How not to do acoustics!!!

petermaher

Some of you may have attended the recent Audio Warehouse Show at my studio in Middlewalk, Tipperary which I'm sure you'll agree was a great success. The industry people were extremely and pleasantly surprised by the large turn out especially considering the remoteness of the venue.

Anyway, I recently got a call from a friend of mine, the guy that actually manufactured the diffuers,absorbers in the ceiling etc...and some guy who will remain nameless 'for the moment' called him up, said he'd been at the show, was a friend of mine and wanted a quote for the exact same treatment as I have, said that as he knew me I wouldn't mind!!:mad:
First of all he has no idea of how to curve the panels, he has no idea that the radius of the curve is directly proportional to the dimensions of the room, no idea what height to hang them at, where to position them, and most of all no idea of what kind of acoustic foam is on the back of them. The panels in the ceiling are only about 15% of the treatment in each room. The rest is hidden behind the fabric on the walls. It all works in harmony and this particular blend of treatment only works these rooms. This is basic stuff, its maths and it's black and white.
And this guy sells himself as a professional studio/engineer or whatever.
To be invited here to attend the show and then attempt to steal the design is not acceptable in my book and therefore munro will be in touch to warn of copyright infringement.

If you want a professionally designed studio, decide what characteristics you want it to have, find a reputable acoustician you trust, work with him, Pay the money!!

Maybe I'll send him a picture of an SSL and he can head to Maplin, I'll even supply the sauldering iron.:D

Lads there's a right way and a wrong way. What I just described I hope you'll agree is the wrong way!!

I believe that the ultimate aim of this forum is to further the quality of music production in Ireland. Excuse my naivety:D

On the day Chris Walls of Munro acoustics spoke 'briefly' about the treatment in the rooms. As I have gone from a digi 001 and an se 5600z in an untreated garage 4 years ago to this current studio I feel that the acoustic treatment has made the biggest difference to the whole process.

I will gladly explain the treatment throughout the studio, dimensions, materials, cost etc...although the latter is subjective.

Cheers, Peter.

petermaher

petermaher wrote: »

Maybe I'll send him a picture of an SSL and he can head to Maplin, I'll even supply the sauldering iron.:D

That's 'soldering' iron!!

Sorry.:)

dav nagle

petermaher wrote: »

That's 'soldering' iron!!

Sorry.:)

Brewer will get ya for bad spelling be careful Peter and nice to meet you virtually speaking, I am sad to have missed it. I understand your frustrations; name dropping without a permit is a very bold thing to be doing. However, I do feel that you are over reacting slightly. Even if he copied your dimensions to the 'T' surely it makes no difference to your business or does it or am I missing something here? Why are you annoyed is it because someone is copying your setup or name dropping? By the way I admire you for going from a 001 up to what you have now, fair play.

petermaher

dav nagle wrote: »

Brewer will get ya for bad spelling be careful Peter and nice to meet you virtually speaking, I am sad to have missed it. I understand your frustrations; name dropping without a permit is a very bold thing to be doing. However, I do feel that you are over reacting slightly. Even if he copied your dimensions to the 'T' surely it makes no difference to your business or does it or am I missing something here? Why are you annoyed is it because someone is copying your setup or name dropping? By the way I admire you for going from a 001 up to what you have now, fair play.

Cheers Dave, no it makes no difference to me in the short term anyway but I believe it affects us all in the long term.

The idea of a 'professional' recording studio in my opinion is that an artist is paying good money to be guaranteed that his art is getting recorded properly. So if you want to provide that absolute guarantee you have to pay for top notch gear, acoustics etc......,after that as we know it is up to personal taste, talent etc which is a whole other box of frogs.

I could just read a few "how to build a recording studio" books and chance my arm building one but then everything thereafter is based on me having chanced my arm and I could never guarantee anything to anyone except that this is my studio and this is how I do it, which isn't very professional.

If a guy was to just copy my exact dimensions and build an identical studio then that is basically stealing and neither myself or munro acoustics would stand for it.

