Steyr Scout Restricted?

Seamus357

Is the Steyr Scout Restricted? From reading the Garda guidelines about minimum barrel length (50cm or 19.6"), it seems that the Steyr Scout is now on the restricted firearms list as it's barrel is 19". Does anyone have any information on this?

Seamus

Sparks

The guidelines are not the law.
The law regarding whether or not a fullbore rifle like the Scout are restricted says:

single-shot or repeating rifled centre-fire firearms of a calibre not
exceeding 7.62 millimetres (.308 inch) and whose overall length
is greater than 90 centimetres

I know the Scout's a bit short, but I don't remember it being less than 90cm long overall (buttplate to crown) especially if you've spacers in there, so it's not restricted (unless you had the .376 chambering, of course).

johngalway

Is there not a law somewhere, stating that a rifles barrel must not be less than 19.something inches in length?

It's not a new one to do with the new system. I remember reading something about it a good while back as I was thinking of getting the Quad barrel cut.

Hibrion

I thought barrels just had to be over 30cm??

DMZ

johngalway wrote: »

Is there not a law somewhere, stating that a rifles barrel must not be less than 19.something inches in length?

It's not a new one to do with the new system. I remember reading something about it a good while back as I was thinking of getting the Quad barrel cut.

With respect to Barrel lengths in rifle, there is no legal minimum! save if it is pistol!, the section of the legislation that is in force deals with the unlawful act of shortening a rifle barrel.

That is to say in plain language if your rifle comes with a 14" barrel then it is quite lawful, if for any reason good looks or plain stupidity you wish to shorten a barrel as long as it is carried out by a registerd firearms dealer then it again is lawful.

The new legislation contained in the CJA 2006 outlaws the actual act of shortening barrels, unfortunately the Gardai are now of the view that a short barrel on a rifle makes it more dangerous!

Grizzly 45

ASFIK that applies only to shotguns,and that there is nothing regarding this on rifles bar the Garda guidelines[which no doubt will be interperted as law or whatever we are having ourselves in the station:(] as well as the EU regulations on barrel lengths of 56 cms.Nor is there anything stopping you from shortening the barrel yourself to 24ins.Anything after that is gunsmith terrority,and personally I think it only applies to being able to carry out repairs to damaged barrels,rather than being able to produceand sell short barrelled shotguns.
ASFIK the scout can also have mags over 10 shots capacity as well.

fat-tony

DMZ wrote: »

With respect to Barrel lengths in rifle, there is no legal minimum! save if it is pistol!, the section of the legislation that is in force deals with the unlawful act of shortening a rifle barrel.

That is to say in plain language if your rifle comes with a 14" barrel then it is quite lawful, if for any reason good looks or plain stupidity you wish to shorten a barrel as long as it is carried out by a registerd firearms dealer then it again is lawful.

The new legislation contained in the CJA 2006 outlaws the actual act of shortening barrels, unfortunately the Gardai are now of the view that a short barrel on a rifle makes it more dangerous!

DMZ - please reference the Firearms Acts before giving info like this;)

It is illegal to possess a rifle with a barrel of less than 50cm (19 inches) without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (that's the tricky bit!).

Section 12a refers:

12A.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), a person who shortens the barrel of—
(a) a shot-gun to a length of less than 61 centimetres, or
(b) a rifle to a length of less than 50 centimetres is guilty of an offence.
(2) It is not an offence under subsection (1) for a registered firearms dealer to
shorten the barrel of a shot-gun or rifle to a length of less than 61 or 50
centimetres respectively if the sole purpose of doing so is to replace a defective
part of the barrel with a barrel of not less than 61 or 50 centimetres, as the case
may be.......

.....

