i think i messed up training a setter...help!

flanum

shes nearly five month... i have her responding to her name, i think i have her on "heal" to the the choke chain.... but i think i spent too much time with her concentrating on the dummy... throwing into tall grass ... !!

A co-owner brought her out this eveing to fields where we have pheasents released... apparently she picked up the scent, done a classic set... but then chased the raised bird.... thats my fault with the dummy! !! any suggestions on how to keep her at that level of interest but without the chase?? im new to gundog training!!! its human training i need to know!!

meathstevie

As long as the dog doesn't move first I don't think you have a problem. It's very hard for a dog not to give chase once the subject of the set decides to leg or wing it.

greenpeter

How can you have messed up if the pup is only five months? she's still only a baby at months and to start to set already is a very good sign. There is a fine line with dummy work with any dog, i messed my lad up over doing it but got him rite in the end with a lot of fun involved, try get the other co owner with you when dummy training, you put her to heal and get him to go out in front of you and trow the dummy and dont let her break from heal until sent and if she breaks get him to pick the dummy up and you get after her and take her back to you soon enough she will realize that there is no chase allowed. I got relay annoyed when training my dog because everything was going wrong i even lost many a nights sleep over it but soon i began to realize the best result came trough when i tuck a good few steps back and tuck my time and started to enjoy it. Best of luck and dont panic enjoy it.

stevoman

lol you remind me of exactly what i was like when i first got my setter!!!!!!

THINK THINK THINK - your a five month old pup, you have just been brought into a field when this scent smashes into your nose and you freeze. you think about what it is, you shake with excitment and then you say to yourself feck this im cant hold it anymore i have to investigate!!! thats all that happened. the fact that you dog has made a set at 5 months is perect.

i have already said to you before you have to give your dog time and not expect too much from her. you cant give a football to a child and expect him to be a pro straight away and the same goes for a dog hunting. it takes time for them to learn their trade.

let the dog have her time and experience and make all the mistakes she likes. you cant blame the dog for acting on insticnt, isnt it better she did that than walk striaght by them.

you have to keep this in your head as hard as it is to swallow - dont expect a really good dog until she is around 3.

as i said before mine is 2 and a half now. when im i going to have a really really good setter? november next year!!!!!!!!!

EPointer=Birdss

flanum wrote: »

shes nearly five month... i have her responding to her name, i think i have her on "heal" to the the choke chain.... but i think i spent too much time with her concentrating on the dummy... throwing into tall grass ... !!

A co-owner brought her out this eveing to fields where we have pheasents released... apparently she picked up the scent, done a classic set... but then chased the raised bird.... thats my fault with the dummy! !! any suggestions on how to keep her at that level of interest but without the chase?? im new to gundog training!!! its human training i need to know!!

Here's my 2 cents others may disagree;
At 5 months dogs are very forgiving. If she didn’t bust & chase a few birds you’d have one of 2 a things. A super dog or a dud!
I personally am not a lover of too much retrieve work with pointing dogs until they are working birds. (Just my opinion) I have done a lot of retrieve work over the summer but I had a lot of bird work done during the season. I think a few throws a session is plenty to keep her ticking over but the majority of the work should be obedience & bird work. However I wouldn’t be doing a huge amount of bird work until your dog listens to you.
Some say they shouldn’t be in the field until 12 months, I say when you feel the dog is listening & will come on command.
For a young dog I would be planting birds. 5 months is still pretty young.You have the luxury of a co-owner so use him/her. You also have release runs so catch up a few birds.
If budget allows get some rigid mesh, cable ties, heavy rat trap spring, few pins with loop heads & few meters of light rope & what ever else you think would be useful. Make yourself a cheap launcher so that you can plant a bird in a spring loaded compartment & get your buddy to pull a locking pin to release the bird whenever you want.
Best thing you could buy is a cheap length of rope tied to her collar. 30 -40 feet is plenty distance for her to be working from you for now. If you’ve planted a bird you can walk her up to it on the lead. If she sets great leave her a few minutes if she holds. Get your buddy to pull the pin, up goes the bird. She will want to chase but you have her on the rope. So where’s she going to go? 2-3 birds a session will bring the dog on no end. If she gets too close once you see her pick up the scent, bring her away for a few minutes & move the bird & bring her up to it again. 2 people make this a lot easier. Seems like a lot of work but at end of the day you are just instilling the basics. After this is it just time & experience.
I would forget about shooting birds for this year unless she comes on very quickly. If she sets & hold & you can flush the bird great. Worse thing to do though is shoot a bird she’s busted. I remember last season mine fella busted 7 cocks in a row in about 2 hours! Some noble older birds too! Talk about frustrating! I had the gun but left it unloaded. It doesn’t take long to add 2 cartridges if they point.
I used a cheap 2euro shop cap gun to leave off a bang when the birds were released. Cheaper than a starter pistol & not as loud to start with, good place to start before moving on to the shotgun.
Hope this helps, it’s how I went about it but learned a lot on the way as well. I must have spent hours reading online for tips etc. Best piece of advice,
Patience patience patience!
EP

