Irish Front Row without Hayes

ch2008

A little premature I admit, but if Hayes is taken out of the AI's then its a good time to answer the question thats been worrying every Irish fan for a few years now. How do we cope without him and who do we pick?

Note: This is not meant to be a thread about the incident at the RDS

dan719

He won't be taken out of the AIs. The IRFU won't shoot themselves in the foot like that.

ch2008

dan719 wrote: »

He won't be taken out of the AIs. The IRFU won't shoot themselves in the foot like that.

Again, its not a thread about the incident or whether he'll get banned. Its a thread about how we will cope without him if and when it happens

dan719

Sorry I wasn't trying to drag the thread OT. I was simply questioning whether or not it would happen.

Risteard

In a word: Badly.

Right now Buckley is the only real replacement and we know about his scrummaging capabilities. If Mike Ross can force his way into the Leinster team then he'd be worth a shot but I can't see him overtaking Stan Wright.

There's Court as well but he's primarily a looshead.

ch2008

Remember when Mick Galway was winding up his career? They'd leave him out, we'd be terrible for a few games, they'd bring him back and we'd perform again. It seemed to go on for an eternity. Hopefully we have a bit more strength in depth now but its gonna be hard to replace him

Sangre

Anyone except Tony 'Mushy' Buckley.

Risteard

Hopefully Tim Ryan will pick up a few things in Toulon and come back. I think he's our future tighthead.

ch2008

Risteard wrote: »

In a word: Badly.

If Mike Ross can force his way into the Leinster team then he'd be worth a shot but I can't see him overtaking Stan Wright.

Strange to see Mike Ross highlighted as Leinsters "awesome player" in the H-Cup team summaries. In a team of great players its an odd decision to say the least. Then again, Stephen Jones wrote it...

Depp

im gonna laugh when mushy proves you all wrong

ch2008

Depp wrote: »

im gonna laugh when mushy proves you all wrong

I've never been his biggest fan but did read his interview the other day. Apparently he had glandular fever for most of last season without knowing, hence his below par performances

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/buckley-bouncing-back-from-the-lowest-of-the-low-102087.html

In saying that, he's 29 and has had plenty of time to prove everyone wrong.

Risteard

I'll be delighted if Mushy proves me wrong. But he's not a great scrummager, if he was then he'd be class. Though to be honest a scrum coach is badly needed in Munster and one could make a big difference to him.

sock puppet

ch2008 wrote: »

I've never been his biggest fan but did read his interview the other day. Apparently he had glandular fever for most of last season without knowing, hence his below par performances

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/buckley-bouncing-back-from-the-lowest-of-the-low-102087.html

In saying that, he's 29 and has had plenty of time to prove everyone wrong.

His performances this season have been pretty poor too. In saying that he's the only Irish tighthead to have gotten much gametime this season so he's surely the front runner if Hayes does get banned.

tHE vAGGABOND

In saying that, he's 29 and has had plenty of time to prove everyone wrong.

that's it, he has been a brilliant up and coming young player for about 10 years now

What he badly needed a couple of seasons ago was to be playing week in and week out, be that for Munster or for someone else..

A great example is that several good scrum halves have left Munster to get game time down the years. One of them won a couple of european cups with Wasps and was my man of the match last night

But on topic, we are in trouble without Hayes. There is no one putting their hand up to replace him, short term or long term tbh.

Depp

how can you say mushy is bad? sure, his scrummaging is not his best asset but have you seen his open play??? Unmoveable in rucks and mauls, any time he gets the ball in open play he gets it over the gain line.

Risteard

Depp wrote: »

how can you say mushy is bad? sure, his scrummaging is not his best asset but have you seen his open play??? Unmoveable in rucks and mauls, any time he gets the ball in open play he gets it over the gain line.

That's the problem. Everyone speaks about his open play and his counter-rucking which are top class, I know that, I love watching Mushy hit rucks and shove people out of his way like they're nothing. But scrummaging is a prop's job first and foremost.