(6) It is an offence for a person (except a registered firearms dealer) to
possess without lawful authority or reasonable excuse—
(a) a shot-gun the barrel of which is less than 61 centimetres in length,
(b) a rifle the barrel of which is less than 50 centimetres in length,
(c) a converted firearm mentioned in subsection (3), or
(d) a firearm which has been modified as described in subsection (4).
(7) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section is liable on
conviction on indictment—
(a) to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or such shorter term
as the court may determine, subject to subsections (9) to (11) of this section
or, where subsection (13) of this section applies, to that subsection, and
(b) at the court’s discretion, to a fine of such amount as the court considers
appropriate.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

ASFIK the scout can also have mags over 10 shots capacity as well.

Doesn't matter, the mag capacity limit doesn't apply to centerfire rifles and the scout doesn't come in rimfire chamberings. You could slap a beta c-mag on a centerfire rifle and its restricted status would be unaffected (and rightly so, because the action type limitation makes the mag type unimportant from the over-paranoid point of view).


12A(6)(b) (the barrel length limit) is more interesting because it seems to knock possession on the head. But:

• 12A(6)(b) came in in 2006 and if you've had the licence renewed in '06, '07 and '08 for it, you've not been illegal because you've had "legal authority" in the form of your licence;
• therefore 12A(6)(b) does not prohibit you from applying for a licence in any way;
• And the OP asked about restricted status, which 12A(6)(b) does not affect in any way.

Sometimes you have to answer the question that was asked...

fat-tony

Sparks wrote: »

Doesn't matter, the mag capacity limit doesn't apply to centerfire rifles and the scout doesn't come in rimfire chamberings. You could slap a beta c-mag on a centerfire rifle and its restricted status would be unaffected (and rightly so, because the action type limitation makes the mag type unimportant from the over-paranoid point of view).


12A(6)(b) (the barrel length limit) is more interesting because it seems to knock possession on the head. But:

• 12A(6)(b) came in in 2006 and if you've had the licence renewed in '06, '07 and '08 for it, you've not been illegal because you've had "legal authority" in the form of your licence;
• therefore 12A(6)(b) does not prohibit you from applying for a licence in any way;
• And the OP asked about restricted status, which 12A(6)(b) does not affect in any way.

Sometimes you have to answer the question that was asked...

My view is, if the Steyr Scout has a 19" barrel, then it's equivalent to a 50cm barrel (these things are never exact when the conversion from Imperial to metric is done). So all is cool!;)

My post was directed at DMZ, who indicated that any barrel length was ok - when legally it's not:rolleyes:

Restricted status is not directly related to barrel length - the CJA 2006 barrel length restriction preceded restricted status legislation (and trumps it if your barrel is less than 19"/50cm).

rrpc

fat-tony wrote: »

My view is, if the Steyr Scout has a 19" barrel, then it's equivalent to a 50cm barrel (these things are never exact when the conversion from Imperial to metric is done). So all is cool!;)

My post was directed at DMZ, who indicated that any barrel length was ok - when legally it's not:rolleyes:

Restricted status is not directly related to barrel length - the CJA 2006 barrel length restriction preceded restricted status legislation (and trumps it if your barrel is less than 19"/50cm).

I wouldn't agree tony, the act says 50cm and not 19", so 19" being less than 50cm, it is an offence to possess one.

Don't see any way around it unless it's how you measure the barrel.

Grizzly 45

Being pendantic 50 cms is 19ins and 12 sixteenths of an inch.
So if you want to be really safe,get it threaded and put a muzzle break/flash suppressor on it to bring it up to 20 ins.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

it is an offence to possess one.

...without lawful authority or reasonable excuse

Your licence is lawful authority by definition.
There's nothing in 12A that prevents you from applying - and if the super grants the licence, you're sorted.

