Conscription

SlickRic

I'm sorry, this is obviously the lazy way to do this.

but what is the deal with conscription under Lisbon?

will they be able to make our children, grandchildren, sign up for the army?

this is an issue, not for me, but for a friend, and it will sway her vote either way.

thank you in advance.

GerardKeating

SlickRic wrote: »

I'm sorry, this is obviously the lazy way to do this.

but what is the deal with conscription under Lisbon?

will they be able to make our children, grandchildren, sign up for the army?

this is an issue, not for me, but for a friend, and it will sway her vote either way.

thank you in advance.

There is nothing in Lisbon that effects conscription.

prinz

Absolutely not. There is nothing in the Lisbon Treaty about conscripting anyone.

K-9

From the new Guarantees negotiated:

SECTION C: SECURITY AND DEFENCE
The Union's action on the international scene is guided by the principles of democracy, the rule of law, the universality and indivisibility of human rights and fundamental freedoms, respect for human dignity, the principles of equality and solidarity, and respect for the principles of the United Nations Charter and international law.

The Union's common security and defence policy is an integral part of the common foreign and security policy and provides the Union with an operational capacity to undertake missions outside the Union for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter.

It does not prejudice the security and defence policy of each Member State, including Ireland, or the obligations of any Member State.

The Treaty of Lisbon does not affect or prejudice Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality. It will be for Member States - including Ireland, acting in a spirit of solidarity and without prejudice to its traditional policy of military neutrality - to determine the nature of aid or assistance to be provided to a Member State which is the object of a terrorist attack or the victim of armed aggression on its territory.

Any decision to move to a common defence will require a unanimous decision of the European Council. It would be a matter for the Member States, including Ireland, to decide, in accordance with the provisions of the Treaty of Lisbon and with their respective constitutional requirements, whether or not to adopt a common defence.

Nothing in this Section affects or prejudices the position or policy of any other Member State on security and defence.

It is also a matter for each Member State to decide, in accordance with the provisions of the Treaty of Lisbon and any domestic legal requirements, whether to participate in permanent structured cooperation or the European Defence Agency.

The Treaty of Lisbon does not provide for the creation of a European army or for conscription to any military formation.

It does not affect the right of Ireland or any other Member State to determine the nature and volume of its defence and security expenditure and the nature of its defence capabilities. It will be a matter for Ireland or any other Member State, to decide, in accordance with any domestic legal requirements, whether or not to participate in any military operation.

There is a sticky on them on the main page here.

Jk_Eire

From the European Movements "Just the Facts" campaign.
Sums it all up nicely.

http://europeanmovement.ie/index.php?id=8909

“Lisbon will send our boys to war…”
The Claim

The Lisbon Treaty would further militarise the EU, making a mockery of traditional Irish neutrality and any pretence to an independent Irish foreign policy.

Edward Horgan of the University of Limerick, has claimed that “the hidden agenda in the Lisbon Treaty is that it is part of a continuum of European and international developments that promotes militarism and erodes neutrality as a peace maintenance option. The Lisbon Treaty, or EU constitution in disguise, will effectively end any pretence of Irish neutrality.”[1 Edward Hogan. “Lisbon Treaty will end any pretence of Irish neutrality” Irish Times 4 April 2008.]

The Campaign against the EU Constitution also alleges that the mutual defence and assistance clause in Article 28 could be used to demand support for another EU state invading a country said to harbour terrorists, just as the US demanded and got support in the case of Afghanistan.[2 Campaign Against the EU Constitution – “why you should vote no” – www.caeuc.org]

Lisbon calls for increased military spending by all Member States and requires them to make facilities available for EU military activity.

“This Treaty obligates us to increase our military spending. It is very clear in the Treaty. Nobody says where that money is supposed to come from, but it is supposed to be cut from somewhere else to be able to spend more on the military budget.”[3 From Susan George’s speech on the topic of a rerun of the Lisbon Treaty vote in Ireland (Dublin- Feminist Open Forum – 23.01.09) vimeo.com/3281565]

The Treaty puts the EU under NATO.

“This Treaty specifically puts Europe under NATO and this means that the US will dictate the European Foreign and Security Policy.”[4 From Susan George’s speech on the topic of a rerun of the Lisbon Treaty vote in Ireland (Dublin- Feminist Open Forum – 23.01.09) vimeo.com/3281565]

The Short Answer

The Lisbon Treaty has NO mention of conscription or a European Army. The Treaty fully respects the neutrality of Ireland and the five other neutral EU countries.

The Long Answer

The Lisbon Treaty does not introduce conscription or create a European Army of any kind. Ireland will never be forced into sending troops or participating in any way in a mission that has not been approved by the Irish State.

Ireland is universally respected for our dedication to peacekeeping. We as a country have made a name for ourselves due to this dedication and the excellence of our peacekeeping forces. Our work with the EU has never compromised this role we play, on the contrary it has strengthened it. (Google the name ‘Pat Nash’ and you’ll see what we mean).