flanum

Thanks for helpful suggestions lads.. ill take all on board.. and no worries, ill relax a bit more and have a bit of fun with her.. and keep reminding meself that she still is a puppy(baby)! hey even if she doesnt ever make it, shell still be a great dog!

Wolfhillbilly

Can't add that much to what has already been said.
If mine points at five months I'll be delighted and to be honest I'd be more concerned if he didn't chase. But don't rush, let your dog enjoy being a pup. There's no prizes for having the youngest ever dog to have a pheasant shot over it.

irish setter

hey just like to add this and hope it will help. there is two aspects to dog training and there what a setter is thought and what a setter learns. you can teach your manners and control but you can only give him the oppertunity to learn. first you have done your dog no harm by what you say. at 5 months i'd keep him away from all game and stop rushing. he won't even be near his best till he's about 4 and some of the best dogs dont even show interest till 18 months. for now you have to decide what level of obedience you would like to have on him. for a dog used for hunting the basic is the recall. once the recall is in place the dog is under control. be carefull not to over do this because you'll want him to get away from you and hunt. when he is ready for birds the best route to take is training on wild birds so if you have access to them don't bother going down the line of bird launchers and planted birds as there only usefull when you have no other option and if over used the dog will not learn how to keep enough distance from a wild bird before flushing it. there is no time set in stone as when a setter should be introduced to game and often time of year will dictate when you can but it's important not to rush. the dog i'm training at the moment has not seen game yet and he is a year old now but this weekend i'll be heading to more gamey ground and should have him ready for spring trials. this is the stage where your dog starts to learn. you give him the oppertunity to point and if he is bred to do it 9 out of 10 he will. dont worry if its just a flash point at first as he grows in confidence he will start to steady up. try to get up beside him and gently stroke and talk to him and make him wait before making him flush and after that its all practice. try not to shoot over him till he is doing right. hope this helps

stevoman

irish setter wrote: »

hey just like to add this and hope it will help. there is two aspects to dog training and there what a setter is thought and what a setter learns. you can teach your manners and control but you can only give him the oppertunity to learn. first you have done your dog no harm by what you say. at 5 months i'd keep him away from all game and stop rushing. he won't even be near his best till he's about 4 and some of the best dogs dont even show interest till 18 months. for now you have to decide what level of obedience you would like to have on him. for a dog used for hunting the basic is the recall. once the recall is in place the dog is under control. be carefull not to over do this because you'll want him to get away from you and hunt. when he is ready for birds the best route to take is training on wild birds so if you have access to them don't bother going down the line of bird launchers and planted birds as there only usefull when you have no other option and if over used the dog will not learn how to keep enough distance from a wild bird before flushing it. there is no time set in stone as when a setter should be introduced to game and often time of year will dictate when you can but it's important not to rush. the dog i'm training at the moment has not seen game yet and he is a year old now but this weekend i'll be heading to more gamey ground and should have him ready for spring trials. this is the stage where your dog starts to learn. you give him the oppertunity to point and if he is bred to do it 9 out of 10 he will. dont worry if its just a flash point at first as he grows in confidence he will start to steady up. try to get up beside him and gently stroke and talk to him and make him wait before making him flush and after that its all practice. try not to shoot over him till he is doing right. hope this helps

good advice.

