Breakdown of Numbers and Player Origins in Irish Provincial Squads.

siltirocker

Tempted to do this for a while, let me know what you think.


Connacht: 30 Senior Players

12 x Connacht (Im counting Brett Wilkinson in that)

9 x Other Irish Players
- 3 x Munster
- 3 x Leinster
- 2 x Exiles
- 1 x Ulster

3 x Other Northern Hemisphere Players
- 3 x English

6 x Southern Hemisphere Players
- 3 x Kiwi
- 2 x Samoan
- 1 x Aussie



Leinster: 34 Senior Players

23 x Leinster (counting Chris Keane)

5 x Other Irish Players
- 5 x Munster

1 x Other Northern Hemisphere Players
- 1 x Scotish

5 x Southern Hemisphere Players
- 2 x Saffa
- 1 x Aussie
- 1 x Fijian
- 1 x Cook Islander



Munster: 38 Senior Players

26 x Munster (counting Manning now)

5 x Other Irish Players
- 4 x Leinster (counting Denis Hurley & Ian Dowling)
- 1 x Connacht

1 x Other Northern Hemisphere Players
- 1 x French

6 x Southern Hemisphere Players
- 3 x Kiwi (including Morland who'll be gone by Christmas, , probably.)
- 1 x Saffa
- 1 x Tongan
- 1 x Aussie



Ulster: 35 Senior Players

22 x Ulster (counting Isaac Boss & Tom McCourt)

6 x Other Irish Players
- 5 x Exiles
- 1 x Leinster

2 x Other Northern Hemisphere Players
- 1 x Scotish
- 1 x English

5 x Southern Hemisphere Players
- 2 x Saffa
- 2 x Aussie
- 1 x Fijian




Im sure many allocations will be contested and let me know if you believe these numbers wrong.

Personally a poor amount of home based players in Connacht just above a third of the squad.
Nice to see the other 3 provinces have about 5 Irish players not originally based in there camps. Steady figure. Same with the amount of SH players in all 4 provinces.

danthefan

Keogh, Hogan, Ross, Reddan... who am I missing?

siltirocker

danthefan wrote: »

Keogh, Hogan, Ross, Reddan... who am I missing?

John Fogarty.

Risteard

Ronan and Jones. If you're including Dowling then you should count Hurley as well becasue they're both from Leinster but never played for them. Unless I'm missing someone else from Leinster.

Edit: Though I suppose you could count Hurley as Munster as he went to Munchins. It depends on how you're judging players. Where they were born or who they first played for.

PhatPiggins

Risteard wrote: »

Ronan and Jones. If you're including Dowling then you should count Hurley as well becasue they're both from Leinster but never played for them. Unless I'm missing someone else from Leinster.

Edit: Though I suppose you could count Hurley as Munster as he went to Munchins. It depends on how you're judging players. Where they were born or who they first played for.

I think who they've played for outweighs place of birth. Did Mike Ross ever play for Munster in a meaningful match? He was fairly average before he went to Quins, cant ever remember him in a red jersey.

Good list though stilt, makes for interesting reading.

Amazotheamazing

How on earth can you pretend Flannery is from Connacht, born there but moved to Limerick before primary school and went to Munchins. And if you are going to count Flannery as from Connacht, surely you should apply the same standards and say Hurley is from Munster, parents from Cork, schooled (in part) in Limerick, UCC for college etc.

irishbucsfan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

How on earth can you pretend Flannery is from Connacht, born there but moved to Limerick before primary school and went to Munchins. And if you are going to count Flannery as from Connacht, surely you should apply the same standards and say Hurley is from Munster, parents from Cork, schooled (in part) in Limerick, UCC for college etc.

I think the way it goes is that if a player has spent any time living in another province then they're being considered an "other irish" player. In which case Tony Buckley is a Leinster man

And interesting to see there's no Welsh playing in Ireland

Amazotheamazing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think the way it goes is that if a player has spent any time living in another province then they're being considered an "other irish" player. In which case Tony Buckley is a Leinster man

And interesting to see there's no Welsh playing in Ireland

Two years in Newbridge would never be enough to wash Cork out of a man, if it was they'd all be at it.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Two years in Newbridge would never be enough to wash Cork out of a man, if it was they'd all be at it.

