Box Turning?

p

Hey all,

Has this been discussed before. I wonder what any of the cycling campaign's take on it is? Anyone know. It seems to be the way of turning here in Copenhagen, and generally feels a lot safer than whisking out into the middle of the road.

http://bikeclass.swent.net/Be_Predictable.htm

Any thoughts?

Lumen

tomasrojo

There's only one junction I use that manoeuvre on, and it seems to be exactly equivalent to that diagram, albeit mirror-reversed (driving on the left, rather than the right).

It's the junction of Summerhill Parade and the North Circular Road, heading south down S. Parade and turning west onto NCR. I sometimes do the junction in the standard vehicular manner, queuing up to turn right, but the vehicle discipline in that junction is so bad that I prefer to expend an extra minute and do the manoeuvre you've described above.

A particular problem with that junction is that motorists here who are facing each other, both waiting to do right turns, can't make up their minds whether they should pass left door facing left door, or right door facing right door.

tomasrojo

I should add that for smaller and less busy junctions I'd regard that manoeuvre as far too time-consuming.

Captain Havoc

I don't feel it would work in Ireland, you'd just be mowed down by the car behind you that's going straight on.

tomasrojo

jerseyeire wrote: »

I don't feel it would work in Ireland, you'd just be mowed down by the car behind you that's going straight on.

Not in my experience. The car behind you as you start the manoeuvre either thinks that you're turning left or going straight on. So you're ok at the start of the junction (just don't place yourself so far to the left that they can left-hook you). At the far side you drift over to the left, just making sure that no-one is on your left. Then you line up with the the junction you actually want to go to and wait for the lights to change.

It's a problem when there are a load of cyclists waiting in the left arm of the junction though, as there doesn't seem to be a polite way of positioning yourself. You can't very well go cycling the wrong way down the street to place yourself at the back of the line. The junction I use it at doesn't present that problem ever, really. Usually only one cyclist in the left arm, if any.

CheGuedara

jerseyeire wrote: »

I don't feel it would work in Ireland, you'd just be mowed down by the car behind you that's going straight on.

+1

Taking the lane, ensuring your safety and turning as per normal is the best way to go.

DirkVoodoo

Yup, take the lane for me too. Why shouldn't you? I've never had a problem and the only time I got beeped was some guy in a van wanting me to break a red light.

tomasrojo

CheGuedara wrote: »

+1

Taking the lane, ensuring your safety and turning as per normal is the best way to go.

As I said, there's only one junction I've ever felt the need to do this manoeuvre. I do the standard VC turn everywhere else. I tried both and found turning at this one junction less stressful using this slightly time-consuming manoeuvre.

CheGuedara

tomasrojo wrote: »

As I said, there's only one junction I've ever felt the need to do this manoeuvre. I do the standard VC turn everywhere else. I tried both and found turning at this one junction less stressful using this slightly time-consuming manoeuvre.

I wasn't suggesting you're wrong at all. That junction is a complete PITA, esp with the confusion if motorists both want to turn right (it's like a standoff or a shoot out or something: who'll blink first!!!) and maybe the OPs routine is less frought in this instance but in the greater scheme really the OPs idea just isn't a runner when applied to Ireland IMO.

tomasrojo

CheGuedara wrote: »

That junction is a complete PITA, esp with the confusion if motorists both want to turn right (it's like a standoff or a shoot out or something: who'll blink first!!

The junction maybe could use some extra light sequences to allow southbound vehicles to turn right without contention and then alternately to allow northbound vehicles to turn right.

tomasrojo

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I've never had a problem and the only time I got beeped was some guy in a van wanting me to break a red light.

That happened to me too. The driver was very indignant that I didn't break the light and allow him to do likewise. Probably very confused that I hadn't broken the light.

CheGuedara

tomasrojo wrote: »

The junction maybe could use some extra light sequences to allow southbound vehicles to turn right without contention and then alternately to allow northbound vehicles to turn right.

They had to do something like that back home with a junction alright. Can't remember the system exactly but it seems to work ok except for the feeling that its a long sequence.

-K2-

I use that manoeuvre in high-speed/medium-load traffic.

When there are few cars it isn't much of a problem to move into the centre of the lane early while signalling to turn right. If there is heavy traffic it is fairly easy to shuffle across the front junction when the traffic isn't moving to take the lane.

If there is a moderate amount of traffic moving at speed then it can be difficult to move into the centre of the lane/right-hand lane and so following the posted diagram works well.

DirkVoodoo

tomasrojo wrote: »

That happened to me too. The driver was very indignant that I didn't break the light and allow him to do likewise. Probably very confused that I hadn't broken the light.

Oh of course, I mean they expect us to do it according to the Herald article

kenmc

I occasionally do that if I miss a right filter,and I know that the next light sequence will favour me if I do the box turn. Usually do a 'normal' turn though, like I would in a car.

p

jerseyeire wrote: »

I don't feel it would work in Ireland, you'd just be mowed down by the car behind you that's going straight on.