you really need patience with settes ou really do. mine has got very steady this year and its has thken over 2 years. like what you said when she started setting pheasents i stroked and talked to her and it gave her confidence.

what i am worried abvout now is the gun. she has birds shot over her last year but i kow that when she hears the gun she gets very excited and starts running around in circles. my plan now in the next two weeks is i am going to go out with my brother and get him to fire a few shots while we are away from her. i'l gently talk to her and tell her to stay every time the shot is fired. i hope this works and will start getting her to drop to shot.

secondly setter men.... how do you find your dog on snipe. she was 1 and half years old last year and it was 90% of the work she got last season. she kept running in on snipe lying up and starteded putting them up like it was a game. i havnt introduced her to snipe again this year yet but i hope she is more calm. again its all experience and confidence. it will come in time.

i keep saying she's 2 and a half now. she'l be a miller in november 2010!

mallards

stevoman wrote: »

secondly setter men.... how do you find your dog on snipe. she was 1 and half years old last year and it was 90% of the work she got last season. she kept running in on snipe lying up and starteded putting them up like it was a game. i havnt introduced her to snipe again this year yet but i hope she is more calm.

You could try the long lead on her again. When she gets the first puff of a snipe and you notice it, give a quick but gentle tug on the lead. She should hold. Keep her there, stroking and talking to her. With luck the snipe will stay put. With enough practice she should set as soon as she smells one which should be far enough away from it to stop it flushing. Careful though to do it just with snipe as she may become 'sticky' on other game.

All the best,

Mallards

irish setter

stevoman wrote: »

good advice.

you really need patience with settes ou really do. mine has got very steady this year and its has thken over 2 years. like what you said when she started setting pheasents i stroked and talked to her and it gave her confidence.

what i am worried abvout now is the gun. she has birds shot over her last year but i kow that when she hears the gun she gets very excited and starts running around in circles. my plan now in the next two weeks is i am going to go out with my brother and get him to fire a few shots while we are away from her. i'l gently talk to her and tell her to stay every time the shot is fired. i hope this works and will start getting her to drop to shot.

secondly setter men.... how do you find your dog on snipe. she was 1 and half years old last year and it was 90% of the work she got last season. she kept running in on snipe lying up and starteded putting them up like it was a game. i havnt introduced her to snipe again this year yet but i hope she is more calm. again its all experience and confidence. it will come in time.

i keep saying she's 2 and a half now. she'l be a miller in november 2010!

some dogs seem to prefer one game over another for some reason. i had a dog once who prefered snipe and wouldn't set pheasant. if your dog is steady on other game and has been shot over try knocking a snipe over him. i know it goes against every thing your supposed to do but it does work. the second thing is you said you wanted to teach him to drop to shot. the drop should be instilled at 3 months of age to do it right by voice signals. then you substitute the signal like voice to whistle or whistle to shot ect. so your best to leave that one. anyway why would you want your dog to drop in the first place unless your planing to trial with him. you want him to hunt and enjoy the time with him without unnessary complication.thats just my opinion tho

EPointer=Birdss

irish setter wrote: »

anyway why would you want your dog to drop in the first place unless your planing to trial with him. you want him to hunt and enjoy the time with him without unnessary complication.thats just my opinion tho

I agree...
Do you train your dogs to be steady to flush?

stevoman

irish setter wrote: »

some dogs seem to prefer one game over another for some reason. i had a dog once who prefered snipe and wouldn't set pheasant. if your dog is steady on other game and has been shot over try knocking a snipe over him. i know it goes against every thing your supposed to do but it does work. the second thing is you said you wanted to teach him to drop to shot. the drop should be instilled at 3 months of age to do it right by voice signals. then you substitute the signal like voice to whistle or whistle to shot ect. so your best to leave that one. anyway why would you want your dog to drop in the first place unless your planing to trial with him. you want him to hunt and enjoy the time with him without unnessary complication.thats just my opinion tho

the way i have my dog in the field at the moment is to drop to one whislte and return to me at 2 whistles. i never bothered with getting her quatering in fancy casts as she is a rough shooting dog and she seems to just geton a scent and follow it. when she does set and a bird gets up she runs maybe 10 yards and gives up.