I've been to Cork a couple of times and I still don't feel clean.

I suppose you wouldn't know the breakdowns of the other ML teams?

Found that stuff really interesting.

spoon

Makes for an interesting read. The numbers between Munster and Leinster are very close.

siltirocker

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

How on earth can you pretend Flannery is from Connacht, born there but moved to Limerick before primary school and went to Munchins. And if you are going to count Flannery as from Connacht, surely you should apply the same standards and say Hurley is from Munster, parents from Cork, schooled (in part) in Limerick, UCC for college etc.

I was under the idea he moved just before secondary school and his professional career started at Connacht. That's why i put him there.
I said at the start the thread feel free to comment on these things and i will edit as such. Just as Hurley was only put down as a player outside of due to Risteard's post.
Sure Gavin Duffy was born in Connacht lived in Tipp for all his teen years then at the same time as Flannery joined Connacht. Flannery moved to Munster, Duffy to Quinns. Yet again alot of this is loose and open to opinion and change. Feel free to read Munster as 27 Munster, 2 Leinster, 1 Connacht.

You will also notice the one's open for debate or one's with understandable disagreement like your own on Jerry have been placed in brackets to highlight this.

siltirocker

spoon wrote: »

Makes for an interesting read. The numbers between Munster and Leinster are very close.

I don't know about that.

22 Leinster heads if you exclude Chris Keane to Munster's 28 if you include Hurley, Dowling, Flannery and Manning (whom many will).

Ulster's 22 Ulster men with 4 Exiles and 1 Leinster youngster show's essentially no interaction of players with other Provinces. And Connacht's Mike McComish is the only Ulster player outside of Ulster contracted to the IRFU. MAD.

Amazotheamazing

siltirocker wrote: »

I was under the idea he moved just before secondary school and his professional career started at Connacht. That's why i put him there.
I said at the start the thread feel free to comment on these things and i will edit as such. Just as Hurley was only put down as a player outside of due to Risteard's post.
Sure Gavin Duffy was born in Connacht lived in Tipp for all his teen years then at the same time as Flannery joined Connacht. Flannery moved to Munster, Duffy to Quinns. Yet again alot of this is loose and open to opinion and change. Feel free to read Munster as 27 Munster, 2 Leinster, 1 Connacht.

You will also notice the one's open for debate or one's with understandable disagreement like your own on Jerry have been placed in brackets to highlight this.

Afaik, Flannery got some Munster caps while he was in UCC before going to Connacht, there used to be a picture of him scoring for Munster in his father's bar when he was still with Connacht. Remember thinking how slight he looked but fairly certain it wasn't an underage team.

siltirocker

Another quick one on how many each have contributed to all four combined.

Connacht 13 (including Riordan)

Leinster 31 (including Ross, Ryan, Hurley, Dowling, Keatley, Carr, Hagan & Willis)

Munster 33 (including Cronin, Matthews, Touhy, J Fogarty, Keogh, Hogan, Ross, Reddan)

Ulster 23 (including McComish)

Exiles 7

Close at the top but give Munster Hurley, Dowling and Manning and their numbers are well up there. Connacht piss poor it has to be said but the reason's for that are a whole different kettle of fish.

siltirocker

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Afaik, Flannery got some Munster caps while he was in UCC before going to Connacht, there used to be a picture of him scoring for Munster in his father's bar when he was still with Connacht. Remember thinking how slight he looked but fairly certain it wasn't an underage team.

I was sitting on the wire about him any way, edit coming up.

anonymous_joe

siltirocker wrote: »

Another quick one on how many each have contributed to all four combined.

Connacht 14 (including Flannery and Riordan)


Leinster 31 (including Ross, Ryan, Hurley, Dowling, Keatley, Carr, Hagan & Willis)

Munster 32 (including Cronin, Matthews, Touhy, J Fogarty, Keogh, Hogan, Ross, Reddan)

Ulster 23 (including McComish)

Exiles 6

Close at the top but give Munster Flannery, Hurley, Dowling and Manning and their numbers are well up there. Connacht piss poor it has to be said but the reason's for that are a whole different kettle of fish.

