M3 tolls - Who will be bypassing?

chewed

I posted a similar thread last year, but as they're getting closer to completing the M3, can I ask all the Meath (N3) commuters if they will be paying to use the motorway or bypassing it, using the existing N3?

I take a bus from Trim, so I'm not affected, but I know if I lived in Dunshaughlin I would not be paying to use the motorway!

sdanseo

Isn't is two €1.40 tolls over the length? That means barring a stupendously short distance between tolls a return toll of €2.80 a day. Tuppance when you consider CIE prices these days. Sure didnt rail commuters get charged an extra €2 daily just to PARK their cars let alone people in Navan continuing to use them. (Granted there's feck all alternative).

chewed

I heard it was going to be €11.20 per day if you were commuting from Kells! This works out at €2.80 for each toll

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/return-trip-from-kells-to-dublin-will-cost-83641120-1855555.html

Cool Mo D

Nope, the independent are wrong there - although they're hardly bastions of good journalism at the best of times. This is the draft toll document available on the NRA website, which gives a toll of €1.06 in 2000 prices. That's about €1.50 each toll today.

chewed

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Nope, the independent are wrong there - although they're hardly bastions of good journalism at the best of times. This is the draft toll document available on the NRA website, which gives a toll of €1.06 in 2000 prices. That's about €1.50 each toll today.

But this a draft document and is 9 years old! How do you know it will be €1.50 for each toll? Do you trust the NRA over the Independent?

amacachi

chewed wrote: »

Do you trust the NRA over the Independent?

Best question ever.

corktina

if you dont want to pay, dont use it...you may as well say you dont want to pay to use the train or bus...whats the difference?

Colm R

Does anyone have any ideas if Bus Eireann have any plans for the motorway at peak times? Massive opportunity here to really make the bus journey a real alternative to the car.

anotherlostie

If it is €2.80 per toll that would mean a round trip, today, of €17.20 for me to get from West Dublin to Cavan (including M50 €3 tolls). Going via the M4 to Mullingar and heading on to Cavan on a winding but well surfaced and quiet road would cost €5.80 total. And God knows what Virginia will be like once the motorway opens - the new Ballinasloe?

corktina

wont there be the same number of cars passing there per hour as now?

anotherlostie

corktina wrote: »

wont there be the same number of cars passing there per hour as now?

In the evenings, especially Friday, the traffic will escape from Dublin at a much more rapid pace and when it comes off the motorway past Kells, there will (I think) be a dumping of traffic into Virginia (traffic previously held up in Dunshaughlin and Kells and staggered by traffic lights in those towns). And if this makes it impossible for traffic to get onto the Dublin Rd from the Ballyjamesduff Rd in Virginia, then traffic lights may follow (at the moment there are only pedestrian lights) at that junction.

2qk4u

I will go around it, i travel from Navan to Dublin and back every day and sometimes use the M50 too, Its too expensive to drive in this country as it is never mind the hikes in the december budget.

Pineapple stu

The N3 will still be there for you so you dont need to use the M3 at all if you dont want to pay the tolls. its not like if they are putting tolls on the existing road and people having to use the back roads to avoid the toll.

corktina

anotherlostie wrote: »

In the evenings, especially Friday, the traffic will escape from Dublin at a much more rapid pace and when it comes off the motorway past Kells, there will (I think) be a dumping of traffic into Virginia (traffic previously held up in Dunshaughlin and Kells and staggered by traffic lights in those towns). And if this makes it impossible for traffic to get onto the Dublin Rd from the Ballyjamesduff Rd in Virginia, then traffic lights may follow (at the moment there are only pedestrian lights) at that junction.

but the cumulative delays will still be less surely if you eliminate some of the bottlenecks , even if the bottleneck in Virginia gets worse(which i dont believe will be the case...)

anotherlostie

corktina wrote: »

but the cumulative delays will still be less surely if you eliminate some of the bottlenecks , even if the bottleneck in Virginia gets worse(which i dont believe will be the case...)

