Deer Stalking

Caoimhín

I have a genuine question here, I read in some of the papers today that Minister Gormley wants to ban deer stalking.
Now, I dont own a gun and I would never even contemplate shooting an animal, however, I do have a basic understanding of ecology and wildlife.

So, how would Minister Gormley (and others who support this view) suggest the deer population be kept in check if stalking and shooting were banned?

Personally I think that in the absence of natural predators, our ancestors having killed all the wolves, that shooting is a necessary evil all the more so with the abundance of introduced deer species.

What are the alternatives?

samson09

Caoimhín wrote: »

I have a genuine question here, I read in some of the papers today that Minister Gormley wants to ban deer stalking.
Now, I dont own a gun and I would never even contemplate shooting an animal, however, I do have a basic understanding of ecology and wildlife.

So, how would Minister Gormley (and others who support this view) suggest the deer population be kept in check if stalking and shooting were banned?

Personally I think that in the absence of natural predators, our ancestors having killed all the wolves, that shooting is a necessary evil all the more so with the abundance of introduced deer species.

What are the alternatives?

It'll never happen, not in Ireland anyway. There'd be too much of an uproar about it. Do you know if he was talking about a total ban or a ban for the general public which would allow people from the NPWS to look after the culling?

I wouldnt necessarily consider shooting as evil, most seasoned stalkers only need one bullet to bring down an animal and it's a lot more humane than poisoning (which would seem to be the only viable alternative if shooting was banned completely).

Grizzly 45

Think it was more a misprint and some over zelous greenie or journalist got it mixed up with carted deer hunting.. Anyways,very doubtful that NPWS could handle it,as they are short staffed,deer pouplations here are at epidemic levels due to mismanagement for decades by various semi state bodies,and hence the reason Coilte leases out shooting lets to hunters.

Macha

Caoimhín wrote: »

Personally I think that in the absence of natural predators, our ancestors having killed all the wolves, that shooting is a necessary evil all the more so with the abundance of introduced deer species.

What are the alternatives?

You're right about the lack of natural predators to deer (apart from humans, of course) but there are issues with hunting licenses.

When hunting, wolves and other predators attack the young, old or sick in a herd of deer. This serves to keep the wolf fed, the numbers of the deer down but importantly, it also keeps the herd fit and healthy - survival of the fittest.

Hunters tend to go for the larger, stronger deer in the herd - the ones with the biggest antlers, etc. So while hunting keeps deer numbers down, it does the opposite of natural predators and can actually make the herds very unfit and very unhealthy, as a whole.

CJhaughey

taconnol wrote: »

Hunters tend to go for the larger, stronger deer in the herd - the ones with the biggest antlers, etc. So while hunting keeps deer numbers down, it does the opposite of natural predators and can actually make the herds very unfit and very unhealthy, as a whole.

I can't agree here, as a hunter, I would be very concious of not taking too many stags, Most hunters have a pretty good idea of what they are shooting and believe it or not most hunters are quite ethical in what they shoot.
Admittedly there are exceptions and some will tend to chase Trophy heads but many hunt for the pot and will take Hinds instead of Stags.
I don't see many unhealthy/unfit deer probably because they are at epidemic levels and the population is so large.

Caoimhín

taconnol wrote: »

You're right about the lack of natural predators to deer (apart from humans, of course) but there are issues with hunting licenses.

When hunting, wolves and other predators attack the young, old or sick in a herd of deer. This serves to keep the wolf fed, the numbers of the deer down but importantly, it also keeps the herd fit and healthy - survival of the fittest.

Hunters tend to go for the larger, stronger deer in the herd - the ones with the biggest antlers, etc. So while hunting keeps deer numbers down, it does the opposite of natural predators and can actually make the herds very unfit and very unhealthy, as a whole.

OK, well that may be, but what is the alternative?

Simply banning something without any alternative solution would only make the population problem worse and drive the hunting community underground.

It is beginning to sound like bad legislation based on personal ethical values.

Macha

CJhaughey wrote: »

I can't agree here, as a hunter, I would be very concious of not taking too many stags, Most hunters have a pretty good idea of what they are shooting and believe it or not most hunters are quite ethical in what they shoot.
Admittedly there are exceptions and some will tend to chase Trophy heads but many hunt for the pot and will take Hinds instead of Stags.
I don't see many unhealthy/unfit deer probably because they are at epidemic levels and the population is so large.

I agree with what you say but the reality is there is no control over what a hunter decides to kill saving their own conscience. It is a problem that the large stags are hunted, leaving the females and having little impact on population size. This has been pointed out by Pat Scully.

Also, while I agree that the large deer population is causing problems, I think the phrase "epidemic levels" is a little over the top.

Edit: Caoimhin, I'm not sure what the solution is - I'm just pointing out that there are problems with the hunting licences. Personally I favour the re-introduction of wolves :pac:

CJhaughey

taconnol wrote: »

Also, while I agree that the large deer population is causing problems, I think the phrase "epidemic levels" is a little over the top.

Edit: Caoimhin, I'm not sure what the solution is - I'm just pointing out that there are problems with the hunting licences. Personally I favour the re-introduction of wolves :pac:

I think the term epidemic levels is justified, There has been a massive population increase in deer numbers and the problem is getting worse every year.
There are simply not enough deer shot every year to control the pop.
I know many farmers who have attempted to plant broadleaf forestry and the trees don't last any time at all before they are destroyed by deer.
Most people will only see a deer in their headlights if at all, but you take a walk around any forestry anywhere in Ireland this time of the year, especially in the evenings you will hear lots.

I don't agree that there are problems with Hunting licenses, more that there is no real effective management plan in place to control deer numbers.
Typical of this countries attitude to management:rolleyes:
I would like to see wolves re-introduced but I somehow doubt it will ever happen here.

BTW, Pat Scully would have a vested interest in People having to do a Mandatory HCAP course through the WDAI.

Caoimhín

taconnol wrote: »

Personally I favour the re-introduction of wolves :pac:

I have no problem with that, as long as you equip us foresters with hand guns

The_Minister

taconnol wrote: »

You're right about the lack of natural predators to deer (apart from humans, of course) but there are issues with hunting licenses.

When hunting, wolves and other predators attack the young, old or sick in a herd of deer. This serves to keep the wolf fed, the numbers of the deer down but importantly, it also keeps the herd fit and healthy - survival of the fittest.

Hunters tend to go for the larger, stronger deer in the herd - the ones with the biggest antlers, etc. So while hunting keeps deer numbers down, it does the opposite of natural predators and can actually make the herds very unfit and very unhealthy, as a whole.

Just for reference, I started a thread in the shooting forum on that point.

Macha

The_Minister wrote: »

Just for reference, I started a thread in the shooting forum on that point.

OK thanks I'll read up on it.

CJhaughey wrote: »

I think the term epidemic levels is justified, There has been a massive population increase in deer numbers and the problem is getting worse every year.

Fair enough. This isn't my area of expertise at all. Do you have any stats?

CJhaughey wrote: »

I don't agree that there are problems with Hunting licenses, more that there is no real effective management plan in place to control deer numbers.
Typical of this countries attitude to management :rolleyes:

So what elements of an effective management plan would you like to see put in place?

CJhaughey wrote: »

BTW, Pat Scully would have a vested interest in People having to do a Mandatory HCAP course through the WDAI.

I don't think it's fair to dismiss his comments as 'vested interest', when other experts in the area have identified issues with hunting licenses.