And besides, if there's a problem with the barrel length and you really want a scout, just change out the barrel for a longer one. I don't think Grizzly's thought on tapping and adding a moderator would be accepted as that's not the barrel, but if you get a 20" barrel for the scout, all the problems go away (I know it's more expensive and the scout's barrels don't change easy, but it's a solution nonetheless). And since spare barrels don't require new licences, shipping it in will be less trouble than before, in theory :pac:

Ironically, the Steyr Tactical Elite doesn't fall afoul of any of this stuff, having three or so extra inches of barrel. So the non-tactical version is deemed safer by law, but less safe by the guidelines

Grizzly 45

Sorry,should have added to that permantly mount said extension,by pinning or soldering.Under UK law it is acceptable so long as it cant be removed.Rememb er the SPAS 12 shotgun had this problem,as did the Mossberg slugster 12 ga.20 ins,and it was sorted by a 4in Cutts compensator.
Steyrs are not the most easily changed barrels,it is a return to factory job.Inolving sweating out of the reciver and a lot of factory processes.Sooo,it might be better off to order it straight from Austria with the 20 in barrel??If they get enough orders,they would proably do it as a bulk order??

Hibrion

What about a 10 22? Standard barrel is 18 and a half inches??

ivanthehunter

fat-tony wrote: »

DMZ - please reference the Firearms Acts before giving info like this;)

It is illegal to possess a rifle with a barrel of less than 50cm (19 inches) without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (that's the tricky bit!).

Sure if you have it licenced then you have lawful authority and that it.

END OFF ISSUE

fat-tony

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Sure if you have it licenced then you have lawful authority and that it.

END OFF ISSUE

That's it then - no more to say;)

rrpc

I've never been told to end off before, I wonder what it means?

Sparks

Depends on which end the speaker meant I suppose...

Sikamick

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Sure if you have it licenced then you have lawful authority and that it.

END OFF ISSUE

Not so ivanthehunter, we have members that have held firearms licenses for years and paper work has been returned requesting good reason for having, explain what it's been used for and why This particular firearm is the only one that can be used.

Also Garda called to view the firearms in question, Security and contacted referee's within days of paperwork been supplied.

Has any of the above happened to other users here on boards.

Sikamick

Sparks

It's happened to a few people sikamick, but that's the process for granting lawful authority - if after all that, you get a licence, 12A doesn't apply.
In fact, I'm not sure I see the point of that part of 12A at all anyway - I'm not allowed possess any firearm, regardless of barrel length, without lawful authority or good excuse!

ivanthehunter

12a might have been a hagover from the times when some folk didn't need a licence to have a firearm.

Grizzly 45

Which was when here???The 17th century??

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

It's happened to a few people sikamick, but that's the process for granting lawful authority - if after all that, you get a licence, 12A doesn't apply.
In fact, I'm not sure I see the point of that part of 12A at all anyway - I'm not allowed possess any firearm, regardless of barrel length, without lawful authority or good excuse!

I can understand the 'shortening' part of 12A, as it's directed at people making 'sawn-off' rifles for nefarious purposes, but the possession part seems to be superfluous as realistically you're in possession of a firearm full stop.

Unless it's a greater degree of naughtiness and therefore a longer stretch in the slammer for having a shortened rifle.

fat-tony

That whole section 12A seems to be poorly drafted. The intent, presumably, is to make shortening of a shotgun barrel below 60.9cm and a rifle barrel below 50cm an offence. That's fair enough, but then there's a "getout" clause where it states "reasonable excuse or lawful authority" - which all we expert lawyers are interpreting as possession of a firearms certificate for said firearm.;) There is a distinction made in the old (and new) application process between a short firearm and a rifle, but not for these "in-between" firearms.
Now, as there is no section in the old (or new) firearms certificate application form, where it asks you to state the barrel length of the firearm, how is the granting authority (ie the Superintendent) going to know unless he/she does extensive homework? My point is, if the licensing authority doesn't have a record of the barrel length when first licensed, how are they going to know if the barrel has been shortened subsequently - if done expertly enough? It's just another example of a grey area in the legislation.
The restricted SI placed shotguns with a barrel length of less than 60.9cm into the restricted category(which you need to self-declare), but did not do anything similar for rifles less than 50cm. Answers on a postcard...