Munster massively overrepresented, really really impressive.

Ulster meanwhile, is just depressingly awful. They're obviously losing a huge number of players somewhere. (Probably between school and uni on the mainland vibe)

siltirocker

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Munster massively overrepresented, really really impressive.

Ulster meanwhile, is just depressingly awful. They're obviously losing a huge number of players somewhere. (Probably between school and uni on the mainland vibe)

For certain reasons that i feel i might get banned for saying but it is commonly known, Ulster get a lot of Exiles (Declan Fitzpatrick, Justin Fitzpatrick, Andy Kyriacou, Ed O'Donaghue and Dan Touhy) - (Campbell and Maggs too in recent memory) and alot of there players don't go to other provinces they go to England or Wales (Andress(?), McComish(although at Connacht now), Wilson, Best, Bowe etc.)

Connacht lads to to French 2nd division teams and Air New Zealand CUP teams. :P

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Munster massively overrepresented, really really impressive.

Ulster meanwhile, is just depressingly awful. They're obviously losing a huge number of players somewhere. (Probably between school and uni on the mainland vibe)

It's worth comparing the relative strengths of the AIL clubs in the various provinces. Munster's clubs are by far the strongest, then Leinster, Ulster and Connacht. The decline in Ulster club rugby is the key to understanding the decline of Ulster rugby, imo.

Last weekend Flannery played a half for Shannon in a friendly against Galwegians, shows how much playing for them still means to him, a lot of pro players would cry off and just wait til they called to a ML match but Flannery is happy to show his club committments. That sort of club commitment is crucial to Munster's success, imo.

siltirocker

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It's worth comparing the relative strengths of the AIL clubs in the various provinces. Munster's clubs are by far the strongest, then Leinster, Ulster and Connacht. The decline in Ulster club rugby is the key to understanding the decline of Ulster rugby, imo.

Last weekend Flannery played a half for Shannon in a friendly against Galwegians, shows how much playing for them still means to him, a lot of pro players would cry off and just wait til they called to a ML match but Flannery is happy to show his club committments. That sort of club commitment is crucial to Munster's success, imo.

+1 Here, here.

P.S Danny Riordan at Corinthians was meant to have been a large factor in McGahan picking him up for Munster, while Michael Bradley (could be bull**** not a great source, but sounds right) thought the guy played for Bucs. Just shows you doesn't it.

Amazotheamazing

siltirocker wrote: »

+1 Here, here.

P.S Danny Riordan at Corinthians was meant to have been a large factor in McGahan picking him up for Munster, while Michael Bradley (could be bull**** not a great source, but sounds right) thought the guy played for Bucs. Just shows you doesn't it.

Your source is wrong I think. Riordan started out with with Corinthians but moved to Buccaneers (maybe when Moylan was there?) and has now moved to UL/Bohs. He's in a tough spot, after years of very average backs, Munster have suddenly assembled a pretty serious set of backs.

That being said, McGahan is paying a bit of attention to the AIL, there's been a few players on the fringes on the Munster team due to their performances in the AIL, O'Donnell in particular.

SpAcEd OuT

siltirocker wrote: »

Munster: 37 Senior Players

25 x Munster

5 x Other Irish Players
- 4 x Leinster (counting Denis Hurley & Ian Dowling)
- 1 x Connacht

1 x Other Northern Hemisphere Players
- 1 x French

6 x Southern Hemisphere Players
- 3 x Kiwi
- 1 x Saffa
- 1 x Tongan
- 1 x Aussie

Missing Morland or did he go back when TO'L became fit? Hes not listed on the Munster rugby site anyway.

SpAcEd OuT

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It's worth comparing the relative strengths of the AIL clubs in the various provinces. Munster's clubs are by far the strongest, then Leinster, Ulster and Connacht. The decline in Ulster club rugby is the key to understanding the decline of Ulster rugby, imo.

