Above The Law?- The Road Safety Authority

buzzwell

Hi I'm new here and hope you dont mind me asking if anyone knows of a Department within the Government which checks that legislation is correctly applied or implemented or interpreted.

I have an issue with the Road Safety Authority (they have admitted they are incorrectly implementing certain legislation regarding some Public Service Vehicles).
I contacted the Office of the Ombudsman but they told me that RSA is outside of their remit.

The Department of Transport will not assist either as parts of that department work hand in hand with the RSA.

Thanks in advance

Hooch

buzzwell wrote: »

Hi I'm new here and hope you dont mind me asking if anyone knows of a Department within the Government which checks that legislation is correctly applied or implemented or interpreted.

I have an issue with the Road Safety Authority (they have admitted they are incorrectly implementing certain legislation regarding some Public Service Vehicles).
I contacted the Office of the Ombudsman but they told me that RSA is outside of their remit.

The Department of Transport will not assist either as parts of that department work hand in hand with the RSA.

Thanks in advance

PSV - Are we talking taxi/hackney or buses??

Taxi regulator if its the first.

trad

There's always Joe Duffy

Seriously, is it Irish legislation or European legislation?

buzzwell

Hi Thanks - Minibuses so Taxi Reg. no good.

buzzwell

Hi thanks for the reply!

Irish law- SI 831 of 2005, transposed from an EU Directive.

Anyone who has had to have a speed limiter fitted to a minibus (not just activated from vehicle ECU) will be interested in this one, as the RSA has put their own interpretation on it, at around €1000 a time for each minibus!
The SI states that certain minibuses registered since 2001 require limiters to be fitted, but the RSA has notified VTN Vehicle Test Centres that ALL minibuses since 2001 have to have them fitted. So no limiter no DOE Cert, and €1000 for the test centre to fit a limiter to pass the test.
An RSA vehicle standards inspector has told me by email that they do not know which vehicles are exempt, and are not too worried about it either way. I feel this is an abuse of power from the RSA and dont have much options now apart from Joe Duffy or G.Ryan......

buzzwell

Sorry for posting short replys, I'm unable to log in properly for some reason!! Typical Newbie?

trad

How does your interpetation differ from the RSA's interpetation?

There is another thread going on here about the RSA and testing of campers

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055627692

and they also are having difficulty with the RSA interpetation of European Law.

The European Courst have ruled in relation to tachograph regulations that where a regulation is capable of interpetation in more than one way then both interpetations are legal.

If you have a vaild point I would suggest try the EU office at the corner of Dawson St / Molesworth St. The RAS is a relatively new quango and it may not have the depth of expertise to fully handle the onerous job they have been given. I once questioned seatbelt regulations to find they were drawn up by an engineer who had no legal expertise.

Jo King

Interpretation of legislation is a matter for the courts. You can apply for leave to judicially review the direction of the RSA to the test centres. You can state that the direction is in excess of their powers and illegal. If successful you would be awarded your costs.

buzzwell

Thanks-

The relevant SI, (831 of 2005), which was brought into force in 2008 states that minibuses registered between 2001 and 2005 which comply with EU Directive 88/77/EEC are required to have a speed limiter fitted.
The SI does not require limiters to be fitted to ALL vehicles.
However, RSA has directed that ALL minibuses are to have them fitted and that is my issue.
EU Directive 88/77/EEC relates to exhaust emmissions and on-board diagnostics.
The RSA has admitted it has no knowledge or understanding of EU 88/77/EEC and presumably for this reason is applying the SI across the board in an "Its better to be safe than sorry" mode albeit at the expense of owners of affected vehicles.

(As an aside many minibus owners were charged a pretty penny by dealers and VTN centres to have a limiter retro-fitted, even though their vehicles already had a speed limitation facility built into the vehicle's ECU which just needed to be activated.)

Jo King

Has the RSA admitted that in writing?

trad

Anecdotialy from trawling UK sites it appears that many minibuses are being sold with speed limiters fitted.