Now I think this case is a whole other thing. This guy has at best an average studio. Tries to copy part of my acoustic treatment design by lying to the manufacturers without having any idea how it's going to affect the acoustics of his rooms. He's then likely to try sell his studio as something it's not. He's no more than a cowboy and that affects us all long term.

A lot of my work lately seems to be talented artists who've paid good money to record in so called top recording studios only to find that the end result isn't as expected, so the come here to fix it. They end up paying twice what they should have paid all because of the cowboy they had the misfortune of running into in the first place.

I mean it's the same as some guy "coming across" the schematics for a neve console, going off buying similar parts and selling it as a neve!!

As I said this guy doesn't know anything about these panels he's trying to copy or how they work in conjunction with the treatment in the walls so he'll stick them up and they wont work as he thought and I couldn't give a crap about that end of it. It's that he thinks it will work that is my problem. And could try and sell his studio to the unsuspecting talent as though it's professionally done.

Myself and brewer visited many a gaff first going to spain to meet Philip Newell to discuss design, then to London to meet Chris Walls(munro), we went to Metropolis, Air and Mark Knopflers British Grove which this year I think won the producers guild award for best studio ahead of Air and Abbey road. The acoustic test results for my gaff were on a par with British Grove. As you can imagine it took a lot of time and money to achieve that.

Actually on a funny note, the day of the show I heard someone comment that there was "too much roll off" at the back of the control room. He determined this while there were 53 people in the room.:rolleyes:

It's bad in every business to have lads carrying on as I described. A grade A studio has the right to sell itself as such but a grade C studio should only sell itself as grade C.

I'm in the business of guaranteeing quality, Munro acoustics are in the business of giving you the ability to guarantee quality.
The aforementioned cowboy just undermines all this.:)

dav nagle

So you feel the treatment that was carefully designed for your studio represents a signature sound in your audio productions and you don’t want some punk to artificially mimic your studios sound and tell lies, like them saying they sound as good or better? I can see your point.

fitz

Peter's spent good money on expensive design consultancy. Why would he want someone else getting those designs for nothing?

If you paid top dollar for an architect to design your house, would you want some else going to the same builder you got to build it for you and saying "I know Dav, can you build me the same house as you did for him, using the plans he paid for? I'm sure he won't mind." Load of my arse you wouldn't mind.

Peter, I think you're dead right to be annoyed. It's incredibly poor form.

dav nagle

fitz wrote: »

Peter's spent good money on expensive design consultancy. Why would he want someone else getting those designs for nothing?

If you paid top dollar for an architect to design your house, would you want some else going to the same builder you got to build it for you and saying "I know Dav, can you build me the same house as you did for him, using the plans he paid for? I'm sure he won't mind." Load of my arse you wouldn't mind.

Peter, I think you're dead right to be annoyed. It's incredibly poor form.

Yo!

I agree with you, it is bad form.

TelePaul

Not sure how I feel about this. I can't come out and say, "Hey, all you guys using an SM57 on an amp...that's MY thing, okay? So cut that **** out!"

madtheory

I wouldn't say Peter's control room has a signature sound. It's as flat as one could hope for, with a little bass tilt at the back (when it doesn't have 53 heads in it!!). It's really lovely listening to music in there. The studio sounds luverly.

Anyway, I have to agree, using someone's name without permission as a "contact" is morally wrong.

Anyone remember the now defunct pro studio with the mock diffuser at the back of the control room? Looked cool, I think that's what Mr. Cowboy was going for

studiorat

I really think the OP should deal with the matter in private. This Post just looks like an excuse for letting everybody know how much money he spent on his studio. Which most people don't really give a sh1t.

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

Not sure how I feel about this. I can't come out and say, "Hey, all you guys using an SM57 on an amp...that's MY thing, okay? So cut that **** out!"

That's hardly a like for like comparison Tele.

