other unions have too.

evolving_doors

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

Can you be a member of the union as a sub? Just wondering.

Your money is always welcome....

http://www.asti.ie/asti-membership/join-asti/

Part-Time Contract (Not PRC or RPT) e.g. substitute teacher
€51.40
Student Member (H.Dip Ed Student or final year in teacher college)
€0

dogbert27

Just wondering if I'm reading this right:

To become a fully qualified secondary teacher you:
a) DO a 3-4 year degree (Am I right in thinking you need at minimum of 2:1 to progress to teaching?)
b) Pay €6000 to do a 1 year PGDE course
c) Pay €90 to the teachers council to be recognised as fully qualified
d) You're not guarunteed a job at the end of it?!

Why bother at all?

givyjoe81

dogbert27 wrote: »

Just wondering if I'm reading this right:

To become a fully qualified secondary teacher you:
a) DO a 3-4 year degree (Am I right in thinking you need at minimum of 2:1 to progress to teaching?)
b) Pay €6000 to do a 1 year PGDE course
c) Pay €90 to the teachers council to be recognised as fully qualified
d) You're not guarunteed a job at the end of it?!

Why bother at all?

Why on earth should you be 'guaranteed' a job at the end of it?!

pathway33

dogbert27 wrote: »

Am I right in thinking you need at minimum of 2:1 to progress to teaching?

You'd need about 65% to get straight into the PGDE based on the points system. If you get say 55% you can get in with a Masters (if you can get into a masters with a 2:2).

You also used to be able to get into the PGDE with 2:2 degree if you had lots of teaching hours.

The points systems is changing for entry in 2010 and will disregard teaching hours thereafter.

This is how they calculate the points here http://www.pac.ie/pgdeinfo/PointsCalc.php?inst=pe

Of course you can go the interview route through Trinity College, DCU or UL, but competition is stiff so you'd probably certainly need a high 2:2 along with other personal qualities.

NOTE: Personal qualities are not tested via the points system.

dogbert27

Ok fair point on the guaranteed bit but you should at least be entering a level playing field if you go to the trouble of becoming a qualified teacher by first investing the time in your degree to get a 2:1 and then you do this PGDE course that you spend €6000 on and after that you get your qualifications approved by the teachers council for €90.
But after you've jumped through all these hoops you come out the other end and find that there are hardly any full time positions available and that for subbing hours you're competing against so called unqualified teachers.
That's why I wonder why you would bother.

givyjoe81

dogbert27 wrote: »

Ok fair point on the guaranteed bit but you should at least be entering a level playing field if you go to the trouble of becoming a qualified teacher by first investing the time in your degree to get a 2:1 and then you do this PGDE course that you spend €6000 on and after that you get your qualifications approved by the teachers council for €90.
But after you've jumped through all these hoops you come out the other end and find that there are hardly any full time positions available and that for subbing hours you're competing against so called unqualified teachers.
That's why I wonder why you would bother.

Well because, once you do finally secure a permanent position, you pretty much have a guaranteed, well paid job for life!

Nead21

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Well because, once you do finally secure a permanent position, you pretty much have a guaranteed, well paid job for life!

after how long of signing on the dole for every midterm break and summer when you dont have a contract.

i know some teachers who have been teaching for the past 9 or 10 years and they havent been made permanent.

and why shouldnt you be entitled to a well paid job? you are working hard like everyone else....should you be working for free??

i think the point the previous poster is making is what is the point in being a qualified teacher, and when schools keep hiring unqualified people, which ultimately serves to diminish the profession.

givyjoe81

Nead21 wrote: »

after how long of signing on the dole for every midterm break and summer when you dont have a contract.

i know some teachers who have been teaching for the past 9 or 10 years and they havent been made permanent.

and why shouldnt you be entitled to a well paid job? you are working hard like everyone else....should you be working for free??

i think the point the previous poster is making is what is the point in being a qualified teacher, and when schools keep hiring unqualified people, which ultimately serves to diminish the profession.