This Treaty does not force EU countries under NATO, nor does it force countries to raise their military spending. The EU has simply no interest in compromising the neutrality of any of its six neutral members – in fact, the EU enshrines our neutrality by recognising it, something which our Constitution does not do.

There are a multitude of checks and balances in place that ensure that Ireland’s neutrality is fully respected. These are clearly and fully outlined in the Lisbon Treaty and have been further reinforced by the legal guarantees of Irish neutrality at the EU Council meeting in June 2009

MrMatisse

There is nothing in it about conscription ( and i hate the thing)

However Some people feel that the closer military co operation it wants and the mutual defence pact in it could hypothetically result in conscription in participating countries ( we are exempt from this) if a member state was attacked and needed soldiers very badly.

Not an Irish concern

oscarBravo

Really-Stressed wrote: »

However Some people feel that the closer military co operation it wants and the mutual defence pact in it could hypothetically result in conscription in participating countries ( we are exempt from this) if a member state was attacked and needed soldiers very badly.

...and some people feel the Earth is flat.

MrMatisse

And some poeple are arrogant and fail to address or engage with peoples concerns which got you boys a Nice NO! the last time.

marco_polo

Really-Stressed wrote: »

There is nothing in it about conscription ( and i hate the thing)

However Some people feel that the closer military co operation it wants and the mutual defence pact in it could hypothetically result in conscription in participating countries ( we are exempt from this) if a member state was attacked and needed soldiers very badly.

Not an Irish concern

Really-Stressed wrote: »

And some poeple are arrogant and fail to address or engage with peoples concerns which got you boys a Nice NO! the last time.

But this is pure BS because there is no mention of Conscription in the Solidarity clause, no army to conscript people into. And indeed no obligation to engage in any invocation of the Solidarity clause that may have military implications.

SlickRic

thank you all so much.

greatly appreciated.

oscarBravo

Really-Stressed wrote: »

And some poeple are arrogant and fail to address or engage with peoples concerns which got you boys a Nice NO! the last time.

I'm not sure what needs to be done to address people's concerns beyond telling them that they're totally unfounded.

What do you feel needs to be done to address people's totally unfounded concerns about conscription?

efb

SlickRic wrote: »

I'm sorry, this is obviously the lazy way to do this.

but what is the deal with conscription under Lisbon?

will they be able to make our children, grandchildren, sign up for the army?

this is an issue, not for me, but for a friend, and it will sway her vote either way.

thank you in advance.

Its not the grankids I worry for, I'd would be the granny- euthanasia, she's a gonner! Cóir told me!

MrMatisse

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not sure what needs to be done to address people's concerns beyond telling them that they're totally unfounded.

What do you feel needs to be done to address people's totally unfounded concerns about conscription?

If people have a concern, and you dont discuss it with them and explain it to them, they get worried and vote ( shock horror) No.

This is why your lot lost the last time.

Pure arrogance.

oscarBravo

Really-Stressed wrote: »

If people have a concern, and you dont discuss it with them and explain it to them, they get worried and vote ( shock horror) No.

That's not an answer to my question. It's a bit rich complaining about not having concerns addressed, when you won't even answer a simple question.

prinz

Really-Stressed wrote: »

If people have a concern, and you dont discuss it with them and explain it to them, they get worried and vote ( shock horror) No.
This is why your lot lost the last time.
Pure arrogance.

Every thread on Lisbon on this forum is a discussion on the concerns people have. Yet still some posters go from thread to thread repeating the same nonsense that was discussed previously (shock horror). Anyone with a legitimate concern can come here, ask a question, and have it discussed. Simple really. The OP seems happy enough with the clarification.

Oafley Jones

Really-Stressed wrote: »

If people have a concern, and you dont discuss it with them and explain it to them, they get worried and vote ( shock horror) No.

This is why your lot lost the last time.

Pure arrogance.

The OPs question was answered and explained by several posters. What more do you want?

marco_polo

Really-Stressed wrote: »

If people have a concern, and you dont discuss it with them and explain it to them, they get worried and vote ( shock horror) No.

This is why your lot lost the last time.

Pure arrogance.

You wander into a thread of someone making a genuine inquiry about the treaty, and proceed to suggest that Lisbon could 'hypothetically result in conscription'. How were you adding to the debate except via a weak attempt to muddly the waters with a typical fantasy tale.

Such underhandness is only worthy of contempt.

Scofflaw

Really-Stressed wrote: »

There is nothing in it about conscription ( and i hate the thing)

However Some people feel that the closer military co operation it wants and the mutual defence pact in it could hypothetically result in conscription in participating countries ( we are exempt from this) if a member state was attacked and needed soldiers very badly.

Not an Irish concern

Indeed - that would be an issue for the specific country only.

cordially,
Scofflaw