It's very insulting from my point of view that someone would take our hospitality and goodwill and throw it back in our faces like that.
I put a lot of effort in getting guys over from the UK to share their expertise and enthusiasm - each person there probably spent in the region of 5 to 600 euro to be there with flights, hotels , shipping gear etc.
Our show was free in and I didn't hand out 1 business card - it was a Recording Show with no hard sell as anyone who was there will confirm.

The person in question has never done any business with us yet recently I furnished him with a couple of numbers of guys who might be able to turn a bit of business his way, one being Peter himself - that's how WE operate.

How he actually thought he'd get away with pretending to be Peter's friend with a guy local to Peter beggars belief.

The ignorance of how acoustics work is also noted - the idea that a copying a custom solution would carry over to some random badly designed spaces shows a complete misunderstanding of the process.

Lastly as a final insult to Chris and his work this same person spoke to him about getting some consultation done and they swapped business cards.

I hope this kind of thing is a one off as this person is certainly no good for the Irish Recording Community.
If this is the sort of thing that is going to go on the future is bleak.

The culprit is a poster on Boards too.

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

Anyway, I have to agree, using someone's name without permission as a "contact" is morally wrong.

Yes

petermaher

studiorat wrote: »

I really think the OP should deal with the matter in private. This Post just looks like an excuse for letting everybody know how much money he spent on his studio. Which most people don't really give a sh1t.

It's nothing to do with what the studio cost. And we're only talking about acoustic design here which is only a small element of the over all cost. And the telling lies and using my name part is just idiotic.

I have no problem helping out anyone with any advice I can give. Next week(for free) I'm assembling a ton of acoustic treatment "similar to that in my gaff" for someone who went to munro, paid for a design, but is unsure of how to construct the stuff.

The way I see it, we're all here to share experience and give any kind of help and advice possible to further the quality of record production in Ireland. Trying to use someone else's design when you've no idea how it works is not the way forward. He'll end up preaching that his studio is the bees knees, artists will record there with more often than not poor results, end up out of pocket and disillusioned. How is that the way forward?

All I'm saying is there's a way of doing things and there are no real short cuts.

After that the guy can do what he wants "as long as it's not in my back yard";)

Neurojazz

I'd contact your lawyer - as this may be a valid case for deformation of character? - as he used your name to portray a solid grounded business that wasn't.

petermaher

Na, no need for that. He's been warned of the consequences of his actions so far. He's more than within his rights to draw up his own design based on what he's seen in my studio or anywhere else and have them manufacture that but there's no guarantee that it will work in his room especially when he has no idea of how much to curve them or what's behind them. Plus he wanted the same colour as mine (lissa oak), shur that'll look all wrong in his room;)

My point wasn't to go on about this guy. His approach was stupid, end of story.

My point was to highlight the lack of willingness of some people to do things properly. Hence the thread title 'how not to do acoustics'.

I used this guys story as an example.

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I hope this kind of thing is a one off as this person is certainly no good for the Irish Recording Community.
If this is the sort of thing that is going to go on the future is bleak.
The culprit is a poster on Boards too.

He was wrong for name dropping and that but to say 'no good for the recording industry' seems harsh, I feel sorry for the dude whoever he is. I am sure he feels bad for crossing the line. I also believe that hosting a fantastic event such as this is going to bring it's problems so if you open your doors to strangers gentleman be prepared for these kind of issues now and in the future, it's people, sometimes they get greedy or they just don't think about the consequences of their actions. If this dudes name gets out there posts like yours Paul could easily end his career. Everyone in life has their own unique road in life to follow and this dude is not going to succeed by cutting and pasting the hard work and careful planning of the OP.

splitrmx

petermaher wrote: »

I will gladly explain the treatment throughout the studio, dimensions, materials, cost etc...although the latter is subjective.

How much did the treatment cost and what type of material did they use?

I've always wanted to treat my small home studio room properly (currently I just have a few Primacoustic traps on the walls) but am not sure I could justify the price since it's just a hobby of mine.

petermaher

splitrmx wrote: »

How much did the treatment cost and what type of material did they use?