Come off it now, anecdotal personal stories mean nothing, mine included. 9 Years, perhaps its time to give up the ghost of teaching, really after so long not being able to secure a position, the person would really have to look at themeselves rather than something external at this stage.

My own friend from school secured a permanent position after just one year.. same with a friend of a friend and these are the only two teachers i know! Schools are going to employ people they feel are the best candidates for the job, and i stand to correction but i have seen numerous threads state that a lack of PGDE does NOT make you unqualified to teach.

As for diminishing the profession, i would strongly argue the attitudes of 'entitlement' to a position, the second a teacher qualifies would do much more to 'harm' the profession, in my opinion such an attitude breeds complacency and results in a lowering of standards, 'well im in now, dont have to try so hard', something which many of my former teachers displayed unfortunately. Working hard in having to secure a permanent position is only a good thing on balance, particularly in the unique profession of teaching. It hopefully will instill a good work ethic in us all that we are indeed in a privileged profession and it should not be taken for granted.

As for signing on the dole in the summer, well come on now, that is more than made up for, again when securing a permanent position. Very generous holidays all paid for.

Tigerandahalf

It must be very frustrating when you go and get your qualifications, pay your fees and get registered with the Teaching Council, only to come up against the hiring system in schools. It is well known that many people get their jobs in schools through pull...priests, bom, etc. The system is rife with it. It does make a mockery of the system.
I think the system needs to be changed where you get credits based on your teaching qualification. The better your qualifications the more points you would get. This would in turn raise academic standards and thus should raise teaching standards in schools.
It easy to see how the country is in a mess. We're paying the price for our cronyism and nepotism...the nod nod, wink wink system that operates in Ireland from politics right down to teacher appointment in schools.
Having unqualified people in schools is simply unacceptable, it makes a mockery of teaching as a profession. It saves money for our cheap skate governments who want a top class education system but are not willing to pay for one.

Dionysus

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

It must be very frustrating when you go and get your qualifications, pay your fees and get registered with the Teaching Council, only to come up against the hiring system in schools. It is well known that many people get their jobs in schools through pull...priests, bom, etc. The system is rife with it. It does make a mockery of the system.
I think the system needs to be changed where you get credits based on your teaching qualification. The better your qualifications the more points you would get. This would in turn raise academic standards and thus should raise teaching standards in schools.
It easy to see how the country is in a mess. We're paying the price for our cronyism and nepotism...the nod nod, wink wink system that operates in Ireland from politics right down to teacher appointment in schools.
Having unqualified people in schools is simply unacceptable, it makes a mockery of teaching as a profession. It saves money for our cheap skate governments who want a top class education system but are not willing to pay for one.

I couldn't agree more. I'm back a few hours from a very, very informative lecture by Máirín Barry, as part of the Special Education Needs section of our PGDE (in UCD). The amount of detail she had about how to approach, motivate and manage kids with autism, aspergers etc that would not be "common knowledge" was invaluable. It opened up a deeper level of awareness in me of the diversity which can be in classes and will guide me in my teaching techniques.

I just don't know how any person who has not done the PGDE or some similar qualification can have the awareness to do justice to kids who fall within ASD (Autistic Spectrum Disorder).

Usually I find lectures boring. I am really glad that I went today.

Dionysus

Just for the record, the fee for doing the PGDE in UCD this year, 2009-2010, is €6,530.

There are 238 students registered on the course this year. If any of these student are from outside the EU their fees are over €13,000.


In short, the PGDE is a very, very, very nice little earner for Irish universities. Furthermore, the Irish state is clearly very happy that they do not have to subvent the universities in question by the millions which they are raising through running their respective PGDEs. Fair enough.

What is neither fair nor comprehensible is why the minimium quid pro quo of this situation is that the state is not passing legislation to ensure that every single person teaching within the education system in the state of Ireland has the minimium qualification of a PGDE. Does anybody know the politics behind this? What is the position of the unions on it?