It seems to me to be a not unfair interpetation in that the legislation is intended to limit particular categories of vehicles to their speed limits. As some one who has attended accidents involving buses I for one would be in favour of limits being imposed on such vehicles.

The cost of €1000 for fitting, if you keep the bus for 5 years will cost you €4 per week. You will probably save more than that on fuel with the reduction in maximum speed.

buzzwell

Jo King wrote: »

Has the RSA admitted that in writing?

No..

buzzwell

The UK transport authorities have gone to the trouble of actually determining and listing and publishing which vehicles are affected by the EU Directive and which are not, unlike their Irish counterparts. I dont disagree with the principle of speed limiters on these vehicles for obvious reasons of safety, but I do have an problem with the RSA's "take it or leave it" approach to a Statutory Instrument affecting vehicle and business operators.
The obvious merits of limiting vehicles (private , commercial, motorbikes etc) on the road is a seperate matter.

buzzwell

trad wrote: »

Anecdotialy from trawling UK sites it appears that many minibuses are being sold with speed limiters fitted.

It seems to me to be a not unfair interpetation in that the legislation is intended to limit particular categories of vehicles to their speed limits. As some one who has attended accidents involving buses I for one would be in favour of limits being imposed on such vehicles.

The cost of €1000 for fitting, if you keep the bus for 5 years will cost you €4 per week. You will probably save more than that on fuel with the reduction in maximum speed.

The UK transport authorities have gone to the trouble of actually determining and listing and publishing which vehicles are affected by the EU Directive and which are not, unlike their Irish counterparts. I dont disagree with the principle of speed limiters on these vehicles for obvious reasons of safety, but I do have an problem with the RSA's "take it or leave it" approach to a Statutory Instrument affecting vehicle and business operators.
The obvious merits of limiting vehicles (private , commercial, motorbikes etc) on the road is a seperate matter.

Jo King

There is one way that this can be decided. Someone is refused a DOE because of the lack of a speed limiter. They then issue Judicial Review proceedings against the RSA and the DOE. I would imagine that there would be plenty of interest in the legal profession in taking the case on a no foal no fee basis.

thebigcheese22

Also re the RSA ad with women speaking, basically generalising that all men speed and are reckless behind the wheel, surely that's against gender equality law or the broadcasting act?? Sorry I'm no lawyer and I know its kinda off-topic

buzzwell

Jo King wrote: »

There is one way that this can be decided. Someone is refused a DOE because of the lack of a speed limiter. They then issue Judicial Review proceedings against the RSA and the DOE. I would imagine that there would be plenty of interest in the legal profession in taking the case on a no foal no fee basis.

That would seem to be the answer;
I think its amazing that theres no Government body with the power to oversee the RSA, bearing in mind that RSA Transport Officers have nearly as much power as the Gardai in relation to roadside checks on drivers and vehicles etc.
The RSA has also recently invited Tenders for the supply a number of new vans (They want them in "Metallic White"??) to enable them to start roadside enforcement of rules and regulations.

buzzwell

Jo King wrote: »

There is one way that this can be decided. Someone is refused a DOE because of the lack of a speed limiter. They then issue Judicial Review proceedings against the RSA and the DOE. I would imagine that there would be plenty of interest in the legal profession in taking the case on a no foal no fee basis.

We have now gotten confirmation from the European Commission that the RSA's interpretation was incorrect all along.

MagicSean

buzzwell wrote: »

We have now gotten confirmation from the European Commission that the RSA's interpretation was incorrect all along.

In a court case or did some guy tell you in an email?

buzzwell

k_mac wrote: »

In a court case or did some guy tell you in an email?

In a letter from the European Commission Directorate General for Mobility and Transport.


http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/transport/index_en.htm

buzzwell

An announcement is expexted shortly from the RSA admitting the "error".

Intervention from Europe seems to have done the trick................

SparrowTown

buzzwell wrote: »

The Department of Transport will not assist either as parts of that department work hand in hand with the RSA.

The Ombudsman can investigate transport can't she?