So you think we should pay a toll of €5.60 simply to move the backlog to the end of the journey? (where, remember, the motorway traffic will be joined by those that chose to use the toll free route). Abbeyleix is not as bad as the cumulative Kildare/ Monasterevin delay but it is still annoying. Anyway, you are in Kanturk - you'll hardly be using the M3 too often!

oddiot

I'd probably pay the tolls if going to Donegal, but if just going to Navan, the N2/M2/N2 to south of Slane and then R153 towards Navan.

corktina

anotherlostie wrote: »

So you think we should pay a toll of €5.60 simply to move the backlog to the end of the journey? (where, remember, the motorway traffic will be joined by those that chose to use the toll free route). Abbeyleix is not as bad as the cumulative Kildare/ Monasterevin delay but it is still annoying. Anyway, you are in Kanturk - you'll hardly be using the M3 too often!

you seem to know an awful lot about me! Think yourself lucky to have a motorway...the nearest one to me is almost an hours drive away, but my road tax is the same as yours....

penexpers

corktina wrote: »

but my road tax

*sigh* you don't pay road tax.

burger1979

I travel from navan to sandyford every day. i dont pay the M50 toll in the morning but do in the afternoon. I dont think that i'll be using the M3 when it starts, i mean if i was to use motorway all the way it will be about €8-€10 per day, which is just madness. i would be hoping that there will be enough of a take up in traffic on the M3 that the R147(N3) will be relatively quiet in the evenings going to navan and the times will drop by a bit to what they are now.

corktina

penexpers wrote: »

*sigh* you don't pay road tax.

No? well if I dont pay "IT" im not allowed used the road, so whatever you want to call it (sigh) its a "tax" to use the road, or to put it another way a Toll.A rose by any other name etc etc

penexpers

corktina wrote: »

No? well if I dont pay "IT" im not allowed used the road, so whatever you want to call it (sigh) its a "tax" to use the road, or to put it another way a Toll.A rose by any other name etc etc

You are allowed to use the road if you don't pay motor tax.

corktina

yawn...

chewed

burger1979 wrote: »

I travel from navan to sandyford every day. i dont pay the M50 toll in the morning but do in the afternoon. I dont think that i'll be using the M3 when it starts, i mean if i was to use motorway all the way it will be about €8-€10 per day, which is just madness. i would be hoping that there will be enough of a take up in traffic on the M3 that the R147(N3) will be relatively quiet in the evenings going to navan and the times will drop by a bit to what they are now.

If everyone has the same idea as you have, then the roads will be just as busy as they are now! I can't see commuters from Dunshaughlin paying the toll, so there will be the usual bottleneck coming into the village.

_Kaiser_

anotherlostie wrote: »

In the evenings, especially Friday, the traffic will escape from Dublin at a much more rapid pace and when it comes off the motorway past Kells, there will (I think) be a dumping of traffic into Virginia (traffic previously held up in Dunshaughlin and Kells and staggered by traffic lights in those towns). And if this makes it impossible for traffic to get onto the Dublin Rd from the Ballyjamesduff Rd in Virginia, then traffic lights may follow (at the moment there are only pedestrian lights) at that junction.

There's not even that, though a set of pedestrian lights did go up at the junction to the health centre recently.

As it is today a set of lights at that junction is badly needed - try getting through it around 9:15 in the morning when the mummys are all dropping little Johnny/Mary to the school up that road.
Plus you have the cars pulling in and out of the Statoil/O'Dwyers garage that's positioned right on that corner too :rolleyes:

Was there not talk of a Virginia bypass too at some point though?

L1011

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Was there not talk of a Virginia bypass too at some point though?

Not on the NRAs current planned schemes list. Belturbet bypass is, though, which would probably make Virginia even worse as traffic getting past Belturbet (and Cavan) easier would come at it from the other direction.

IIMII

cymro wrote: »

The N3 will still be there for you so you dont need to use the M3 at all if you dont want to pay the tolls. its not like if they are putting tolls on the existing road and people having to use the back roads to avoid the toll.

That type of crap annoys me. I could travel quite easily from Drogheda, Ashbourne, Kildare, Arklow and Kilcock without paying a toll. Yes, I'll be paying but don't give me crap that it is some sort of a good deal. I'll pay it in the morning and return via the Trim road, R125, M3 non-toll section in the evening.

I also travel across the M50 at least twice a week return so I'll have to pay M3 and M50 tolls, a load of me bolllix. And screw the old road

burger1979

chewed wrote: »

If everyone has the same idea as you have, then the roads will be just as busy as they are now! I can't see commuters from Dunshaughlin paying the toll, so there will be the usual bottleneck coming into the village.

thats true i think that commuters from dunshaughlin probably will not go for the M3 but i am hoping that laziness and the thoughts of 'ah sure its only whatever extra' to get home that little bit quicker will get some of them on it and leave a little more room on the R147 for others who are not going to use the M3. i have no doubt that come a friday evening when i'm going home that i'll be tempted to do it too or even more days. its oh so easy when you have a tag.

chewed

burger1979 wrote: »

'ah sure its only whatever extra' to get home that little bit quicker

That just sums up the Irish attitude towards every rip off in this country. TBH, I would love to see everyone avoiding the tolls on this unnecessary road to show the NRA/NTR that we won't accept excessive tolling across the county.

markpb

chewed wrote: »

That just sums up the Irish attitude towards every rip off in this country. TBH, I would love to see everyone avoiding the tolls on this unnecessary road to show the NRA/NTR that we won't accept excessive tolling across the county.