It is wrong that thousands of Irish students are paying this huge money for a state-sanctioned teaching qualification while other people continue to be employed as teachers in the Irish education system without this.

Nead21

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Schools are going to employ people they feel are the best candidates for the job, and i stand to correction but i have seen numerous threads state that a lack of PGDE does NOT make you unqualified to teach.

As for diminishing the profession, i would strongly argue the attitudes of 'entitlement' to a position, the second a teacher qualifies would do much more to 'harm' the profession, in my opinion such an attitude breeds complacency and results in a lowering of standards, 'well im in now, dont have to try so hard', something which many of my former teachers displayed unfortunately. Working hard in having to secure a permanent position is only a good thing on balance, particularly in the unique profession of teaching. It hopefully will instill a good work ethic in us all that we are indeed in a privileged profession and it should not be taken for granted.

As for signing on the dole in the summer, well come on now, that is more than made up for, again when securing a permanent position. Very generous holidays all paid for.

surely the best candidates for schools to employ are actually qualified teachers, and not unqualified subs who just skip through the proper channels of applications and interview processes. a PGDE trains you to be a teacher...if you dont have this you are unqualified. end of story!

i think you've misread my previous post tbh. i was not saying that when you qualify as a teacher, you should be automatically entitled to a permanent position. i was referring you your comment about a well paid job for life. if you were a teacher you would realise that permanent positions in secondary schools are like hen's teeth!

as for signing on the dole...come off it nothing, unless you have a contract, contrary to popular, miseducated, belief, you do have to sign on the dole during holidays.
yes if you are permanent or do have a contract, you get long holidays, but then again that old chestnut is used against teachers all the time, particularly by those who dont really understand the job themselves.

evolving_doors

Govt just pays the wages..

the school is the employer ....

Only in Ireland...

The govt are happy to wash their hands of any nitty gritty day to day runnings... as proof of this 'arms lenght' approach they set up the teachers council to fumble around with it..god forbid someone in the gov would take a decision in case they'd lose some bloody votes back in ballydeparishpump..grrrr....

givyjoe81

Nead21 wrote: »

surely the best candidates for schools to employ are actually qualified teachers, and not unqualified subs who just skip through the proper channels of applications and interview processes. a PGDE trains you to be a teacher...if you dont have this you are unqualified. end of story!

Again, this is simply not the case. Not having a PGDE does not make you 'unqualified'. A particularly good post on the inservice thread about why 'unqualified' individuals are chosen over PGDE holders, and despite what so many on here seem to believe, its not down to some conspiracy to screw over 'qualified' teachers.

Nead21

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Again, this is simply not the case. Not having a PGDE does not make you 'unqualified'. A particularly good post on the inservice thread about why 'unqualified' individuals are chosen over PGDE holders, and despite what so many on here seem to believe, its not down to some conspiracy to screw over 'qualified' teachers.

it does make you unqualified in the sense that if they are going through the proper channels of interview, they would not get a job over a candidate who is fully trained.

however, they are being hired by schools to do some subbing hours and then are taken on the cover classes over longer periods of time, when they are still many qualified teachers out there who are looking for work and would be delighted to have a couple of weeks/months work.

i certainly dont believe that this is some 'conspiracy theory' as you put it, but whatever way you look at it, its very wrong.

Hillel

Nead21 wrote: »

it does make you unqualified in the sense that if they are going through the proper channels of interview, they would not get a job over a candidate who is fully trained.

however, they are being hired by schools to do some subbing hours and then are taken on the cover classes over longer periods of time, when they are still many qualified teachers out there who are looking for work and would be delighted to have a couple of weeks/months work.

i certainly dont believe that this is some 'conspiracy theory' as you put it, but whatever way you look at it, its very wrong.

First let me state that I have sympathy for teachers who, having studied for the PGDE, find themselves without a permanent post/job. (I am fortunate, in that I have never been in that position, though my children are not so lucky!) I also believe that beginners in every profession, need additional development, following their primary degree. In the case of teaching that includes the PGDE and ongoing mentoring in their formative years as a teacher.

