UK & Lisbon

Nuravictus

So I have a question about the UK and Lisbon Situtation, Basically from what I can see is David Cameron wants to have a public vote but the UK has signed the treaty already.

So say the Poland and the Czechs pass the treaty can Cameron still put it to a public vote. I am wondering this cause I watched the EU President get hot under the collar over the issue when asked by RTE.

prinz

Techinically he could but Cameron has already said that if Lisbon is ratified when he gets into power he will be unlikely to have a referendum on it. It was one of those promises you make, safe in the guarantee that someone else would reject it and he wouldn't have to live up to his word. Now that it's likely to be ratified he's changing his story :rolleyes: Cameron hasn't got the bottle to try it IMO.

ei.sdraob

Cameron is bluffing

like Ganley his an opportunist

ei.sdraob

talking of UK

UKIP's Nigel Farage is on RTE now


some quotes from himself:


* "lets have a third referendum"

* "look at the lies put out by the YES side"

* "you look back on this in Ireland as beginning of the end of your brief democracy"

destroyer

Cameron's only making populist noises to curry favour with the electorate, once elected PM he has no intention of letting the masses make a decision on Lisbon.

prinz

ei.sdraob wrote: »

* "you look back on this in Ireland as beginning of the end of your brief democracy"

Which is ironic seeing as how the UKIP's solution to the northern problem is to admit the Republic back into the United Kingdom. Apparently that worked so well before..

ei.sdraob

/offtopic slightly

Barozzo on RTE now

"thank you Ireland"

"the irish people have spoken and its a resounding YES"

Bob_Harris

ei.sdraob wrote: »

/offtopic slightly

Barozzo on RTE now

"thank you Ireland"

"the irish people have spoken and its a resounding YES"

Now give us jobs and economic recovery please.

ei.sdraob

Bob_Harris wrote: »

Now give us jobs and economic recovery please.

500million send our way few days ago for greencollar jobs

alot more to come

meglome

destroyer wrote: »

Cameron's only making populist noises to curry favour with the electorate, once elected PM he has no intention of letting the masses make a decision on Lisbon.

If I had to guess I'd say he's really hoping that the Lisbon treaty will be ratified before he might get elected. There's no way he really wants the shít that goes with a referendum.

Fuhrer

meglome wrote: »

If I had to guess I'd say he's really hoping that the Lisbon treaty will be ratified before he might get elected. There's no way he really wants the shít that goes with a referendum.

I agree, he wants it to be passed so he can rail against it, I doubt he wants to have to either pass it himself(Which he'd end up doing) or not passing it and taking the back lash.

destroyer

Fuhrer wrote: »

I agree, he wants it to be passed so he can rail against it, I doubt he wants to have to either pass it himself(Which he'd end up doing) or not passing it and taking the back lash.

Exactly, It's just like our Green minister and the road through Tara........"Sorry folks ,the thing was signed before I got here etc."

meglome

destroyer wrote: »

Exactly, It's just like our Green minister and the road through Tara........"Sorry folks ,the thing was signed before I got here etc."

Is that some kind of comparison?

Fuhrer

destroyer wrote: »

Exactly, It's just like our Green minister and the road through Tara........"Sorry folks ,the thing was signed before I got here etc."

Worst thing for the green parties were getting in power.

Nuravictus

Conservative party leader David Cameron renewed his pledge on Saturday to hold a referendum on the EU's reform treaty if he wins power next year and the treaty has still not come into force.