Don't forget that if no-one uses the toll road, we'll be paying the tolling company anyway. *sigh*

chewed

That's true! An absolute disgrace whoever agreed to this arrangement. But I still think commuters need to make a stance on this and show that they're not willing to pay these exorbitant prices to use a road when proper bypasses around Navan and Dunshaughlin should have been built years ago.
In 1999 a bypass in Dunshaughlin was approved but they decided wait 10 years to put this in place, making commuters pay for the privilege!

corktina

have cake AND eat it situation....

you want a road but dont want to pay for it...has to be paid for either through tolls or through your taxes...at least with a toll road you can choose NOT to pay which you cant do with a non-toll road.

Pineapple stu

In Catalonia in Spain they have toll bridges every 20km or so on the motorways/dueal cariageways.

Blackhorse Slim

corktina wrote: »

you want a road but dont want to pay for it...has to be paid for either through tolls or through your taxes...at least with a toll road you can choose NOT to pay which you cant do with a non-toll road.

I drive from Navan to Dublin and back every day. Won't be paying any tolls.

burger1979

chewed wrote: »

That just sums up the Irish attitude towards every rip off in this country. TBH, I would love to see everyone avoiding the tolls on this unnecessary road to show the NRA/NTR that we won't accept excessive tolling across the county.

your right, an attitude of laziness i feel brought on by the last years of booming economy more expandable income etc. etc. (and i am as guilty of it too from time to time) but thats another days arguement. It is excessive tolling no doubt about it, do you think though that if the tolls are not used then the toll operator will drop the cost? thats something that i cannot see happening tbh.

chewed

burger1979 wrote: »

your right, an attitude of laziness i feel brought on by the last years of booming economy more expandable income etc. etc. (and i am as guilty of it too from time to time) but thats another days arguement. It is excessive tolling no doubt about it, do you think though that if the tolls are not used then the toll operator will drop the cost? thats something that i cannot see happening tbh.

No, I doubt it. If they're going to get reimbursed for the loss on tolling from the government, then why would they reduce the prices? It's a win win situation for them from what I can gather.

corktina

well of course it is...they wouldnt have put up the cash for it otherswise

manutd

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

There's not even that, though a set of pedestrian lights did go up at the junction to the health centre recently.

As it is today a set of lights at that junction is badly needed - try getting through it around 9:15 in the morning when the mummys are all dropping little Johnny/Mary to the school up that road.
Plus you have the cars pulling in and out of the Statoil/O'Dwyers garage that's positioned right on that corner too :rolleyes:

Was there not talk of a Virginia bypass too at some point though?

Were the NRA and CCC out during the summer, looking at having a by-pass from the M3 to Cavan Town. It was in the Celt during the summer, ever heard since about it.

BrianD

burger1979 wrote: »

I travel from navan to sandyford every day. i dont pay the M50 toll in the morning but do in the afternoon. I dont think that i'll be using the M3 when it starts, i mean if i was to use motorway all the way it will be about €8-€10 per day, which is just madness. i would be hoping that there will be enough of a take up in traffic on the M3 that the R147(N3) will be relatively quiet in the evenings going to navan and the times will drop by a bit to what they are now.

It's a pity that the tolling structure doesn't give Burger1979 an incentive to use public transport. If the southern toll on the M3 was moved further south then Burger could use the P&R take the train into the city and walk across to the Green Line and be out in Sandyford. Might take him or her a little longer then car but with reduced stress and tolls!

_Kaiser_

Where exactly are these tolls going?

