Coir campagainer suggests praying for the economy

studiorat

I wasn't to sure whether to but this in the humor thread or the hazards of belief. Ironically enough the same man is writing articles for Coir on the Lisbon thing, maybe it should be in that thread?


http://www.irishcatholic.ie/d5/content/pray-end-financial-crisis-economist

"A leading economist has called on people to pray for an end to the financial crisis. Professor Ray Kinsella told The Irish Catholic that the current crisis is ''first and foremost a moral crisis..... "

http://www.coircampaign.org/index.php/news-articles/opinion-pieces/144-the-economic-case-in-favour-of-a-no-vote-in-the-lisbon-treaty

"Source: Professor Ray Kinsella, Economist, UCD

Many individuals, who are well disposed towards the EU and its achievements, will be voting ‘No’ in the impending Referendum. They, and I include myself, will vote ‘No’, not out of any anti-European bias, but on an evidence-based appraisal of the Lisbon Treaty. It is a bad Treaty for Ireland for a number of concrete reasons....."

GLaDOS

I feel sorry for people with genuine arguments against Lisbon, 'cause nutjobs like these just make their side look silly

Économiste Monétaire

Ray Kinsella is not an economist, and certainly not a 'leading economist'.

ironingbored

Funny how the call goes out the just as our exports have begun to pick up. That way hey presto prayer has done the job.

Zillah

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

Ray Kinsella is not an economist, and certainly not a 'leading economist'.

Welcome to the world of religious activism, where the lowest common denominator is considered the best denominator. You may recall similar people from such scintillating sources such as The Creationist Movement, Anti-Abortion Campaigners, Loudmouth Homophobic Bigots and many many more.

Zillah

That said: http://www.smurfitschool.ie/academicsresearch/ouracademics/bankingfinance/professorraykinsella/

"He was previously an economist at the Central Bank of Ireland and Economic Advisor to the Minister for Trade."

Jesus Wept

Is there anything to be said for saying another Mass?

philologos

I have yet to see a hazard or an issue in this at all. Infact I'd agree with his point, perhaps people should be more prayerful about things that impact their lives on a daily basis.

MatthewVII

Jakkass wrote: »

I have yet to see a hazard or an issue in this at all. Infact I'd agree with his point, perhaps people should be more prayerful about things that impact their lives on a daily basis.

Action > prayer.

philologos

MatthewVII wrote: »

Action > prayer.

I find that prayer often assists action.

However, if you mean that faith without any action is worthless. I personally would agree with you, and the Scriptures do too.*

* James 2:14-17, Deuteronomy 15:10-11, Matthew 23:23, Matthew 7:18-20, Mark 11:12-14, James 1:26-27, Romans 2:13, Matthew 25:34-46, and that's just for starters!

Zillah

Jakkass wrote: »

Infact I'd agree with his point, perhaps people should be more prayerful about things that impact their lives on a daily basis.

THIS JUST IN! Christian Apologist advocates prayer!

Kipperhell

I just don't understand what prayer is meant to do. On one side god has infinite wisdom and a plan therefore you can't petition god with prayer. On the other side why does he need you to beg and worship him?

Prayer obviously makes people feel good and based on the teaching of Christ you don't really need to pray but show in your actions your devotion to god.

Sounds like a fudge to me.

philologos

Kipperhell wrote: »

I just don't understand what prayer is meant to do. On one side god has infinite wisdom and a plan therefore you can't petition god with prayer. On the other side why does he need you to beg and worship him?

Who says that prayer is a shopping list of things to ask God for? - People thank God in prayer, people seek guidance from God in prayer, people ask God for strength where adversity can exist, people just spend time and talk to God about their day and people pray to get some peace from the busy world outside.

Kipperhell wrote: »

Prayer obviously makes people feel good and based on the teaching of Christ you don't really need to pray but show in your actions your devotion to god.

Christ did teach His disciples to pray. In some cases prayer even was the means of action:

Mark 9:28-29 (ESV) wrote:

And when He had entered the house, the disciples asked Him privately, "Why could we not cast it out?". And He said to them "This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer".

Jesus did not nullify prayer at all. In fact Jesus often prayed to the Father. At one point giving thanks that He could glorify the Father amongst people and for the works He had performed amongst them:

Matthew 11:25 (ESV) wrote:

At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to children;

Rather Jesus told us that we should keep prayer simple, we shouldn't be boastful about it (Matthew 6:7-15) in repetition of Ecclesiastes 5:2.

Philippians 4:4-6 (ESV) wrote:

Rejoice in the Lord always, again I will say, Rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand, do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

God listens to our prayers, but ultimately God will decide, and God will make His verdict according to what He has planned. Not all of our prayers will receive a yes. Then again, I'm somewhat glad that some of my prayers haven't received a yes because I would have regretted them. The intention is also key. When Solomon prayed to God for wisdom, he received much more because of his intention:

1 Kings 3:10-14 (ESV) wrote:

It pleased the Lord, that Solomon had asked this. And God said to him, "Because you have asked this, and have not asked for long life or riches or the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding to discern what is right, behold I now do according to your word. Behold, I give you a wise and discerning mind, so that nobody like you has been before you and none like you shall arise after you. I give you also what you have not asked, both riches and honour so that no other king shall compare with you, all your days. And if you will walk in my ways, keeping my statutes and my commandments, as your father David walked, then I will lengthen your days.

Kipperhell wrote: »

Sounds like a fudge to me.

If God answered all of our prayers, God would be a puppet, He would no longer by God. We would be God, and God would be our puppet.

However, this isn't the case. God has dominion over us, and we are subject to Him. He is a merciful and powerful God, if we have the right intention towards Him.