i will keep in mind tjhe advice so about not getting her to drop to hunt and just enjoy it.

she has had snipe shot over her least season , unfortunatly these were snipe that got up wild as last year she wasnt that steady on them. she also has has 2 pheasents shot over her last year one she hunted and put up in sedge and the second that broke through a dtich to me. she also had teal and duck shot over her.

she seems to be very steady this year. will set pheasents, set where a hare had just lay for a few seconds (shes not stciky) and i have also seen her trail a fox so she getig keen on game scent. i guess last year she was still only a pup and having her first real experience. she's more mature year. its amazing watching setters come on so it is. it does take a while for them to mature in hunting dogs but i think shes coming on great.

irish setter

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

I agree...
Do you train your dogs to be steady to flush?

only when i intend to trial the dog will i even bother getting then steady to wing and shot and the best way of doing that is by dropping them. they say to keep your dog steady to wing so it never gets into the line of fire but in reality this never happens or at least never to me. and if it does happen and a shot is fired then the person doing the shooting prob shouldn't have a gun. i like to do as less as possible with the dog and letting him get on with hunting for a shooting dog

stevoman

irish setter wrote: »

i like to do as less as possible with the dog and letting him get on with hunting for a shooting dog

this is exactly where i went wrong last year and i will never make the same mistke twice. this year its all about the dog and letting her do her own thing and do her own hunting and it makes some difference.

EPointer=Birdss

stevoman wrote: »

this is exactly where i went wrong last year and i will never make the same mistke twice. this year its all about the dog and letting her do her own thing and do her own hunting and it makes some difference.

Let her out to hunt & help her where required. It should also fall into place with time...
Don't let her out through the ditches though...:eek:

paul.m

im starting to have problems with my 1 yr old springer, training her at the start was very easy but since we have being going out on field things have started to slow down, shewill follow birds on sound and sight but not by nose, she just passes them out and alsow she wont retrieve, this is my first dog i have started training, if i shoot anything she will follow but picks it up and runs around with it, if i call her she drops it and comes back, anyone got any ideas and tips that could help me, thanks

EPointer=Birdss

paul.m wrote: »

im starting to have problems with my 1 yr old springer, training her at the start was very easy but since we have being going out on field things have started to slow down, shewill follow birds on sound and sight but not by nose, she just passes them out and alsow she wont retrieve, this is my first dog i have started training, if i shoot anything she will follow but picks it up and runs around with it, if i call her she drops it and comes back, anyone got any ideas and tips that could help me, thanks

When you say training was going well what exactly were you doing?
I would expect a lot of field work to be done by 1 yr??

I would be worried if she's not using her nose by now. She may not have one & may not make the cut I'm afraid!

What I would say is get her on rabbits now fast! They leave great trails in & out of ditches & if that doesn't get her using her nose your on a loser I'm afraid. I am training a 5 month old springer at the moment & I do an hour of bird or rabbit work with him once a week to get the prey drive & get him hunting. I do obediance, every day...

On the retieve work, have you trained a command for retrieve?
If she's dropping it, then she's not trained to retreive. She takes your command as a recall not a retrieve.
If so when she drops it points back to the bird, give the command & force her to get it. You will have to repeat this over & over til it sinks in. If she knows the command she'll understand what you mean!
Also what helps is if you shoot a bird, when you get home put long lead on her & throw the bird a few times. Hold her & when you give the command release her for the retrieve. When she picks it give a here command & use the lead to stop her running around. You have to be all about her on the here though as I sense when she starts running around your getting annoyed calling her in the wrong tone, she gets afraid drops the bird & comes back waiting for a clip??

paul.m

training as obediance, il go out today so and get her on rabbits and il see how that goes and the retriving part and start that tomorrow, thanks for the tips, hopefully they will help