Irish voters backed the treaty in Friday's referendum, leaving the Czech and Polish leaders as the only heads of state that have yet to sign the document before it can take effect.
"There will be no change in our policy on Europe. There will be no change in Conservative policy as long as the Lisbon Treaty is still not in force," said Cameron, who is widely tipped to win a parliamentary election due by next June.
"I have said repeatedly that I want us to have a referendum. If the treaty is not ratified in all member states and not in force when the election is held, and if we are elected, then we will hold a referendum on it."
The British parliament ratified the Lisbon treaty after the Labour government rejected Conservative calls for a referendum.
The Conservatives say they will reverse Britain's ratification if voters reject it in their planned poll.
William Hague, the party's foreign affairs policy chief, said he respected Ireland's decision, but said the treaty had "no democratic legitimacy" in Britain.
"The government now needs to explain why the Irish people have had to vote twice when the British people have not been allowed to vote once," he said.
Despite the convincing Irish vote, Eurosceptic Cameron said he would name a referendum date during the election campaign.
While the Polish president looks set to the sign the treaty soon, a challenge at the Czech Constitutional Court has halted Prague's ratification process for now. However, the Czech prime minister believes the president will sign by the end of the year.
"The Czech prime minister has said that the constitutional challenge before the Czech Constitutional Court could take three to six months to resolve," Cameron said.
Cameron also said that even if the treaty, designed to speed up decision-making, were ratified by all members, the Conservatives would continue to fight it.
The Tory leader is mindful some Conservative right wingers want a referendum even if all EU states have ratified it.
A survey of 2,205 party members undertaken by the ConservativeHome.com website for the Independent newspaper on Saturday found that more than eight in 10 supporters want him to call a referendum even if it is approved.
"We have repeatedly said we would not let matters rest there. But we have one policy at a time, and we will set out how we would proceed in those circumstances if, and only if, they happen."

Very mixxed messages here but I find the one about holding a poll very interesting.

prinz

Nuravictus wrote: »

Very mixxed messages here but I find the one about holding a poll very interesting.

The thing is, and both Cameron and Hague have made clear, a referendum in the UK will only be an option if Lisbon has not been ratified before then. It's 99.99% probable that it will be. If Lisbon is already ratified.... then Cameron has said they will have a "new policy" whatever that means, I suspect that they will suck it up and accept Lisbon as good for the UK etc. you know put a bit of spin on things.

Mario007

but how can he legally put it to the referendum once it's ratified by the UK, i mean you can't just cancel a ratification just like that. would he pull out of the eu if lisbon was rejected or what?

Nuravictus

I would presume he would get the courts in the UK to say what the Government did was Illgeal and therefore the treaty should have never been inforced or something like that. Then put it to a vote.

Anyone with more knowledge please tell us how he could undo it :P

prinz

Mario007 wrote: »

but how can he legally put it to the referendum once it's ratified by the UK, i mean you can't just cancel a ratification just like that. would he pull out of the eu if lisbon was rejected or what?

That's the million euro question in my book. Any attempt to withdraw the UK would basically collapse Lisbon entirely etc. It would basically call the UK's commitment to the EU into doubt.

What I can see him doing is forgetting the referendum and perhaps asking for guarantees perhaps, using us as an example? He potentially could hold the EU to ransom over this, but that's nothing new *cough* Klaus *cough*

Buffy the bitch

David Cameron has promised that if they are in power before the Lisbon Treath is signed he is going to have a referendum on the matter.

I'm nearly sure I seen somewhere that people in the UK would strongly vote against it.

So was it all a waste of time?

bugler

More than that, I'm watching The Andrew Marr Show now on BBC1, and Cameron said in the event of a referendum in Britain the Tories will "lead the 'No' campaign".

Buffy the bitch

I'm watching that myself.

Seems a whole waste of time to be honest because Labour is going to be out soon so UK will be voting and I seen somewhere there's not a chance it's gonna pass there.

MarkK

Buffy the bitch wrote: »

I'm watching that myself.

Seems a whole waste of time to be honest because Labour is going to be out soon so UK will be voting and I seen somewhere there's not a chance it's gonna pass there.

There does not need to be a UK General Election until June.

I believe the Czechs can only delay by 6 months, so there is still a good chance it will go through.

crossmolinalad

a group of Czech senators and liberal spirit, the eurosceptic Lisbon Treaty on September 29 re-challenge with the Constitutional Court of the Czech Republic. The European Union is feared that this delay will provide time for months.
One of the senators, Jiri Oberfalzer of the liberal ODS party, the court will be asked whether the Lisbon Treaty in accordance with the constitutional order.