It's like having a fullback that can carve through defences, punt the ball 60m and have it land on a coin, but can't catch a garryowen to save his life.

Each position has a fundamental role to play in rugby, Hooker it's throwing, scrum-half it's passing and prop it's scrummaging.

The old saying goes 'forwards decide who wins matches, backs by how much.' This is because of the set pieces, if you don't have a solid scrum in the modern game, it's like playing with one hand behind your back.

chupacabra

Depp wrote: »

how can you say mushy is bad? sure, his scrummaging is not his best asset but have you seen his open play??? Unmoveable in rucks and mauls, any time he gets the ball in open play he gets it over the gain line.

:rolleyes: We have a backrow for that. A props primary concern should be his scrummaging, not least a tight head. With the likes of Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip, Healy, Flannery and POC around we are no short of immense ball carriers not to mention the likes of SOB, Henry, Caldwell, Cronin and Jennings just waiting to get their chance. I used to be a strong proponent for Buckley, and i said numerous times in this forum that he would prove us all wrong, but it doesn't look like he is going to do that. He is too slow and lazy and his scrummaging isn't "not his best asset" its his absolute worst, and thats unacceptable at international level for a player his age. He may very well get selected for the AI's and he may very well start every game if Hayes gets a ban, or in the future when Hayes retires, but he is not the answer.

I think if Brett Wilkinson moved to tight head we would have a viable option, Court isn't up to much but in a crisis he wouldn't be the worst selection. I think it was a HUGE mistake letting Tim Ryan go to Toulon this year, but we still have to likes of Jamie Hagan, Jack McGrath and Paddy McAllister making strides at their respective level.

SpAcEd OuT

Depp wrote: »

how can you say mushy is bad? sure, his scrummaging is not his best asset but have you seen his open play??? Unmoveable in rucks and mauls, any time he gets the ball in open play he gets it over the gain line.

But the primary concern of a front row is to be able to competently scrummage.

Risteard

chupacabra wrote: »

I think it was a HUGE mistake letting Tim Ryan go to Toulon this year,.

I'm actually not entirely sure about that. There was an interview with him a couple of weeks ago where he said they had a 90 minute scrummaging session. The french still place importance on the scrum and I think he'll learn a lot down there as opposed to staying in Munster.

SpAcEd OuT

Risteard wrote: »

I'm actually not entirely sure about that. There was an interview with him a couple of weeks ago where he said they had a 90 minute scrummaging session. The french still place importance on the scrum and I think he'll learn a lot down there as opposed to staying in Munster.

I think he means on Munster's part. For Ryan personally I am sure it was absolutely the correct move. I don't think it is all as gloomy as people make out in the front row position with the likes of Wilkinson, Hagan, McGrath, Ryan, Hurley still to come through and of course then theres the already established Cian Healy.

gcgirl

Can we not just keep cloning The Bull?? if they can do it with dolly the sheep anything is possible!

gcgirl

DP and no it does not mean what you think it means damm computer!!

[Jackass]

You seem to have fairly good cloning capabilities yourself

Ciaran-Irl

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

I think he means on Munster's part. For Ryan personally I am sure it was absolutely the correct move. I don't think it is all as gloomy as people make out in the front row position with the likes of Wilkinson, Hagan, McGrath, Ryan, Hurley still to come through and of course then theres the already established Cian Healy.

So it is good for Ireland, no? If we are stuck on Tightheads, why should we care that he plays in France? England are stuck for outhalfs. Do you think they will hesitate to select Mr. J. Wilkinson?

I think it is great news that Ryan is playing at a club where scrummaging is treated with respect and where they have a scrum coach. He would be wasted at Munster. This thread is about Ireland.

MG

Risteard wrote: »

I'm actually not entirely sure about that. There was an interview with him a couple of weeks ago where he said they had a 90 minute scrummaging session. The french still place importance on the scrum and I think he'll learn a lot down there as opposed to staying in Munster.