Calibos

Inevitably this leads to the question about why he answered the prayer of Jennifer Lopez' mother and helped her win a Million Dollars on a one armed bandit in Vegas, or answered the prayer of the Child Rapist who got off on a technicality, but didn't answer the prayer of the 250000 victims of the Tsunami. What a Fcuked up plan he has!

MrPudding

Calibos wrote: »

Inevitably this leads to the question about why he answered the prayer of Jennifer Lopez' mother and helped her win a Million Dollars on a one armed bandit in Vegas, or answered the prayer of the Child Rapist who got off on a technicality, but didn't answer the prayer of the 250000 victims of the Tsunami. What a Fcuked up plan he has!

He works in mysterious ways don't you know? Your puny human intellect cannot possibly hope to understand the utter utter stupidity which is the logic of a loving god that gives the appearance of not giving a fcuk about anything aside from sycophantic worshipping and ego massaging.

MrP

Kipperhell

Jakkass wrote: »

Who says that prayer is a shopping list of things to ask God for? -

Considering you have said by praying miracles have been performed around you I would have to say you said it. :P

As I said it sounds like a fudge to me. Any knowledge of statistic would see how people falsely understand possibility and unlikely events and attribute them to non causal elements.

eamo127

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I feel sorry for people with genuine arguments against Lisbon, 'cause nutjobs like these just make their side look silly

Unlike the nutjobs on the yes side? If you force people to vote again an identical document, how can you possibly call it democracy? The yes side cannot escape this glaring democratic deficit. How can the yes side ever complain again in the future if their cast votes are deemed unacceptable void in the future? But they see no problem doing this to those who voted no.

eamo127

To all you atheists ... to believe in nothing is the greatest leap of faith of all.

Wacker

eamo127 wrote: »

To all you atheists ... to believe in nothing is the greatest leap of faith of all.

Well that's me told. Is there a countmein.com?

Kipperhell

eamo127 wrote: »

To all you atheists ... to believe in nothing is the greatest leap of faith of all.

To all idiots who think atheists have a belief in nothing read a book.

robby^5

eamo127 wrote: »

To all you atheists ... to believe in nothing is the greatest leap of faith of all.

That statement doesnt make any sense.

Antbert

eamo127 wrote: »

To all you atheists ... to believe in nothing is the greatest leap of faith of all.

Belief in absense is not the same as absense in belief.

thebigcheese22

eamo127 wrote: »

To all you atheists ... to believe in nothing is the greatest leap of faith of all.

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

perhaps people should be more prayerful about things

This is a joke. It must be be. If it isn't, the end result was the same for me, regardless.

Flamed Diving

eamo127 wrote: »

To all you atheists ... to believe in nothing is the greatest leap of faith of all.

Invisible Sky Beast 1 - 0 No Invisible Sky Beast.

Zillah

Calibos wrote: »

Inevitably this leads to the question about why he answered the prayer of Jennifer Lopez' mother and helped her win a Million Dollars on a one armed bandit in Vegas, or answered the prayer of the Child Rapist who got off on a technicality, but didn't answer the prayer of the 250000 victims of the Tsunami. What a Fcuked up plan he has!

Somehow, some way, whatever it is, millions of dead babies is a key necessity for the greater good.

MetalDawg

Cóir = Taliban

MatthewVII

Jakkass wrote: »

I find that prayer often assists action.

However, if you mean that faith without any action is worthless. I personally would agree with you, and the Scriptures do too.

I find that faith without works gets nothing done. I also find that works backed by faith have curiously little difference in the outcome compared to works backed by no faith (ie someone just getting on with things instead of putting God in where none is needed)

Naz_st

Jakkass wrote: »

God listens to our prayers, but ultimately God will decide, and God will make His verdict according to what He has planned.

But if he already has a plan, what is there to decide? If your prayer coincides with his pre-existing plan, then your prayer is "answered" but whether you prayed or not, the outcome would have been the same. If your prayer does not coincide with his pre-existing plan, then you're out-of-luck and whether you prayed or not, the outcome would have beed the same.

The only situation where your prayer would make a difference is if your prayer does not coincide with his pre-existing plan AND God decides to change his (apparently imperfect) plan in order to help out with a specific issue in the specific life of one of the billions of beings on one of the billions of planets in one of the billions of galaxies in the universe. Hmmmm... I'm not convinced!

fisgon

Naz_st wrote: »

But if he already has a plan, what is there to decide? If your prayer coincides with his pre-existing plan, then your prayer is "answered" but whether you prayed or not, the outcome would have been the same. If your prayer does not coincide with his pre-existing plan, then you're out-of-luck and whether you prayed or not, the outcome would have beed the same.

The only situation where your prayer would make a difference is if your prayer does not coincide with his pre-existing plan AND God decides to change his (apparently imperfect) plan in order to help out with a specific issue in the specific life of one of the billions of beings on one of the billions of planets in one of the billions of galaxies in the universe. Hmmmm... I'm not convinced!

Reasonable, rational, makes sense, logical, but an utter waste of time in arguing with a believer who believes in prayer. No matter how many times you bang your head against it, the wall will always win.

aidan24326

Jakkass wrote: »

In fact I'd agree with his point, perhaps people should be more prayerful about things that impact their lives on a daily basis.

Yes, because mumbling to yourself is a really productive way to spend your time.

Flamed Diving

fisgon wrote: »

Reasonable, rational, makes sense, logical, but an utter waste of time in arguing with a believer who believes in prayer. No matter how many times you bang your head against it, the wall will alwasy win.

Sad, but true.