2008
Stimulated by the very eurosceptic President Vaclav Klaus, the ODS senators in 2008 of a first time for the stepped highcourt . The court rejected their arguments on the transfer of powers to the EU, not to speak about the full text of the treaty.

Six months delay?
Some European diplomats in Brussels, the demarche of the Czech Senate delays lead to six months, while the Europeans soon the new members of the European Commission should appoint. With the Lisbon Treaty, designed to improve the functioning of European institutions, each country retains its Commissioner (27 in total). If the current Nice Treaty applies, there is at least one road commissioner. The EU countries thought the new Commission at the latest by the end of this year to appoint, at least if the Irish Treaty of Lisbon on October 2 to approve. (belga / kh)

crossmolinalad

Well i hope so that he gets his chance
Half of Europe had hoped of a Irish no vote
the whole way to get this treaty get passed is pure criminal
Because

Netherlands vote NO. Government ratifies the Convention.
France says NO. Government ratifies the Convention.
Ireland votes NO. EU says: Go and vote again until a YES.

Is that Democracy? The EU is a democratic institution?

George Orwell 1984 is on your doormat.

namloc1980

crossmolinalad wrote: »

Well i hope so that he gets his chance
Half of Europe had hoped of a Irish no vote
the whole way to get this treaty get passed is pure criminal
Because

Netherlands vote NO. Government ratifies the Convention.
France says NO. Government ratifies the Convention.
Ireland votes NO. EU says: Go and vote again until a YES.

Is that Democracy? The EU is a democratic institution?

George Orwell 1984 is on your doormat.

Spain voted YES. Luxembourg voted YES. Ireland now has voted YES. Why is it convenient for you just to ignore those results??

namloc1980

Buffy the bitch wrote: »

David Cameron has promised that if they are in power before the Lisbon Treath is signed he is going to have a referendum on the matter.

I'm nearly sure I seen somewhere that people in the UK would strongly vote against it.

So was it all a waste of time?

If it's ratified by all states (remember the UK has already ratified it) Cameron also said they would have to formulate a new policy as the Treaty would be in force and having a referendum on it would be a waste of time.

Buffy the bitch

What if there was a general election before it's ratified?

namloc1980

Buffy the bitch wrote: »

What if there was a general election before it's ratified?

I'm not sure how easy or not it is to de-ratify something in UK law.

Noreen1

Basically. it depends how long Gordon Brown can cling to power.

There is little doubt that Labour will not be elected again, and that the Lisbon treaty is extremely unpopular with many voters in the UK.

The basic question then, is, whether Cameron wants to/ or can find a way to gain power in the next six months.

Noreen

ixtlan

Noreen1 wrote: »

There is little doubt that Labour will not be elected again, and that the Lisbon treaty is extremely unpopular with many voters in the UK.

I think it's the EU that is unpopular rather than Lisbon.

I suspect Cameron is hoping it will all be completed before he gets into power. If it's not he will hold a pointless referendum knowing it will be defeated. The problem for him if that happens, is that the people will want a vote on any new treaty, and the only vote definite to pass would be an EU withdrawal.

Ix.

prinz

ixtlan wrote: »

I suspect Cameron is hoping it will all be completed before he gets into power.

+1 Come on people, we all the kind of grandstanding opposition parties like to indulge in, making promises they know full well they could never actually keep. The Lisbon Treaty is due to have been fully ratified by 31st December this year. The Polish president has said he will sign, that leaves one man, one man who could potentially be forced to sign or face impeachment. The Constitutional Court in Prague is going to fast track the new appeal because they have already deemed Lisbon fully compatible with the Czech constitution. It's not going to take 6 months.

utick

ixtlan wrote: »

The problem for him if that happens, is that the people will want a vote on any new treaty,
Ix.

i dont see how giving people more of a say in the running of their country is a bad thing