Veto on taxation etc.

axer

Just a question regarding our vetos. If we vote yes with which comes the veto on tax etc does that mean that it is our government that gets to decide whether we use this veto or not? From what I understand it does not go back to the people of Ireland to vote on again for any of our vetos. Is this correct? Thus could the Irish government be somehow pressurised in the future into voting yes whereas if it had to go to the people it would not be such an easy job?

Disclaimer: I am 80% likely to vote yes to ratifying the treaty.

Scofflaw

axer wrote: »

Just a question regarding our vetos. If we vote yes with which comes the veto on tax etc does that mean that it is our government that gets to decide whether we use this veto or not? From what I understand it does not go back to the people of Ireland to vote on again for any of our vetos. Is this correct? Thus could the Irish government be somehow pressurised in the future into voting yes whereas if it had to go to the people it would not be such an easy job?

Disclaimer: I am 80% likely to vote yes to ratifying the treaty.

The use of vetoes is entirely up to the government. In the case of tax, though, it's worth pointing out that direct taxes (income tax, corporation tax) are not within the competence of the EU anyway.

Just to be sure to be sure, there's now the guarantee on top of that:

GUARANTEE ON TAXATION - European Council
Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon makes any change of any kind, for any Member State, to the extent or operation of the competence of the European Union in relation to taxation.

cordially,
Scofflaw

axer

Scofflaw wrote: »

The use of vetoes is entirely up to the government. In the case of tax, though, it's worth pointing out that direct taxes (income tax, corporation tax) are not within the competence of the EU anyway.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Which taxes would be?

EDIT: not a great example but Michael O Leary says we have a veto on direct taxation (prime time).

K-9

axer wrote: »

Which taxes would be?

EDIT: not a great example but Michael O Leary says we have a veto on direct taxation (prime time).

VAT and other indirect taxes. Been that way since we joined the EEC I think. Unfortunately no harmonisation of VRT yet!

Scofflaw

axer wrote: »

Which taxes would be?

EDIT: not a great example but Michael O Leary says we have a veto on direct taxation (prime time).

Indirect taxes - VAT, sales tax, anything that doesn't involve directly taxing an individual or company. On the other hand, the only one I know the EU to have any direct role in is VAT, because the EU is part-funded out of a levy on VAT, and therefore sets minimum and maximum VAT rates - minimum 15%, maximum 25%. As far as I know, they are also planning on doing something about VRT, which is also an indirect tax.

And McDowell is correct - harmonisation of indirect taxes (a) is already in Nice, and (b) is subject to a veto.

This is the Lisbon article:

Article 113 (ex Article 93 TEC)

The Council shall, acting unanimously in accordance with a special legislative procedure and after consulting the European Parliament and the Economic and Social Committee, adopt provisions for the harmonisation of legislation concerning turnover taxes, excise duties and other forms of indirect taxation to the extent that such harmonisation is necessary to ensure the establishment and the functioning of the internal market and to avoid distortion of competition.

This is the Nice article:

Article 93 Nice TEC

The Council shall, acting unanimously on a proposal from the Commission and after consulting the European Parliament and the Economic and Social Committee, adopt provisions for the harmonisation of legislation concerning turnover taxes, excise duties and other forms of indirect taxation to the extent that such harmonisation is necessary to ensure the establishment and the functioning of the internal market within the time limit laid down in Article 14.

cordially,
Scofflaw

W.ill

1.: The EU can expand it's competences by decision of the European Court. 2.: In those issues, where the veto continues to exist, the other European countries can decide to void a veto of a member country - therefore, if the Irish government calls for its veto, the other member states can choose to ignore/void Irelands veto.

Once the Treaty comes into power, the Irish constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on. It becomes absolutely irrelevant, the EU decides which rights Ireland has and which not (the EU can also expand it's competences freely, as national constitutions will be subject to EU law; now it's the opposite way).
The Treaty of Libson is basically equal to the European Constitution, and the people of France, Holland and Ireland turned it down for good reasons. It's the first step to a European dictatorship, and the EU's attitude towards democratic decisions is alarmingly ignorant (they chose to aviod any ballots on the Treaty, the Irish contitution was the only one that made the "problem" of demanding a democratic decision - all other member states found ways of avoiding this "problem").

Vote no please, the people of Europe will be eternally grateful to the Irish.

Scofflaw

W.ill wrote: »

1.: The EU can expand it's competences by decision of the European Court. 2.: In those issues, where the veto continues to exist, the other European countries can decide to void a veto of a member country - therefore, if the Irish government calls for its veto, the other member states can choose to ignore/void Irelands veto.

Once the Treaty comes into power, the Irish constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on. It becomes absolutely irrelevant, the EU decides which rights Ireland has and which not (the EU can also expand it's competences freely, as national constitutions will be subject to EU law; now it's the opposite way).
The Treaty of Libson is basically equal to the European Constitution, and the people of France, Holland and Ireland turned it down for good reasons. It's the first step to a European dictatorship, and the EU's attitude towards democratic decisions is alarmingly ignorant (they chose to aviod any ballots on the Treaty, the Irish contitution was the only one that made the "problem" of demanding a democratic decision - all other member states found ways of avoiding this "problem").

Vote no please, the people of Europe will be eternally grateful to the Irish.

Another single-post user with a false message. The EU cannot grant itself competences. That was a finding of the German Constitutional Court:

(d) Finally, the Treaty of Lisbon does not vest the European Union with provisions that provide the European union of integration (Integrationsverband) with the competence to decide on its own competence (Kompetenz-Kompetenz).

regards,
Scofflaw

sceptre

I'm beginning to worry about the Austrian education system now. This worry rot I have is spreading.

When I start my own country, everyone will have the ability and the willingness to read. It'll be just like a Bond movie with a better ending.

W.ill from Vienna, please read the Treaty. Pick the bits that you like or don't like but (and here's the key bit), only the bits that are actually in it as opposed to the stuff that's made up - and come back and have a nice discussion about it. On or before Friday.