However, you knew that was coming, didn't you, the position is not black and white. Many teachers without the PGDE have proved their worth in the classroom and it would hardly be fair if they were to be turfed out now. In many cases these teachers filled a need when some teaching positions were extremely difficult to fill.

In my profession, engineering, the requirements to be registered have tightened tremendeously over the years. At each stage, those already working in the profession had the opportunity to register onder the "old" regime, but only for a limited period. In my view that would be an appropriate approach to the PGDE, also.

implausible

Armelodie wrote: »

Govt just pays the wages..

the school is the employer ....

Only in Ireland...

Is this true? I presumed that this was the way it worked everywhere, except in fee-paying private schools (but of course, in Ireland, the government pays the wages in these schools too).

Nead21

Hillel wrote: »

However, you knew that was coming, didn't you, the position is not black and white. Many teachers without the PGDE have proved their worth in the classroom and it would hardly be fair if they were to be turfed out now. In many cases these teachers filled a need when some teaching positions were extremely difficult to fill.

i completely understand that there are beginners in every profession (i wasnt always a teacher). i expected that the first years of teaching were going to be difficult with regards securing position, and knew i was going to be competing with many others in the same position, and many others with much more experience in the profession than i do.

i agree that there are many teachers who have proven their worth, without gaining a teaching qualification, and also agree that they shouldnt just be turfed out of their jobs just because there is new teachers on the scene. the only thing that i have a problem with is when people are not hired the same way. its not right that some people can just be hired by the schools having not been interviewed like other applicants.

dory

Hillel wrote: »

In my profession, engineering, the requirements to be registered have tightened tremendeously over the years. At each stage, those already working in the profession had the opportunity to register onder the "old" regime, but only for a limited period. In my view that would be an appropriate approach to the PGDE, also.

DCU is now catering for this need. They have a two-year part time post grad that is aimed at people who are working but without a PGDE. So there is soon going to be very little need for people to be without one.

Although, until legislation is changed, people may find it unnecessary. I have heard of many, many people who were teaching, went back to do the 'Dip' and then came out and could not find a job. :rolleyes:

Síle28

God how depressing for someone who gave up a job abroad, came home to do the PGDE, doing it now, which btw is a LOT of hard (unpaid) work and putting myself into at least €7k debt in doing so...watching every cent as although I have no source of income I don't qualify for any type of grant...Someone shoot me now!:eek:

Hillel

Nead21 wrote: »

i completely understand that there are beginners in every profession (i wasnt always a teacher). i expected that the first years of teaching were going to be difficult with regards securing position, and knew i was going to be competing with many others in the same position, and many others with much more experience in the profession than i do.

A big issue is the number of temporary teachers in schools, for a variety of reasons. It's a trend that happening everywhere and one I strongly disagree with. However, given that it is happening, I agree that it should be far more tightly controlled.

marblesolutions

In my school this year there are 7 teachers on part time hours yet an unqualified and I mean unqualified, he does not hold any qualifications including a leaving cert , is picking up all the subbing hours. Where oh where is the justice in that .
The teachers in question can't even get on the S&S rota but the care taker is on it !!!!!. This my friends is a fact and it makes my blood boil, but nobody seems able or willing to do anything about it

spurious

marblesolutions wrote: »

In my school this year there are 7 teachers on part time hours yet an unqualified and I mean unqualified, he does not hold any qualifications including a leaving cert , is picking up all the subbing hours. Where oh where is the justice in that .
The teachers in question can't even get on the S&S rota but the care taker is on it !!!!!. This my friends is a fact and it makes my blood boil, but nobody seems able or willing to do anything about it

Has anyone taken it to the union?

marblesolutions

Union rep in our school worse than useless. Our school prefer the passive route, apparently !!!! Staff just to nervous to go against principal. The staff in question terrified of not getting hours next year. The whole situtation is very unfair.