Well, the point is that you stop, and wait for the lights to change for traffic going the other direction to get the green. It's mainly used at junctions with lights, at t junctions and the like there just seems be a careful negotiation with eye-contact.

CheGuedara wrote: »

but in the greater scheme really the OPs idea just isn't a runner when applied to Ireland IMO.

What makes Ireland so different that it doesn't apply? It's certainly easier to make this style of manoeuvre, I must try time I'm back in Dublin.

tomasrojo

It's just overkill for most junctions. You have to wait for two changes of light instead of one. Where the junction isn't full of cars turning every which way contending for priority, you'd be perfectly safe doing a standard vehicular turn.

I think it might be a more common manoeuvre in Denmark because people there don't cycle vehicularly, presumably because bikes have their own infrastructure and signals.

The people at copenhagenize.com are very dismissive of the idea of vehicular cycling, actually.

CheGuedara

p wrote: »

What makes Ireland so different that it doesn't apply? It's certainly easier to make this style of manoeuvre, I must try time I'm back in Dublin.

To answer the first point - if you search this forum you'll find threads that illustrate the point of view held by some motorists in Ireland towards cyclists. So there's an ingrained attitudinal issue that would need to be overcome or the cyclist taking your Copenhagen style of cornering would make very slow headway on their journey or be creamed by someone who isn't aware of the manouvre being made.

To answer the second point - Ah, no. Taking the lane, indicating and proceeding through the junction is definitely easier than going through the junction, stopping & turning, waiting for the sequence to change and proceeding straight.

p

CheGuedara wrote: »

To answer the first point - if you search this forum you'll find threads that illustrate the point of view held by some motorists in Ireland towards cyclists. So there's an ingrained attitudinal issue that would need to be overcome or the cyclist taking your Copenhagen style of cornering would make very slow headway on their journey or be creamed by someone who isn't aware of the manoeuvre being made.

Doing a box turn is less likely to cause a car driver hassle. Maybe a little confusion perhaps, but you're not in the way of a driver, and you're not crossing into lanes of traffic.

CheGuedara wrote: »

To answer the second point - Ah, no. Taking the lane, indicating and proceeding through the junction is definitely easier than going through the junction, stopping & turning, waiting for the sequence to change and proceeding straight.

I think we need to draw a distinction between what's easier for you and what's easier, safer and less intimidating for other people. Most people on this forum are not the 'average cyclist' and I think it's important when discussing issues that would affect everyone we don't think of it from our own perspective.

CheGuedara

p wrote: »

Doing a box turn is less likely to cause a car driver hassle. Maybe a little confusion perhaps, but you're not in the way of a driver, and you're not crossing into lanes of traffic.

Why should a driver be hassled? There should'nt be a problem for a motorist to sit behind me as I wait to and go through a turn. If it's unsafe for me to proceed through it would be equally so for them and they have to wait until a safe course through the junction is free so they would be waiting wether or not a cyclist was in line infront of them or not.

p wrote: »

I think we need to draw a distinction between what's easier for you and what's easier, safer and less intimidating for other people. Most people on this forum are not the 'average cyclist' and I think it's important when discussing issues that would affect everyone we don't think of it from our own perspective.

Fair enough. I'm probably one of the many posters here that are more than a 'regular cyclist' (I expect you mean a novice or POB / pedalestrian?) but I still defend the normal way of taking a corner as

1. easier: less steps and time required than the offered option B.

2. Safer: Yes you are in a lane of traffic, in fact you are traffic (a motor is not a requirement to use lanes of a road), and because you are, you are more visible, and you are not fumbling along the side of the road hoping that motorist will check their mirrors before turning left (or right in your case in copenhagen) across ones path.

3. Less intimidating: When I moved to Dublin I very quickly realised that cycling here is radically different to elsewhere in Ireland. Here if you dont take your place on the road NOBODY will ever give it to you, there is little/no consideration given to properly assessing surrounding traffic esp cyclists (hence close shaves with being doored, cut across and generally reduced to a bloodied bike/man mess).

Taking junctions as I have described previously may be intimidating the first few times in a large urban centre, but once you adapt to city cycling and settle down and focus on what you're doing to complete your journey (incl getting through roads junctions safely) and forget about worrying about the driver behind you's journey any perceived intimidation goes away.

IMO the 'average cyclist' shouldn't need to used option B and doesn't need to be brave to cycle in traffic, to take a lane etc just aware, assertive and focused

niceonetom

p wrote: »

Doing a box turn is less likely to cause a car driver hassle. Maybe a little confusion perhaps, but you're not in the way of a driver, and you're not crossing into lanes of traffic.

Confusion is hassle! A driver who doesn't understand what you're at will automatically cover the brake until he/she is fairly sure you're not going to throw yourself under their alloys. Being predictable (and moving left to go right is not what any driver in Ireland would expect) is sooooo important to being safe, second only to being visible IMO.

Seeing being a 'hassle' to drivers as an issue is totally wrong-headed too. Wouldn't we be less hassle to them if we just stayed at home? Or never turned right at all, just kept making lefts till we got on the right road?