I don't know if your statement of by far is completely accurate. I mean last season's AIL table finished with St Mary's and Clontarf losing out on points difference to the winners Cork Con and Blackrock were one loss away from beating Cork Con on points difference. Right now it is extremely tight in the AIL.
Ulster club rugby however......well the less said the better.

Amazotheamazing

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

I don't know if your statement of by far is completely accurate. I mean last season's AIL table finished with St Mary's and Clontarf losing out on points difference to the winners Cork Con and Blackrock were one loss away from beating Cork Con on points difference. Right now it is extremely tight in the AIL.
Ulster club rugby however......well the less said the better.

And Clontarf have responded by buying in a completely new team, which is pretty disgraceful behaviour. How many of clontarf's players have come through their underage section?

profitius

Amazotheamazing wrote:

That being said, McGahan is paying a bit of attention to the AIL, there's been a few players on the fringes on the Munster team due to their performances in the AIL, O'Donnell in particular.

Also in the A team a guy called Cusack started at 10 ahead of Andrew Burke so it looks like McGahan is keeping an eye on players.

Amazotheamazing

Yeah, that was strange about Cusack, one of my mates plays with him, well, trains with him anyway and he delighted when he was called up to the Munster squad for the preseason games but he was also pretty surprised, will be interesting to see how it goes. It's especially odd because when Burke was out recently, we used Deasy as our fourth choice outhalf, not cusack, so burke was ahead of Deasy and is now behind Cusack for the A's?

profitius

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Yeah, that was strange about Cusack, one of my mates plays with him, well, trains with him anyway and he delighted when he was called up to the Munster squad for the preseason games but he was also pretty surprised, will be interesting to see how it goes. It's especially odd because when Burke was out recently, we used Deasy as our fourth choice outhalf, not cusack, so burke was ahead of Deasy and is now behind Cusack for the A's?

McGahan must see something he likes and could be given Cusack a chance in the A team to see what he can do.

What did your mate think about Cusacks ability?

Amazotheamazing

profitius wrote: »

McGahan must see something he likes and could be given Cusack a chance in the A team to see what he can do.

What did your mate think about Cusacks ability?

He reckons Cusack's a good player, but not likely to make it to Munster's level. That being said, I'd take McGahan's opinion of him over my mates.

siltirocker

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Missing Morland or did he go back when TO'L became fit? Hes not listed on the Munster rugby site anyway.

EDIT coming.

dingbat

siltirocker wrote: »

I don't know about that.

22 Leinster heads if you exclude Chris Keane to Munster's 28 if you include Hurley, Dowling, Flannery and Manning (whom many will).

Ulster's 22 Ulster men with 4 Exiles and 1 Leinster youngster show's essentially no interaction of players with other Provinces. And Connacht's Mike McComish is the only Ulster player outside of Ulster contracted to the IRFU. MAD.

And you would exclude Chris Keane why exactly? He's from Dublin, went to school in Dublin, played schools and club rugby in Dublin, then went to Bucs and Connacht to get a game.

If you're excluding Keane as a Leinsterman, while including Manning as a Munsterman, then something is very, very screwy

Tim Robbins

Chris Keane is from Skerries and went to Belvo.

profitius

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

He reckons Cusack's a good player, but not likely to make it to Munster's level. That being said, I'd take McGahan's opinion of him over my mates.

Yeah. I heard before people who played with Stephen Ireland at underage level saying that he looked average and didn't stand out. Sometimes it takes a skilled coach to recognise talent. McGahan is good at his job and he thinks there must be potential in Cusack.

At underage level everybody was talking about Jermey Staunton some years back. He was highly rated but it was ROG that came through to be the better player. It happens all the time.

siltirocker

dingbat wrote: »

And you would exclude Chris Keane why exactly? He's from Dublin, went to school in Dublin, played schools and club rugby in Dublin, then went to Bucs and Connacht to get a game.

If you're excluding Keane as a Leinsterman, while including Manning as a Munsterman, then something is very, very screwy

I have him down as Leinster cause that's where he is from i only put that down cause my friends made the point that although yes he's from Drogheda (not Dublin) and went to Belvo for two years. He was never on Leinster youth teams and made his name in Athlone and started his development career and played most of his pro career to date west of the Shannon.