I've always wanted to treat my small home studio room properly (currently I just have a few Primacoustic traps on the walls) but am not sure I could justify the price since it's just a hobby of mine.

If it's just a hobby then I think getting a designer isn't the way to go.

The materials include varying depths of foam, membrane absorbers, a particular type of rockwool again of varying depths, enough 8x2 to build a big house etc.....There was about 60k worth of materials alone in my build + labour + design fees. That's just the acoustic treatment.

You really need to get someone to measure your room as is and then design a custom solution for you. If it's just a small room then there won't be that as material involved obviously but as I said if it's just a hobby then it's hardly worth it.:)

studiorat

Removed previous post, just to say that I think this thread is an Epic Fail. And offers no insight into acoustics as usual. The OP should keep his issues with other users off the forum. The post is also IMO blatant shilling of his own business.

Apologies for the back seat modding folks...

now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to install Linux on my Mac, I maybe some time...

madtheory

Christ, this is getting paranoid...

Seziertisch

+1 on what Niall and Studiorat said. I don't think what the guy did was right, but this isn't the place to vent spleen about it.

dav nagle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH_StQ6KdW0

THIS IS THE CULPRIT ITS STUDIORAT!




I took your dimensions
''wasn't me''

I stole your idea
''wasn't me''

I pretended we were friends
''wasn't me''

I lost respect on Boards
''wasn't me''

I had sex on the floor
''wasn't me''

I claimed to be something I am not
''wasn't me''

I was bad for the industry
''wasn't me''

seannash

seriously this is a bit silly.yes bad form of him to use your name,no questions asked but apart from that hes done bugger all else wrong.

you have a nice sounding room,stupidly he thought that if he bought the same stuff as you his room would also sound nice.

you admit yourself it wont work because he has a different room and yours was specifically made to suit your room.

his will sound like crap and he will have wasted alot of money.
in the end his laziness and unwillingness to do it right will result in a less than stellar result

whats to be upset about

petermaher

I'm just gonna say this once more!!

The title of the thread is 'how not to do acoustics'!!

This thread was not meant as a witch hunt nor is it chest beating!

Of course I was annoyed that he used my name etc....but ultimately I don't care. And yes his approach is a fruitless excercise. And as far as I'm concerned he will remain nameless.

I just used that story as an example of the ignorance (of some lads out there) towards how acoustic treatment works and how that can filter down to the unsuspecting talent and how that's ultimately bad for the business.

As far as this post being "an epic fail" and "offering no insight into acoustics as usual" studiorat, as I said I'll answer any question as best I can but you need to ask one first.

If you want me to tell you it can be done for 5 squid and a few egg cartons I ain't gonna do that I'm afraid!!

I'm not an acoustician but I can tell you about the materials involved and the costs.

studiorat

petermaher wrote: »

As far as this post being "an epic fail" and "offering no insight into acoustics as usual" studiorat, as I said I'll answer any question as best I can but you need to ask one first.

So this is a thread where you say how not to do acoustics and then we have to ask questions before any information is offered?

So how does someone who doesn't want to employ a consultant get a decent result from their room?

Excuse for an epic fail.

Welease

petermaher

studiorat wrote: »

So this is a thread where you say how not to do acoustics and then we have to ask questions before any information is offered?

So how does someone who doesn't want to employ a consultant get a decent result from their room?

Excuse for an epic fail.

Yes as you can see that's the title of the thread and then I told you a story about a guy who went about it the wrong way.