Sadly, the average Irish cyclist does not stop at red lights, so expecting them to stop at green ones (and go over to wait behind the crossing red) when they want to turn right is so naive as to be summarily dismissed. It'll simply never happen.

tomasrojo

p wrote: »

Doing a box turn is less likely to cause a car driver hassle. Maybe a little confusion perhaps, but you're not in the way of a driver, and you're not crossing into lanes of traffic.

I think we need to draw a distinction between what's easier for you and what's easier, safer and less intimidating for other people. Most people on this forum are not the 'average cyclist' and I think it's important when discussing issues that would affect everyone we don't think of it from our own perspective.

It's a free country; if people feel like going through the junction like this, then they can. It doesn't conform with traffic law, but I can't see anyone being taken to task for it.

But you really don't have to be an exceptionally fit or courageous individual to do a right turn on a bike, to be honest. You don't work for Dublin City Council, do you?

p

tomasrojo wrote: »

It's a free country; if people feel like going through the junction like this, then they can. It doesn't conform with traffic law, but I can't see anyone being taken to task for it.

But you really don't have to be an exceptionally fit or courageous individual to do a right turn on a bike, to be honest. You don't work for Dublin City Council, do you?

Au contraire, I'm just a normal person who's been living in Copenhagen for a year and is looking to see what lessons we can learn from them

Having taught my girlfriend to cycle here in Copenhagen, i've gotten a bit of insight into how people perceive cycling and what an inexperienced cyclist is concerned about.

Also, as some who job entails things like user research, usability and the study of people's behaviour it's very interesting to question how different rules would affect people's attitude on the roads, cyclists, pedestrians and drivers.

tomasrojo

Well, I don't see any harm in people doing turns like that, if doing the turn the quick, efficient (and to be honest perfectly safe) way really gives them the heebie-jeebies.

But I'd be very unhappy if an attempt was made to portray this as the way a turn SHOULD be done on a bike.

Some really quite easy manoeuvres are now being protrayed as only possible bythe most skilled of cyclists -- such as Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown Council stating that only the most confident cyclists are capable of changing lane on approaching a junction. This is an unhealthy development. Even in a country with a well-developed cycling infrastructure, such as Denmark, it would be a terrible pity if every cyclist were to end up completely afraid of cycling on normal roads. Or incapable of travelling at an average speed in excess of 10km/h.

As Roy Batty said:

Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.

tomasrojo

Interestingly, speaking of copenhagenize.com and living in fear, here they are combined:

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/10/fear-of-cycling-04-new-cycling-spaces.html

However, an unintended consequence of [cycle facilities'] popularity may be that the dominant public perception of cycling is becoming of an activity which best occurs in ‘safe’ and pleasant places [...] ‘Normal’ roads are no place to cycle; they are to be feared.

It's a guest UK writer. That's not the opinion of the proprietor of the site.

tomasrojo

I know this is an old thread. Just was interested to see the manoeuvre the OP was talking about officially endorsed in Australia, where it seems to be called a "hook turn".



http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/Home/General_information/Cycling/Bike_user_guide/Road_rules_for_cyclists/

poochiem

Sorry for bumping an old thread but that's useful, I do this at one junction where I had a crash before so am still a bit nervous on it. Actually this manner of turning is the law in Melbourne (they have trams) and when applied to all traffic it makes sense.

tomasrojo

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I thought this was applicable and interesting.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/bike-blog/2011/apr/07/london-blogger-calls-for-cycling-infrastructure-revolution

The clip in the article shows how the cycle facilities in the Netherlands facilitate a left turn. It's a hook turn with shelters while you're waiting for the lights to change on the second leg of your turn.

I must say, the dangers and difficulties of making left turns (or right turns here) is exaggerated in the clip. At least for adults making left turns. Showing a nincompoop getting it wrong in London doesn't mean it's a very difficult manoeuvre on most roads.

monument

tomasrojo wrote: »

...I must say, the dangers and difficulties
of making left turns (or right turns here) is exaggerated in the
clip.

Not by half... that was the most exaggerated ramble I've watched on YouTube, and that's saying something!

This is how they do it in Berlin on larger roads only (all links to Google Street View):

• Enter the junction as normal
  
• Then take the turning lane, which is on the inside of the cycle lane going straight ahead (their right, our left)
  
• Stop at the stop line in the turning lane
  
• This positions you before the ped crossing on the intersecting street and directly in the view of any driver stopped in the inside lane of the intersecting street
  
• When stopped in the turning lane you'll be facing your own traffic light, this will go green seconds before cyclists in the intersecting street get green and only after they get green do motorists get green

Or here it is in the one image:

1. Move into the inside turning lane (their right, our left)
2. Stop at the stop line in the turning lane
3. Wait for your traffic light to turn green
4. Turn and go straight across the junction in the cycle lane
5. The cyclists on the intersecting street get a green
6. The motorists on the same street get a green