Jeremy Manning is registered as an Irish Player and has represented Ireland at Varsity games. Like McCourt, Wilkinson, Boss etc.

Amazotheamazing

siltirocker wrote: »

I have him down as Leinster cause that's where he is from i only put that down cause my friends made the point that although yes he's from Drogheda (not Dublin) and went to Belvo for two years. He was never on Leinster youth teams and made his name in Athlone and started his development career and played most of his pro career to date west of the Shannon.

Jeremy Manning is registered as an Irish Player and has represented Ireland at Varsity games. Like McCourt, Wilkinson, Boss etc.

Difference between Court and Boss on one hand and Manning and Wilkinson on the other. Court and Boss have Irish grandparents and so were always qualified to play for Ireland. Manning and Wilkinson only qualified due to spending three years here.

anonymous_joe

profitius wrote: »

At underage level everybody was talking about Jermey Staunton some years back. He was highly rated but it was ROG that came through to be the better player. It happens all the time.

This interests me, because when you think about it, he has become a decent pro at one of the world's biggest clubs, and yet we don't recognise that as much of an achievement.

And yet, you're right, he's never reached the same level as O'Gara.

Bit ot, but it interests me. Sorry if it's too ot.

dingbat

siltirocker wrote: »

I have him down as Leinster cause that's where he is from i only put that down cause my friends made the point that although yes he's from Drogheda (not Dublin) and went to Belvo for two years. He was never on Leinster youth teams and made his name in Athlone and started his development career and played most of his pro career to date west of the Shannon.

Jeremy Manning is registered as an Irish Player and has represented Ireland at Varsity games. Like McCourt, Wilkinson, Boss etc.

Chris is from Skerries, went to Belvo along with his brother. Didn't get through the schools rugby system too well because he was marginally overage all the way up. Put on a growth spurt after leaving school but by then he'd never been recognised as a "player" to keep an eye on for any Leinster representative team.

He went to Bucs, and Connacht, to get a break. But that makes him no less of a Leinsterman.

siltirocker

dingbat wrote: »

He went to Bucs, and Connacht, to get a break. But that makes him no less of a Leinsterman.

I agree, many wouldn't. Ian Dowling is a bit like that, from Leinster, schooled there, club there. Munster developed. I put him down as Leinster,many Munster fans would disagree.

On a side note, i wouldn't quite say he went there for a break, he moved to Athlone to go to college, joined the local club and while playing with them got picked up by Connacht. I don't think his reasoning behind the move was really Rugby related that much.

stephen_n

siltirocker wrote: »

I don't know about that.

22 Leinster heads if you exclude Chris Keane to Munster's 28 if you include Hurley, Dowling, Flannery and Manning (whom many will).

Ulster's 22 Ulster men with 4 Exiles and 1 Leinster youngster show's essentially no interaction of players with other Provinces. And Connacht's Mike McComish is the only Ulster player outside of Ulster contracted to the IRFU. MAD.

Munster have a bigger squad by 4 players though even if you adjust it to 22 and 28 it still only makes two in the difference. Interesting that Leinster have the least over seas players and Connacht have the most!

yupyup7up

I used to play with Declan Cusack at thomond. Hes a class fly half and hes strong too. A lot of potential in the man beleive me

Amazotheamazing

yupyup7up wrote: »

I used to play with Declan Cusack at thomond. Hes a class fly half and hes strong too. A lot of potential in the man beleive me

Fair enough. What level do you think he could reach?

yupyup7up

Well if he keeps doing what hes doing he'll get a few caps at senior level at least! hes a lot bigger than ur average ten and ha good work ethic as well

Amazotheamazing

yupyup7up wrote: »

Well if he keeps doing what hes doing he'll get a few caps at senior level at least! hes a lot bigger than ur average ten and ha good work ethic as well

Do you mean with Munster or Ireland?

Would be great to see more talent come through.

Amazotheamazing

Seems mcGahan reads here, Cusack gets a training contract with Munster.

http://munsterrugby.ie/news/6640.php

Don't think there's much money in it for him, but it might be a good starting spot.