Help - Self Build vs Contractor...Am I missing something?

voodoo

Hi all,

Hope someone can help me here with a massive dilemma I am faced with. We will soon begin a build (find out from planning this day week) and have been getting quotes for this from Contractors and also pricing up individual tradesmen/materials. There seems to be a massive difference in pricing so I am assuming that we are missing something huge. Below is a breakdown of what we have gotten from tradesmen/materials including all ancillary costs such as Stamp Duty, Kitchen, Sanitaryware, shrubs, fencing etc -


PURIFLOW 3121.25
CO COUNCIL 2000
ESB 1700

FOUNDATIONS & WALLS
Labour 20000
Materials 12000

PLUMBER
Labour incl material 30000
Bathroom suites 5000

ELECTRIC
Labour incl materials 7000

CARPENTRY
Timber 7000
Labour 12371.5
Slates 6000
1st & 2nd fitting 2621.85

PLASTER
Labour/ materials 16500

KITCHEN 15000
STAIRS- mdf red deal 5000

STONE
Materials 1200
Labour 2500

FIRES 3500
WINDOWS 12000
Fascia & Soffet incl labour 5000

FRONT DOOR 2000
INTERNAL DOORS 1500
FLOORS 10000
STONES 4000
ALARM 2000
SOLAR 0
STAMP DUTY 14000
ENGINEER 1850
SOLICITORS 2000
Fence 2500
Shrubs 2000
Scaffolding 2000
Miscellaneous 6650

Total Figure: €220,014.60

Plumbing includes UFH with heat condensing boiler and solar system, water softener, etc.

If we compare this to pricing we have been getting from contractors there is a massive, massive gap and I am struggling to find out where it is! The prices we have got for what looks like a comparative spec (and possibly not as good - stairs, windows etc not as good) are as follows -

Quote 1 - €210,000
Quote 2 - €209,000
Quote 3 - €208,000
Quote 4 - €350,000 - a little higher spec but already discounted

If however we add all the other costs not included such as kitchen, sanitaryware, stamp duty, shrubs, fencing, flooring, alarm, engineer, solicitors, a misc fee, puriflow, ESB, Council we then add up another €77k to these figures, which if we take the lower of the contractor quotes, we are then at €288k for the build!

Are we missing something huge from "our spec" or could there really be such a gap between self build and contractor in the current environment?

voodoo

Also, should have pointed out that the tradesmen prices for labour are the initial quotes I have recieved so there may be a little extra negotiation on their pricing (in fact some actually said to us that their price is "negotiable".

I can also post a sample spec that we recieved back from a contractor if anyone wishes to see a proper comparison of what they are quoting vs direct labour!

Clarelassie

Just two things missing that the contractors add:
1 - their profit ( little bits everywhere that add up)
2 - 13.5% vat on the total.

We are going down the contractor route and still find it hard to take the amount of vat that we have to pay on everything. For your pricing this would be in the region of 20k.

Don't know enough to comment if you have missed anything else in your pricing. Not sure if you have included insurance in your total - can be worth a few k as well.

Good luck with your decision. We went with a contractor as we didn't have either enough time or knowledge to do the build ourselves and also liked the insurance of having homebond insurance on the build down the line. From discussions with friends and family that did the self build route, we would have been able to save in the region of 40k.

mr_edge_to_you

Hey, it seems that we are in similiar position to clarelassie. We opted for a contractor. We accept that it is more expensive but by god it must be easier. 10 weeks of building and our roof is going on. When the lads finished digging the foundations there was a truck with concrete ready to pour. All the materials arrive on site at least 3 days before they were needed- fantastic organisation. By going the direct labour route you become the project manager, all these calls have to be made by you. You have a long list of jobs there, think of the amount of time you will spend on the phone. Personally in the current climate i'd be weary of doing that on my employers time. Most people I know who have gone the direct labour route have gone over budget too, we have a fixed contract (we actually got one drawn up professionally). The builder will also direct liaise with our sign off engineer in relation to all aspects of the build, another massive plus because he the engineer is quite fussy. Mind you that's what he's being paid for! Finally you need to be on site EVERY day to make sure the work is being done correctly. Even in our own house because the contractor checks every day one or two issues were rectified immediately. Ultimately with direct labour you may save money but by god do you earn that saving. I also beleive that you really need to able to contribute something tangible to the build such as Blockwork, carpentry etc to save significantly with direct labour,i have nothing like that.

voodoo

Thanks for the comments guys. I know we didn't include a few things like insulation and insurance but even still... I am finding it really difficult to justify paying out between €60k and €70k extra for a contractor! I mean, I would nearly look to hire a project manager and pay him €20k or something to check onsite every day for a few hours and still come out with a massive savings!

Just really looking for any experts views to see if there really is something major we have missed from our direct labour spec!

kkelliher

Voodoo


You list has items that the builders will not have included in their price such as:

STAMP DUTY 14000
ENGINEER 1850
SOLICITORS 2000
Fence 2500
Shrubs 2000
Co Council 2000
ESB 1700

and I would think they also have not included for the actual cost of a kitchen or the fires and maybe not even the treatment system as this is usually done well in advance of the builder for planning reasons.

Just a quess but you should work up a schedule and get the builders to price that so all items including your own price will be on a like with like. A Quantity Surveyor will assist you with this.