The RSA has admitted it has no knowledge or understanding of EU 88/77/EEC and presumably for this reason is applying the SI across the board in an "Its better to be safe than sorry" mode albeit at the expense of owners of affected vehicles.

Does RSA come under FOI and can you request the reason?

Our man in Havana

The Ombudsman cannot investigate the RSA as it is a quango. RSA are outside of the FOI act also.

SparrowTown

Haddockman wrote: »

The Ombudsman cannot investigate the RSA as it is a quango.

she can investigate dept transport, op mentioned transport

RSA are outside of the FOI act also.

ok was not sure about that

buzzwell

The point about the RSA being a quango and outside the remit of the Ombudsman is crucial, because it will be the RSA in the future and not the Department of Transport who will be engaging in roadside checks, and RSA enforcement officers actually have very strong powers in relation to vehicle and drivers, in fact almost as strong as the Gardai.

The Department of Transport no longer deals with much to do with roads, vehicle legislation etc.

The RSA has already tendered for vehicles to be specially equipped for these roadside checks.

Hypothetically, if the RSA or someone within it developed a grudge against any motorist, commercial or private, they would have the power to put them off the road or out of business without having to answer to any other state body or individual.

This is not an acceptable situation and must be looked at if for no other reason to give the RSA some credibility as a properly functioning quango.

buzzwell

SparrowTown wrote: »

she can investigate dept transport, op mentioned transport
ok was not sure about that

In the past, the Department of Transport has issued demands to commercial operators to supply licenses etc. for Departmental verification. On one occasion at least, appeared to be as a direct result of the operators' annoying the RSA for clarification on some issues.

The Department already knows the status of operators licenses as IT issues them!

The demand letters are also cited as being "Random":)

buzzwell

buzzwell wrote: »

An announcement is expexted shortly from the RSA admitting the "error".

Intervention from Europe seems to have done the trick................

Oh no its not!

They've backtracked now. Put on the back burner so to speak.

Oh well, Back to the European Commission we must go.

Just a wild thought-

As they EC has already confirmed our point here, imagine if the "our lads" was trying to persuade the EC to retract or disown the EC's own regulations just for 'lil ol' Ireland so as to prevent any embarrassment!

As I say, just a thought, that wouldn't happen anyway, surely there's some valid explanation for the new delay!




Intriguing...............................................................

Watch This Space For The Next Installment Folks

buzzwell

Theres a new circular just sent out

http://83.71.243.153/Documents/Vehicle%20Testing/Circulars%20for%20test%20centres/Circular%20VT/2010/VI_08-10_Speed_limiter_update.pdf

It says that limiters are now not needed if owner can prove there vehicle meets EU Directive 70/220 and about 22 subsequent amendments of it.

Any chance now of a few bob back for the ones who've already fitted the limiter as a result of the previous circulars?

buzzwell

Haddockman wrote: »

The Ombudsman cannot investigate the RSA as it is a quango. RSA are outside of the FOI act also.

True, but in case it's useful to yourself or anyone else, this is metioned in the 2008 Annual Report from the RSA:

Freedom of Information (FOI)
The RSA is not covered by the provisions of the Freedom of
Information Acts, as enabling legislation is required to extend
the provisions to the organisation. According to the
Department of Finance, who has responsibility for the Acts,
the process of extending the FOI Acts to the RSA is now
underway. Pending such extension, the RSA has decided to
conduct its business in as open and transparent a manner as
possible and operates as if the FOI Acts do apply.
During 2008, eight Freedom of Information requests were
handled by the RSA under this arrangement.


A customer service charter was also shelved in preference to putting in place there own internal occupational Health ans Safety scheme.OHSAS 18001?

no sign oif a 2009 report yet

Our man in Havana

It really is an unaccountable quango.

buzzwell

Haddockman wrote: »

It really is an unaccountable quango.

With a budget of around 45Million Euros.

Its spent e5200 on getting "Technical Advice" each and every day since its setting up in sep 2006 to the end of 2008, 4.4M euros!!!!!!!!!! total

No information containd in reports about travel expenses or hairdos and the like though:D:D:D