I know one is going in just beyond the Trim/Ratoath junction, but the one around Navan - is it going to be the Dublin side of Navan or the Kells side?

corktina

BrianD wrote: »

It's a pity that the tolling structure doesn't give Burger1979 an incentive to use public transport. If the southern toll on the M3 was moved further south then Burger could use the P&R take the train into the city and walk across to the Green Line and be out in Sandyford. Might take him or her a little longer then car but with reduced stress and tolls!

train fare might be more than the toll I guess...

burger1979

BrianD wrote: »

It's a pity that the tolling structure doesn't give Burger1979 an incentive to use public transport. If the southern toll on the M3 was moved further south then Burger could use the P&R take the train into the city and walk across to the Green Line and be out in Sandyford. Might take him or her a little longer then car but with reduced stress and tolls!

i would use public transport if it was a viable option. i can take the bus into town then the luas and this would be ok in the morning i think as the bus goes to stephens green from navan, but in the evening take te luas to town walk across the city to busaras, the bus from there to navan. i would say about 2 hours to get home in the evenings. probably 1.5 hours in the morning. car in the morning is 45 mins. in the evening usually 1 hours. My wife gets the bus into town everyday but she works in trinity so its handier for her. if there was a train option all the way to pearse then that would be better, but then thats not going to happen for a few years now.

Colm R

Any idea what the price of the tolls are going to be for trucks.

I was in Kells last friday, around 2pm, and the place was riddled with trucks. And Kells is a tough town to walk around, I hope the bypass takes some traffic off, but I think the price is too steep.

chewed

Colm R wrote: »

Any idea what the price of the tolls are going to be for trucks.

I was in Kells last friday, around 2pm, and the place was riddled with trucks. And Kells is a tough town to walk around, I hope the bypass takes some traffic off, but I think the price is too steep.

The price for trucks will most likely be excessive! I think the only way to get rid of the trucks from the town is to put a ban on them and force them to use the motorway.

munchkin_utd

from the M3 fan club website ;-)
http://www.tarawatch.org

Note,
a) this is year 2000 prices, so add a paddy premium of 60 to 100% for 2010 prices
b) theres 2 toll booths, coming from Virginia, Cavan, Kells using the Kells + Navan by pass you pass through both, for Navan only 1 toll.

Estimated Amounts of the Tolls that it is Proposed to Charge at each of the two

CLASS OF TRAFFIC ESTIMATED TOLL CHARGES*
Euro (€) (excluding VAT)

Motor Cycles (exceeding 50cc) €0.45
Motor Cars €0.875
Buses or Coaches €1.325
Goods Vehicles with a design gross vehicle weight not exceeding 3,500 kilograms €1.325
Goods Vehicles with a design gross vehicle weight exceeding 3,500 kilograms and having two or three axles €1.75
Goods Vehicles with a design gross vehicle weight exceeding 3,500 kilograms and having four or more axles €2.15

So for a truck doing 2 return runs from Virginia to Dublin and back you'd be looking at 17.20 a day (at 2000 prices) to use a motorway that is as quick (almost) for a HGV as a National road.
So now with 2010 prices it'd be tipping 25 euro a day, or 125 a week
or 6 THOUSAND EURO over a 48 working week year.

so if you ask me, you will still see the Hauliers on the streets of Kells/ Navan and Dunsaughlin for many years to come!!

corktina

a business expense, deductable from profits...add in the extra diesel and wear and tear (not to mention time ) spent avoiding the toll,and it evens it up a bit doesnt it....

thebman

BrianD wrote: »

It's a pity that the tolling structure doesn't give Burger1979 an incentive to use public transport. If the southern toll on the M3 was moved further south then Burger could use the P&R take the train into the city and walk across to the Green Line and be out in Sandyford. Might take him or her a little longer then car but with reduced stress and tolls!

Public transport is more stressful than driving IMO. Standing for an hour with barely space to stand or air to breathe is stressful.

Public transport is fine if you can get a seat, least your guaranteed that in a car with the radio for comfort and you get to where you want to go and remain dry.

spacetweek

Note: The vast majority of people using the M3 will only be paying one toll, not two. The second toll I believe is only paid by people coming from Kells or further out.

Anyone who refuses to pay a toll loses their right to complain about long commutes on poor quality roads. This road was promised for decades so I urge everyone to use it and stop shooting yourselves in the foot.

However! Additional things I'd add:
- Expedite Navan Phase 2 railway - that way Navan people don't have to drive to Pace to get the railway (and therefore pay a toll)
- Free parking at Navan railway station to encourage use of it
- Big push to get people cycling to Navan station - lots of sheltered bike parking and bike lanes in the town
- Continue with Metro north and DART interconnector - these are necessary to allow Navan line passengers to make quick connections when arriving in the centre of Dublin - eliminates walking south to catch Luas Green Line etc.

This way, people using public transport aren't penalised for doing so. Only people who actually need to drive would be doing so.

thebman wrote: »

Public transport is more stressful than driving IMO. Standing for an hour with barely space to stand or air to breathe is stressful.

When it's poor quality it's like that. It's not meant to be poor quality. If we invested in it appropriately, it would be less stressful than driving.