Best of luck

Keith

Jollyman

Voodo,

There is those type of savings to be made on direct labour builds in my opionion, but you will end up spending a lot of time at it, making calls organising deliveries and so on, at the start of our build i was loving all this, towards the end i was hoping it would all finish, overall it was worth it but not an exprience i would like to repeat for a long long time. Direct labour in general will also take you more time to complete if you have no time constraints thats fine if you do a contractor is probably more suitable.
Keith, voodo had made the point that the money for fees and so on are included in his breakdown giving him around €60k of savings based on builders returned prices.

www.selfbuildardmore.blogspot.com

stephentbb2000

Hi,
Just finishing a 2400 sq foot build by contractor. We could of saved 20 to 30% if we had of went direct labour.

The questions we had to ask ourselves were,
1. Did we have the time or commitment to supervise the build? Trust me you would need to be there 24/7 to watch for short cuts or for mistakes.
2. Did we have the knowledge to cope with a build?
3. Did we have the ability or co-ordinate tradesmen to arrive on time and when to arrive to avoid costly delays.
4. If you are going direct labour the site is your responsibility.

We could not answer yes to these questions so we chose a contractor. What i would advise you to do is to knock a % of the quotes you received and ask for improvements on the specifications. Which ever builder fits the bill and comes up trumps is your man!

Any questions, drop me a line as i am failry up to date with house building at the moment.

mr_edge_to_you

stephentbb2000 wrote: »

Hi,
Just finishing a 2400 sq foot build by contractor. We could of saved 20 to 30% if we had of went direct labour.

The questions we had to ask ourselves were,
1. Did we have the time or commitment to supervise the build? Trust me you would need to be there 24/7 to watch for short cuts or for mistakes.
2. Did we have the knowledge to cope with a build?
3. Did we have the ability or co-ordinate tradesmen to arrive on time and when to arrive to avoid costly delays.
4. If you are going direct labour the site is your responsibility.

We could not answer yes to these questions so we chose a contractor. What i would advise you to do is to knock a % of the quotes you received and ask for improvements on the specifications. Which ever builder fits the bill and comes up trumps is your man!

Any questions, drop me a line as i am failry up to date with house building at the moment.

We answered No to all 4! Good post there Stephen!

mendel

Giving this serious consideration at the moment. We are doing a renovation project, foundations, blockwork (requiring some remedial work), roof all there, the rest basically needs to be done.

My preference unless persuaded otherwise at the moment is to use a project manager. Do you think that can give you the peace of mind that you get from a contractor?

Can give time to the build, site is very close to our home but know nothing about construction (really nothing)

on 200k project would you imagine that a project manager will cost 20k, would we still make considerable saving over a contractor?

I have concerns with the quality of materials that a contractor might use? I look around my own house here (estate build) and can see the lack of quality in materials and finish i might add.

fathersdaughter

Hi voodoo

Can i ask the size of the house?

Thanks

8kvscdpglqnyr4

In a similar position at the moment too and this thread is making interesting reading.

stephentbb2000 wrote: »

The questions we had to ask ourselves were,
1. Did we have the time or commitment to supervise the build? Trust me you would need to be there 24/7 to watch for short cuts or for mistakes.

IMO a contractor will want to take shortcuts too ...

Poor Uncle Tom

Just a point to remember. If you decide to go direct labour, you are appointed the building contractor by default, with all the responsabilities that entails. This should be remembered when you are thinking about things such as the structural guarantee, defects liability period, etc. Ignorance is no defence when it comes to issues of blame.

mendel

poor uncle tom & co

re your comment about responsibility for the build - if you are per se in charge of the build how do you go about guaranteeing the work of all the individual contractors?

How does homebond work or is it even applicable?

Are you basically stuck with suing someone through their professional indemnity if you have a problem with the quality of their work?

Voodoo - i note you don't include painting in your estimate

sinnerboy

If you go direct labour - YOU are the builder . If you ever sell on - YOU are responsible for defects. If someone has an accident on the site - YOU are the employer .

You can appear to save money vs hiring a builder - but at considerable risk .

Poor Uncle Tom

It is my opinion that you need a great deal of constructional knowledge to manage a build or you run the very real risk of being run roughshod over, it can be a very expensive learning curve. You need to speak to your architect/AT/engineer in great detail. It is not a decision to take lightly.

mr_edge_to_you

Trent Black Shinbone wrote: »

In a similar position at the moment too and this thread is making interesting reading.


IMO a contractor will want to take shortcuts too ...

I wouldn't agree. We have a contractor building our house - his attention to detail and planning/organisation is amazing. He ensures everything is perfect as he is directly responsible for the end product - everything falls into his lap. If something goes wrong in a year or two with the house I can go straight back to my contractor and regardless of whether it is a structural, electrical, plumbing issue he is responsible as he was the employer of subcontractors. There is no ambiguity as to who's responsible! It's in his interest to ensure it is done right.

I don't think its a case of people taking shortcuts. I think it's a case of who's responsible for the build. Even with our build there was one or two genuine mistakes but we were able to say to the contractor "listen...this is not what we agreed nor is it what we want, it needs to be changed" and to his credit it was. The key thing is that all of the project is his repsonsiblity.

stephentbb2000

Reference home bond, this is a club that builders can join for a yearly fee. How it works is, they sent out an engineer with private indemnity insurance at foundation levels and again they in inspect the house when the roof is completed. They will then give you a ten year guarantee for structural defects.

If you go direct labour and notice problems down the line lets for say for example with the plastering, you will probably have two hopes of getting it rectified (no hope + no hope). Allot of tradesmen don't have insurance to cover their work.

Reference short cuts, all tradesmen and contractors will try and take the easiest route possible and will do their best to save money (for themselves). With a contractor you can hold him accountable but with tradesmen for direct labour you are accountable.