Any update on how Timmy is getting on - is he getting game time?

bamboozle

MG wrote: »

Any update on how Timmy is getting on - is he getting game time?

i saw him play a few times for Con last season didnt stand out.
Buckley is not the answer.
Ross or Court have to get a look in, as said by other a prop's primary role is to scrumage Buckley is unable to scrummage above AIL level unfortunately.

SpAcEd OuT

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

So it is good for Ireland, no? If we are stuck on Tightheads, why should we care that he plays in France? England are stuck for outhalfs. Do you think they will hesitate to select Mr. J. Wilkinson?

I think it is great news that Ryan is playing at a club where scrummaging is treated with respect and where they have a scrum coach. He would be wasted at Munster. This thread is about Ireland.

Where did I say it is not good for Ireland? I think its great that he is plying his trade in the super 14 and think it will benefit him (and Ireland)

PhatPiggins

Risteard wrote: »

I'm actually not entirely sure about that. There was an interview with him a couple of weeks ago where he said they had a 90 minute scrummaging session. The french still place importance on the scrum and I think he'll learn a lot down there as opposed to staying in Munster.

Munster offered him Freddies contract i.e. 50K a year and about 6-9 starts a season. Toulon came in and offered him 100K a year!!! For a guy who played a total of 40 minutes rugby for Munster last season thats insane.

He's got almost no game time at Toulon yet, but hopefully he'll improve. To be honest I saw nothing in him to be excited about.

buck65

Timmy is better off in France, really lads he wouldn't even make the Munster 23 for HCup and we are talking about him stepping up eventually for Ireland? Ridiculous.
Hayes will be a loss in the short term for us and Ireland but one thing it will do is force Buckley into starting a HCup game or 2 and give Brugnaut game time too and whoever comes into the Irish front row for the AIs (relatively meaningless games this year, ideal to try some new things).

MikeHoncho

Surprised at how easily Mike Ross has been dismissed in this thread. Sure Stan is ahead of him at the moment at Leinster but Stan would probably be ahead of Hayes too on current form. I think Ross has been good when he has played for Leinster this year and was one of the best players in the GP last year. He would be my pick for the AI's if Hayes is missing.

Podge_irl

That's why Buckley simply isn't an option at tighthead unless he improves his scrummaging. That said, he seemed to be a lot better over the summer with Ireland. The lack of a scrum coach at Munster is hardly going to help him.

The Rooster

Have Horan or Healy ever scrummed down on the other side?

MikeHoncho wrote: »

Surprised at how easily Mike Ross has been dismissed in this thread. Sure Stan is ahead of him at the moment at Leinster but Stan would probably be ahead of Hayes too on current form. I think Ross has been good when he has played for Leinster this year and was one of the best players in the GP last year. He would be my pick for the AI's if Hayes is missing.

No probably about it. But Ross needs more game time if he's to be a serious contender for the green jersey.

Podge_irl wrote: »

That's why Buckley simply isn't an option at tighthead unless he improves his scrummaging. That said, he seemed to be a lot better over the summer with Ireland. The lack of a scrum coach at Munster is hardly going to help him.

While the opposition wasnt the strongest, it is correct to say that Buckley played very well in those Ireland games in the summer. Might be a sign of better things to come. He should get his chance to show what he can do for Munster if/when Hayes gets banned.

Morf

I think i read somewhere that Horan can play both sides of the scrum.

tHE vAGGABOND

That's why Buckley simply isn't an option at tighthead unless he improves his scrummaging

As much as I love that video, that was 8 against 7, as it was after the Bull had done riverdance on Cian Healy!

Podge_irl

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

As much as I love that video, that was 8 against 7, as it was after the Bull had done riverdance on Cian Healy!

I know, which is slightly unfair of me, but it was the easiest video to find. The point still stands though, that Buckley is a below average scrummager and I'd feel happier with either Court or Ross there (not overly happy, but happier).