If you don't want to employ a consultant then I can't see how you can guarantee a good result. You may get lucky, who knows. And what's a "decent" result? The word decent is subjective is it not? From a professional point of view you have to take the "who knows" out of the equation. It also depends on what you want to achieve. Do you want to guarantee that your studio is absolute grade A or that it's decent. You can throw egg cartons up all day long or auralex or move the mattress around or whatever but the truth is you never really know. I know of one studio that got a "decent" result without a consultant. Every producer, engineer that walks in there loves the place but after a while there are little annoyances, when you get to the mixing stage you find the room mics aren't quite right r whatever. There's a peak at 100hz in one point of the room where we discovered everyone liked to place the bass drum but then that position compromises all the other mics in the room. So Chris did a design to fix it which we are installing in the next few weeks and it's going to be a great room.

My experience is, I contacted Chris Walls, discussed the characteristics I wanted the studio to have, he came back with a design and a prediction of what the three rooms would sound like and how they would compliment each other. After it was built he measured it again and was exactly as predicted. The biggest difference it made to the process I feel is it made the process quicker. There are no issues, you stick up a mic, it sounds great, u record it. Everyone that recorded here so far is of the same opinion, it sounds so good straight away. And that's not chest beating, Its the same in many studios.

I find it's the same with gear, mic's, pre's, montiors, if they're top notch you get the desired result quicker. Having said that some people just don't make nice sounds. To quote Mr Brewer "****e in ****e out" or "you can't turn sh*t into chocolate".

If you want a Grade A studio you're not going to get it by hatching a plan on a discussion forum. Get a pro to do it. As I said I started on a digi001 and as usual my main question was why doesn't my stuff sound as good as joe bloggs in LA or Nashville or London or wherever? And the answer is, they're better players, they use better strings, amps, mic's, Pre's, rooms etc.....

I can explain all day long how to assemble a membrane absorber but what it's going to do in your room I haven't the faintest. There are approx 50 membrane absorbers in my rooms and no two are the same, they all vary in size and depth and therefore affect different frequencies but yet all remain sympathetic to each other. Actually during the build the biggest difference was when the treatment was done in the walls, the stuff in the ceiling was like the last 10%.

So again my advice is get a consultant but if you don't want to do that then you're just "having a go" and if you're happy to do that then I'd say they're are basic rules, follow them. Read a "how to build a studio" book, philip newell does a good one. Throw up some foam, acoustic.co.uk have a ton of acoustic products, talk to brewer, he'll surely point you in the right direction or at least point out where you've gone wrong;),basically you need to do these things and see what happens. You may get lucky. I'll explain building a membrane absorber, you build a few, stick them in and see what they do, if you do enough research you might even figure out what size to build it and what frequencies it'll affect. Remember every inch of my walls are covered with membrane absorbers so building one and sticking it in your room may do damn all. If you want pro results for a fiver it ain't gonna happen I'm afraid.

studiorat

Yes as you can see that's the title of the thread and then I told you a story about a guy who went about it the wrong way.

No it was a rant about how you feel hard done by for some guy ringing up your fabricator and asking him to build panels like yours.

TelePaul

Let me play devil's advocate for a second Paul, maybe I'm missing something.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That's hardly a like for like comparison Tele.

I'll admit is somewhat disingenuous but the fact remains: Les Paul didn't take steps to protect the multi-track recording process from imitation and, as from what I gather the OPs studio utilises nothing by way of proprietary technology, it's hardly reasonable to assume it's above imitation no? I read an interview with C.F Martin and he was asked why the original Dreadnought design hadn't been patented considering the competition from Taylor and the likes. He said - and I've seen it written elsewhere before - that "Where there's a coke, there's a Pepsi".

PaulBrewer wrote: »

It's very insulting from my point of view that someone would take our hospitality and goodwill and throw it back in our faces like that.
I put a lot of effort in getting guys over from the UK to share their expertise and enthusiasm - each person there probably spent in the region of 5 to 600 euro to be there with flights, hotels , shipping gear etc.
Our show was free in and I didn't hand out 1 business card - it was a Recording Show with no hard sell as anyone who was there will confirm.

The person in question has never done any business with us yet recently I furnished him with a couple of numbers of guys who might be able to turn a bit of business his way, one being Peter himself - that's how WE operate.

