Priests that rape children

Quick question, if these priests go to confession before they die, do they get into heaven?

I'd appreciate some actual responses to this. It seems a bit mad that i can sodomize a 5 year old and if I confess in time, I'll still get into heaven.

Corksham

If they show genuine repentance and remorse in their souls then I don't see why not. Priests are humans and make mistakes in varying degrees just like we all do, and while all right thinking people hold the notion of an adult sodomizing an infant in high disdain it gives no-one the absolute right to judge others. The idea of a priest molesting a child strikes a chord in us all and as to whether there sins will be absolved is a matter between them and their maker (leaving aside the legal ramifications obviously)

Pompey Magnus

Deleted User wrote: »

Quick question, if these priests go to confession before they die, do they get into heaven?

I'd appreciate some actual responses to this. It seems a bit mad that i can sodomize a 5 year old and if I confess in time, I'll still get into heaven.

Dunno why you needed to specify the profession of the rapist but anyway the answer seems to be yes. There is only one unforgivable sin and raping children isn't it.

Matthew 12 says:

"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

As an add on to that, Mark 11:25 says

"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins"

So if the 5 year old rape victim does not forgive the rapist then God won't forgive him of his sins. Meaning the rapist goes to heaven and the child rape victim goes to Hell. Proof positive that Christianity has a great moral code which we should all aim to meet.

caseyann

I doubt it was including someone or anyone raping a child and getting away with it by going off to heaven.If thats the case god forgive me hell is sounding alot better to me.

caseyann

Corksham wrote: »

If they show genuine repentance and remorse in their souls then I don't see why not. Priests are humans and make mistakes in varying degrees just like we all do, and while all right thinking people hold the notion of an adult sodomizing an infant in high disdain it gives no-one the absolute right to judge others. The idea of a priest molesting a child strikes a chord in us all and as to whether there sins will be absolved is a matter between them and their maker (leaving aside the legal ramifications obviously)

Strikes a cord in us More like enrages and sickens us.

Disagree with you we have every right to judge them and i am for one going to.

Corksham

Corksham wrote: »

If they show genuine repentance and remorse in their souls then I don't see why not. Priests are humans and make mistakes in varying degrees just like we all do, and while all right thinking people hold the notion of an adult sodomizing an infant in high disdain it gives no-one the absolute right to judge others. The idea of a priest molesting a child strikes a chord in us all and as to whether there sins will be absolved is a matter between them and their maker (leaving aside the legal ramifications obviously)

what do you mean by "absolute right"? i am allowed to judge a child rapist surely?

Charco wrote: »

As an add on to that, Mark 11:25 says

"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins"

So if the 5 year old rape victim does not forgive the rapist then God won't forgive him of his sins. Meaning the rapist goes to heaven and the child rape victim goes to Hell. Proof positive that Christianity has a great moral code which we should all aim to meet.

I've never heard this before.. Do I have to forgive people who have sinned against me before I can have my own sins forgiven by God?

caseyann

Deleted User wrote: »

what do you mean by "absolute right"? i am allowed to judge a child rapist surely?



I've never heard this before.. Do I have to forgive people who have sinned against me before I can have my own sins forgiven by God?

Yes you do and no one can stop you from doing that.


It is a general thing,meaning forgive them what they have done so you can be at peace with yourself.It does not mean you will be not forgiven for your sins because you hate someone who has done something to you.Just means you torment yourself if you dont.Who gives a toss about them.

caseyann

caseyann wrote: »

It is a general thing,meaning forgive them what they have done so you can be at peace with yourself.It does not mean you will be not forgiven for your sins because you hate someone who has done something to you.Just means you torment yourself if you dont.Who gives a toss about them.

i wouldn't say that now.. bit dramatic to be honest. can you yourself forgive people or are ya just quoting the bible as an example?

caseyann

Deleted User wrote: »

i wouldn't say that now.. bit dramatic to be honest. can you yourself forgive people or are ya just quoting the bible as an example?

If you are the one sitting thinking about it and letting it invade your mind you are injuring yourself and they are still injuring you.
Yes i can forgive people for what they have done to me but doesn't mean i like them.Just means i have regained myself by letting it go.
Human nature torture yourself for what others do to you.

philologos

I have no doubt this thread will be locked before long. Hopefully not too long

gd75

Charco wrote: »

So if the 5 year old rape victim does not forgive the rapist then God won't forgive him of his sins. Meaning the rapist goes to heaven and the child rape victim goes to Hell. Proof positive that Christianity has a great moral code which we should all aim to meet.

Are you for real??!!!!!

Jakkass

Jakkass wrote: »

I have no doubt this thread will be locked before long. Hopefully not too long

It's a valid question with valid responses. It's a question meant strictly for Catholicism so the Christianity forum is the place for it.
What's the problem? You don't like discussing or acknowledging it?