Podge_irl

Morf wrote: »

I think i read somewhere that Horan can play both sides of the scrum.

I have never, ever seen him play tighthead and I seriously doubt he'd be capable of it.

dub_skav

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

As much as I love that video, that was 8 against 7, as it was after the Bull had done riverdance on Cian Healy!

That is true but leamy was packing down behind Buckley, so if anything Horan should have been the one to buckle, but it was Buckley who went running backwards. Also, Healy was only just back on the pitch and coming in cold.

bamboozle

Morf wrote: »

I think i read somewhere that Horan can play both sides of the scrum.

he can play tight head and on both wings...

musky

Podge_irl wrote: »

I have never, ever seen him play tighthead and I seriously doubt he'd be capable of it.

Horan can barely play 1 let alone 3, he should be given the jersey he truly desires, no 11

(all tounge in cheek btw - i do acknowledge that Horan has been a great player for Ireland and Munster and has the medals to prove it)

Luckycharm

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

As much as I love that video, that was 8 against 7, as it was after the Bull had done riverdance on Cian Healy!

Is he called Mushey because when it comes to scrumtime the scrums turn to mush. There were 8 forwards playing when he got destroyed in the Glasgow game this season- He is to Scrummaging what ROG is to tackling

spoon

I personally have always quite liked Mushy as a player, I think he's a beast at ruck time and can be a great ball carrier. His scummaging wasn't always as bad as it was last season if memory serves. He played against the All Blacks with Ireland and did pretty decent. I'm still a believer that he can get his form back and proove his critics wrong.

PhatPiggins

bamboozle wrote: »

he can play tight head and on both wings...

The loosehead head wears 1.

pappyodaniel

Whatever about Hayes I think Cian Healy deserves his chance in the no.1 jersey for Ireland. Savage player in the loose, and does his bread and butter front row duties admirably. At 22 he's a great prospect and will definately replace Horan at some stage. As for the no.3 jersey, this season will make or break Tony Buckleys chances of making it. Physically he's a monster, big ball carrier and lifter and very destructive the ruck and mauls but he has to toughen up mentally. He just needs a couple of big games to get the confidence back.

ALH-06

MikeHoncho wrote: »

Surprised at how easily Mike Ross has been dismissed in this thread. Sure Stan is ahead of him at the moment at Leinster but Stan would probably be ahead of Hayes too on current form. I think Ross has been good when he has played for Leinster this year and was one of the best players in the GP last year. He would be my pick for the AI's if Hayes is missing.

With Stan out for this week's HC game versus London Irish, Ross should get his chance to impress. Let's all hope he does well.

On another point - with the scrum being such a technical area, surely Buckley's below-par scrummaging could be worked on intensively and improved on the training pitch? It's not as if the guy lacks the physical attributes required...

gaius c

ALH-06 wrote: »

With Stan out for this week's HC game versus London Irish, Ross should get his chance to impress. Let's all hope he does well.

Hold your horses. The fellow with the sore toe is due back.

SpAcEd OuT

ALH-06 wrote: »

On another point - with the scrum being such a technical area, surely Buckley's below-par scrummaging could be worked on intensively and improved on the training pitch? It's not as if the guy lacks the physical attributes required...

To be honest hes 29 if he hasn't learned to scrummage properly at this stage I don't think he ever will. As for his physical attributes the fact that he is so tall surely is a disadvantage

ALH-06

gaius c wrote: »

Hold your horses. The fellow with the sore toe is due back.

I doubt Cheika will start CJ after such a long absence. Ross will start surely.

Chucky the tree

Ryan is getting destroyed against Casrte now in the challenge cup.

Risteard

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Ryan is getting destroyed against Casrte now in the challenge cup.

Yeah I know. Disappointed with that, I thought he'd do a bit better.

toomevara

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Ryan is getting destroyed against Casrte now in the challenge cup.

Putting it mildly. It's, unfortunately for the guy, getting embarrasing.