I think everyone's very grateful for the effort you put in. Sadly I couldn't be there myself. But it seems like a bit of a paradox - on the one hand you're championing the community spirit afforded by boards and the opportunities for networking; but on the other you're taking exception when someone attempts to replicate a showcased studio. Sorry, but wasn't that the point of the entire show? To pick up new ideas, ask questions and sample new products? Or was it a platform for the heavy-weights to show just how much cash was dropped on their state-of-the-art studio? Where's the benefit in that?

PaulBrewer wrote: »

How he actually thought he'd get away with pretending to be Peter's friend with a guy local to Peter beggars belief.

I could see how this would happen: "Hey there X, I was talking to Y at such-and-such..." serves as a pretty good introduction, no? Again, wasn't the event intended to promote networking?

PaulBrewer wrote: »

The ignorance of how acoustics work is also noted - the idea that a copying a custom solution would carry over to some random badly designed spaces shows a complete misunderstanding of the process.

Indeed, it probably further outlines why the person in question so dearly wished to replicate a solution that he knew worked. Kinda flattering, no?

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I hope this kind of thing is a one off as this person is certainly no good for the Irish Recording Community.
If this is the sort of thing that is going to go on the future is bleak.
The culprit is a poster on Boards too.

Steady-on! I think that the sharing and dissemination of knowledge is pretty damn good for the Irish Recording Community! I think you'd agree that the more people making high-quality recordings is preferable to a monopoly. Also, the whole "The culprit is a boards poster" thing probably isn't a good idea, it's not very fair considering your professional interest in all this.

TelePaul

petermaher wrote: »

If you want me to tell you it can be done for 5 squid and a few egg cartons I ain't gonna do that I'm afraid!!

Ah ****!!

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

Let me play devil's advocate for a second Paul,

Indeed !

it's hardly reasonable to assume it's above imitation no?

These are actually bespoke copyrighted designs, the copyright resides with Munro 'til 50 years after Chris' death !

I think everyone's very grateful for the effort you put in. Sadly I couldn't be there myself. But it seems like a bit of a paradox - on the one hand you're championing the community spirit afforded by boards and the opportunities for networking; but on the other you're taking exception when someone attempts to replicate a showcased studio. Sorry, but wasn't that the point of the entire show? To pick up new ideas, ask questions and sample new products? Or was it a platform for the heavy-weights to show just how much cash was dropped on their state-of-the-art studio? Where's the benefit in that?

Unlike you TP this is how we make our living. Services and goods don't come for free.

The benefit of visiting a studio like Peter's is so you, had you been in a position to visit, could have seen and heard the things I've been posting about for the last year and a half.

You could also hopefully say to yourself ' Yes this makes sense and I could do this too'

Whilst you may have a point about me being a Heavy-Weight, Peter is in good shape - He works out you know ...

I could see how this would happen: "Hey there X, I was talking to Y at such-and-such..." serves as a pretty good introduction, no?

Indeed, but that's not how it happened.

In fact our friend was so insistent that he was a 'mate' that when the carpenter lost the culprits phone number he called Peter to get it. That's when the deception became apparent.

Indeed, it probably further outlines why the person in question so dearly wished to replicate a solution that he knew worked. Kinda flattering, no?

No. The service is readily available - but at a cost.
In fact we had suggested a free visit to take measurements.

Steady-on! I think that the sharing and dissemination of knowledge is pretty damn good for the Irish Recording Community!

Yes - that's why I try do as much as I can. In fact when I offered some to you you rejected it.

I think you'd agree that the more people making high-quality recordings is preferable to a monopoly. Also, the whole "The culprit is a boards poster" thing probably isn't a good idea, it's not very fair considering your professional interest in all this.

Fair? It's a fact.

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Yes - that's why I try do as much as I can. In fact when I offered some to you you rejected it.

I was actually going to reply until I read that. You're way too involved in this thing, to the point where you're coming across as a bit of a bollox.