Straight out Jakkass.. Do you think the priests in the Ryan Report will go to heaven if they confess their sins before death?

philologos

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a valid question with valid responses. It's a question meant strictly for Catholicism so the Christianity forum is the place for it.
What's the problem? You don't like discussing or acknowledging it?

There are probably hundreds of threads on the Ryan Report on boards right now. We've discussed all of this ad-nauseum before, that's why it gets a bit tedious as you can imagine.

It also makes an implication that the acts that were carried out by priests were acceptable according to Christian morality, which they certainly were not.

Deleted User wrote: »

Straight out Jakkass.. Do you think the priests in the Ryan Report will go to heaven if they confess their sins before death?

Confess, not necessarily. It depends how genuine it is and if they have really changed, I.E transformed, become a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 12:2). Confession can be ingenuine, and thus not worthy of forgiveness.

I also remember that God can assess minds and hearts in a way that humans cannot (Hebrews 4:12-13, 1 Samuel 16:7). No secrets are hidden from God.

God doesn't assess by human standards, but by divine standards which are infinitely better than our own. God doesn't see some acts as being unforgivable, if people have truly and genuinely changed there is a chance of forgiveness for them. That's what the Gospel is.

None of us are deserving of forgiveness, it is given as a gift to us it's not something that we can boast of (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:23, Romans 3:27).

No Christian says that these priests are deserving of forgiveness ever even if they repent, they claim that God's mercy is infinite, and only through Him is it possible to enter eternal life. (John 14:6, John 10:1, Mark 10:27). It is impossible for anyone on their own merit to be forgiven, we are forgiven on the merit of Jesus Christ who died for the sins of the world. In fact according to the Law of Moses, these sins would have deserved the death penalty (Romans 1:32).

That's the problem with your post. You assume we regard this as being deserving of forgiveness. I certainly don't, it is down to God's grace that this forgiveness has been given, not due to works.

gd75

Jakkass wrote: »

There are probably hundreds of threads on the Ryan Report on boards right now. We've discussed all of this ad-nauseum before, that's why it gets a bit tedious as you can imagine.

It also makes an implication that the acts that were carried out by priests were acceptable according to Christian morality, which they certainly were not.



Confess, not necessarily. It depends how genuine it is and if they have really changed, I.E transformed, become a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 12:2). Confession can be ingenuine, and thus not worthy of forgiveness.

I also remember that God can assess minds and hearts in a way that humans cannot (Hebrews 4:12-13, 1 Samuel 16:7). No secrets are hidden from God.

God doesn't assess by human standards, but by divine standards which are infinitely better than our own. God doesn't see some acts as being unforgivable, if people have truly and genuinely changed there is a chance of forgiveness for them. That's what the Gospel is.

None of us are deserving of forgiveness, it is given as a gift to us it's not something that we can boast of (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:23, Romans 3:27).

No Christian says that these priests are deserving of forgiveness ever even if they repent, they claim that God's mercy is infinite, and only through Him is it possible to enter eternal life. (John 14:6, John 10:1, Mark 10:27). It is impossible for anyone on their own merit to be forgiven, we are forgiven on the merit of Jesus Christ who died for the sins of the world. In fact according to the Law of Moses, these sins would have deserved the death penalty (Romans 1:32).

That's the problem with your post. You assume we regard this as being deserving of forgiveness. I certainly don't, it is down to God's grace that this forgiveness has been given, not due to works.

They should be in prison with the rest of the child rapists, maybe then they'll get a taste of their own medicine. Just because they wear a white collar round their necks doesn't make them above the law. We all answer to a higher authority but a crime's a crime regardless of who or what you are.

Jakkass

Jakkass wrote: »

That's the problem with your post. You assume we regard this as being deserving of forgiveness. I certainly don't, it is down to God's grace that this forgiveness has been given, not due to works.

Maybe this is my big problem with Christianity.. I think there are many crimes that should never be forgiven even if the person fully repents and has genuinely changed. The damage has been done to another and the perpetrator should be judged forever by the act as far as I'm concerned.

Fundamentally, I can never be a true Catholic if I hold this belief, can I?

PDN

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe this is my big problem with Christianity.. I think there are many crimes that should never be forgiven even if the person fully repents and has genuinely changed. The damage has been done to another and the perpetrator should be judged forever by the act as far as I'm concerned.

Fundamentally, I can never be a true Catholic if I hold this belief, can I?

The Christian position is that we are all sinners. The tendency is to point the finger at a child abuser and how terrible they are, but then to see our sins as very minor and hardly worth bothering about.

A child abuser (it makes no difference if they are a priest or not) doesn't deserve to be forgiven. But then again, neither do I deserve to be forgiven.

I'm not a Catholic, but I believe that the key thing is that we repent from our sins, and the biblical word for repentance is not just saying sorry - it's doing a U-turn in your life and starting to live a different way.