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

I was actually going to reply until I read that. You're way too involved in this thing, to the point where you're coming across as a bit of a bollox.

That as maybe - but a fact is a fact - and that's all I'm interested in.

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That as maybe - but a fact is a fact - and that's all I'm interested in.

It's pretty obvious that the attempts to keep commercial interactions away from the main forum have failed spectacularly.

N.B - For anyone who might infer from Paul's heavy-handed response to my post that I'm the 'boards culprit', I'd like to state that it aint me.

DamagedTrax

i think this is well outta hand!

peter made a point but there was no need for the fact it was a boards member to be brought into it. especially by someone who wasnt the OP.

anyway, i really dont see how its an issue. the guys room will sound like **** after he spends a fortune on it. who's loss is it really besides his own.

Welease

Peter has a point that could have been made to the guy via a PM, that's what they are there for..

He doesn't frequent this board, he doesn't offer advice or contribute here, so he should'nt start a sh*tting match here.

It was an Audio Warehouse event, and whatever transpired shouldn't end up as drama here.

fitz

While I generally agree with Rat and the guys that this isn't the place to air the grievance, the whole thing started on here, so that muddy's the waters.

I think the commercial interaction forum has worked wonders in keeping the commercial interests off the board, by and large.

TP, Paul is involved in the situation.
It's someone taking advantage of the access to one of his clients afforded by the show they organised.
Tbh, I can see why Paul's involved in this, I can't see why you're calling him a b*llox.
If anyone's getting overly personally involved without cause, it'd be you.
Lets all take a deep breath before this turns into a flame-war.

I don't agree with anyone shilling their business, least of all Brewer, but as I said, it's no different to the architect/builder analogy I mentioned earlier. Whether you consider it worth the money it would cost to get these designs done, you can't say that the services provided aren't commercially valuable. Trying to get the benefit of those designs for free is underhanded. There's no denying that.

fitz

To follow up, I agree with the guys...this probably should have been done via PM.

TelePaul

fitz wrote: »

While I generally agree with Rat and the guys that this isn't the place to air the grievance, the whole thing started on here, so that muddy's the waters.

I think the commercial interaction forum has worked wonders in keeping the commercial interests off the board, by and large.

TP, Paul is involved in the situation.
It's someone taking advantage of the access to one of his clients afforded by the show they organised.
Tbh, I can see why Paul's involved in this, I can't see why you're calling him a b*llox.
If anyone's getting overly personally involved without cause, it'd be you.
Lets all take a deep breath before this turns into a flame-war.

I don't agree with anyone shilling their business, least of all Brewer, but as I said, it's no different to the architect/builder analogy I mentioned earlier. Whether you consider it worth the money it would cost to get these designs done, you can't say that the services provided aren't commercially valuable. Trying to get the benefit of those designs for free is underhanded. There's no denying that.

If what you're saying is true, then Brewer should be handling this privately, possibly with the help of legal professionals, and not using boards as a means of airing personal grievances. I offered an objective take on things and he starts making it personal. That's why I called him a bollox. Nothing complicated about that, read the thread, it's plain as day.

fitz

TP, you've been on boards long enough to know how it works...if someone gets personal, use the Report button, don't go calling people a b*llox. It benefits no-one, makes you seem like an ass, and the whole conversation degenerates into a bitch-fest.

I agree though, this was probably best discussed privately.

TelePaul

fitz wrote: »

TP, you've been on boards long enough to know how it works...if someone gets personal, use the Report button, don't go calling people a b*llox. It benefits no-one, makes you seem like an ass, and the whole conversation degenerates into a bitch-fest.

I agree though, this was probably best discussed privately.

Can you at least move it to commercial interest then?

Oh and btw, you calling me an 'ass' for 'getting personal'? Seems a bit rich.

fitz

Not the mod here no more!

TelePaul

fitz wrote: »

Not the mod here no more!

So you're back-seat modding too? :rolleyes: FFS can we have a bit of consistency around here? PLEASE?