If I insist on holding bitterness against the people who abused me when I was a child (not priests btw) then why should I think I will receive the grace and forgiveness that I am unwilling to extend to others?

philologos

gd75 wrote: »

They should be in prison with the rest of the child rapists, maybe then they'll get a taste of their own medicine. Just because they wear a white collar round their necks doesn't make them above the law. We all answer to a higher authority but a crime's a crime regardless of who or what you are.

gd75, if you read my post you would realise I was discussing the Biblical implications of the sins of the priests. I am not talking legal implications, or jail time. Please try to take my posts in context.

I never said that rape wasn't a crime in this thread, and it's slightly dishonest of you to imply that.

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe this is my big problem with Christianity.. I think there are many crimes that should never be forgiven even if the person fully repents and has genuinely changed. The damage has been done to another and the perpetrator should be judged forever by the act as far as I'm concerned.

Perhaps. I think when you realise what grace is yourself, when you feel that you have been forgiven for what you have done wrong to others, and when you have another chance to put things right it is easier to empathise with people.

I believe all people can change. Paul was a murderer and became one amongst the Apostles. I believe in Damascus Road encounters for any sinner, from rapist to murderer.

Forgiving is hard though. Especially when someone has hurt you. I can't imagine what it feels like for the victims of sexual abuse, and I'm not going to claim that I do. However, I believe that Christianity and Christ's example has to live on, and has to have an impact in our world of darkness

Deleted User wrote: »

Fundamentally, I can never be a true Catholic if I hold this belief, can I?

I don't know, I'm not a Catholic at all let alone a true one

chozometroid

Deleted User wrote:

I've never heard this before.. Do I have to forgive people who have sinned against me before I can have my own sins forgiven by God?

caseyann wrote: »

Yes you do and no one can stop you from doing that.


It is a general thing,meaning forgive them what they have done so you can be at peace with yourself.It does not mean you will be not forgiven for your sins because you hate someone who has done something to you.Just means you torment yourself if you dont.Who gives a toss about them.

I think you are totally wrong and I would like to see the scripture to back this up.
I think forgiving others being a prerequisite to having our own sins forgiven is an essential doctrine of Christianity. It is related to not thinking you are better or more holy than anyone else. If you are going to be forgiven of your sins, how could you not forgive someone else. It's like saying they don't deserve to be forgiven.

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Matthew 6
14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Also, God loves us, but if we do not love others, we are not going to be with God in heaven.

Matthew 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Luke 10
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.



Matthew 5:43-48 (King James Version)

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Stephentlig

www.thebloodofthemartyrs.blogspot.com

kelly1

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe this is my big problem with Christianity.. I think there are many crimes that should never be forgiven even if the person fully repents and has genuinely changed. The damage has been done to another and the perpetrator should be judged forever by the act as far as I'm concerned.

Fundamentally, I can never be a true Catholic if I hold this belief, can I?

Why do you want to put a limit on God's mercy which surely is one of God's greatest virtues, if that's the correct word.

As a Catholic, I believe people guilty of such crimes will suffer in Purgatory for their heinous deeds. As far as I'm concerned, God's justice must be satified and we can't simply confess/repent at the last minute and expect to be welcomed into Heaven as if nothing had happened.

sbsquarepants

kelly1 wrote: »

As a Catholic, I believe people guilty of such crimes will suffer in Purgatory for their heinous deeds. .

Wasn't purgatory done away with by either this pope or the last one??

kelly1

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Wasn't purgatory done away with by either this pope or the last one??

No, you're thinking of Limbo which was never dogmatically defined whereas Purgator is an article of faith so will never change.

MrPudding

kelly1 wrote: »

No, you're thinking of Limbo which was never dogmatically defined whereas Purgator is an article of faith so will never change.

Is purgatory mentioned in the bible? Where does it's existance come from?

MrP

Yellowblackbird

chozometroid wrote: »

46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

I think that you are being a bit harsh on the lads in the pub trade. They have had a rough year of it, with even the dwyer bros going insolvent and other high profile pub closures. And smoking ban and the whole drink driving thing. So quoting the bible against them is not on

kelly1

MrPudding wrote: »

Is purgatory mentioned in the bible? Where does it's existance come from?

MrP

No, the word purgatory is never mentioned but it can be inferred from scripture and Sacred Tradition has always taught about the existence of purgatory.

See this: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Here's some verses to support it:

1 Peter 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

1 Peter 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. 16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

"In these passages, Paul is talking about how God judges our works after death by using a string of metaphors (we are God's building; works are good and bad materials, etc.). Paul says that if a person builds with good materials, he will receive a reward (verse 14). If he builds with a mixture
of good and bad materials, his work is burned up, but he is still saved (verse 15). If he only builds with bad materials, he has destroyed the temple, and God will destroy him (verse 17)."


Matthew 5:26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

"Jesus is saying that one can be forgiven either in this age (earthly life) or in the age to come (after death). Those who are in heaven (which is in the age to come) have no need for forgiveness (true), and those who are in hell (which is in the age to come) cannot be forgiven (true). Therefore, there must be another state in the age to come where we can be forgiven (true). This is purgatory."


Matthew 18:32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant,
even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother
from your hearts.