Why cant we Irish build under passes?

Saab Ed

What is it with our engineers in Ireland that we cant build over or under passes. We build everything else instead like roundabouts with traffic lights and stick ( dangerous ) pedestrian crossings on dual carraigeways, like madness. Why cant we just dig down a little bit and shove a road under another one or people under it. Im just back from Austria and they manage this in the middle of a large city like Vienna nevermind anywhere else rather than create a bottleneck traffic lighted junction. What is the Irish road designers aversion to doing anything other than a 4-way crossroads with traffic lights. Red cow roundabout being the classic case. Done wrong God knows how many times and its an eternal building site. Now its finally right ( at a huge extra cost to go back and do it properly ) and there's no traffic problem at all. Surely to dig an under pass at a busy junction is in the long term a better bet. Yes it might cost more initialy but the economic losses of stopped traffic nevermind the safety and polution aspect most be seen as a longer term benefit. Just a thought. Why do we always look at other countries and wonder why we dont or cant do what seems to be so simple!

peasant

simple answer ...money

It's cheaper to do it arse about tit and when you finally have no other choice but to do it properly it's in another years' (decades') budget

Saab Ed

peasant wrote: »

simple answer ...money

It's cheaper to do it arse about tit and when you finally have no other choice but to do it properly it's in another years' (decades') budget

Yeah I know and thats the bit that really gets me because its not really cheaper at all. I cant remember the exact stats but I remember reading an article years ago where by if they had built the M50 in the first place to its specification now , it would have cost around 4 - 5 times less than we ended up paying for it. They did actualy propose doing it properly in the first place and guess why they didnt.....You're right Peasant MONEY

JHMEG

Also policy. Dublin City Council are anti-car, and have admitted as much. Shur they even admitted on George Hooke that they time the lights so that you get red after red after red on the quays for example.

Gregor Samsa

JHMEG wrote: »

Also policy. Dublin City Council are anti-car, and have admitted as much. Shur they even admitted on George Hooke that they time the lights so that you get red after red after red on the quays for example.

um, by that logic, you'd also get green after green after green if you got a green light at your first light.

If they really wanted to hassle traffic, they'd stagger the sequence along the route. Not that I'm giving them ideas...

To answer the OP's question, yes it's down to money, but it's also that the planning powers that be in this country have a deathly fear of anything that sticks too far up in the air, or too far down in the ground. They like everything to be at, or near ground level. Hence, no skyscrapers, no underground rail systems, no underpasses or proper fly-overs, no decent bridges, and hardly any tunnels. But plenty of 3 bed-semis, dormer bungalows and roundabouts painted on T-junctions.

JHMEG

phutyle wrote: »

If they really wanted to hassle traffic, they'd stagger the sequence along the route. Not that I'm giving them ideas...

Which is what they do already I'm only repeating above what they said.

South quays is a case in point. Anyone ever got greens the whole way? I certainly haven't anyway. Anyone ever got reds the whole way? I have, lots of times. Hence I take them at their word.

PCPhoto

Saab Ed wrote: »

What is it with our engineers in Ireland that we cant build over or under passes. We build everything else instead like roundabouts with traffic lights and stick ( dangerous ) pedestrian crossings on dual carraigeways, like madness. Why cant we just dig down a little bit and shove a road under another one or people under it. Im just back from Austria and they manage this in the middle of a large city like Vienna nevermind anywhere else rather than create a bottleneck traffic lighted junction. What is the Irish road designers aversion to doing anything other than a 4-way crossroads with traffic lights. Red cow roundabout being the classic case. Done wrong God knows how many times and its an eternal building site. Now its finally right ( at a huge extra cost to go back and do it properly ) and there's no traffic problem at all. Surely to dig an under pass at a busy junction is in the long term a better bet. Yes it might cost more initialy but the economic losses of stopped traffic nevermind the safety and polution aspect most be seen as a longer term benefit. Just a thought. Why do we always look at other countries and wonder why we dont or cant do what seems to be so simple!

We cant build underpasses because we have yet to master the art of making a road.

galwaytt

PCPhoto wrote: »

We cant build underpasses because we have yet to master the art of making a road.

New M6 here, 10 days after opening - gosh - UNDERPASS - for us locals, and, as they say in Houston, there was a problem: it filled with water to 1.0m deep.

A tad much for yer average Polo, like.........:)

artanevilla

Jaysus imagine how long we'd take to build them as well.

L1011

phutyle wrote: »

um, by that logic, you'd also get green after green after green if you got a green light at your first light.

Not if you ensure the light timings are different at each junction.

anyway, the traffic management system DCC has apparently doesn't allow 'green waves'. I've had one from Heuston to the Four Courts one morning when going for the ferry, but thats just a fluke.

Martron

a fact that we keep forgetting is that dublin is nearly 1000 years old. well the inner city is.

and point 2 is that a lot of european cities were levelled during ww2.

giving them the oppurtunity to start fresh and use more modern techniques of trafficc managemnt

the new m1 interchange will not have traffic lights on it. so step in a right direction. ( well the inner interchange will but the outer m1 to the m50 interchange wont)

Martron

PCPhoto wrote: »

We cant build underpasses because we have yet to master the art of making a road.

this is a crazy statement.

i just came back from european road trip. roads in france are good, as with germany. but they are old.

ireland has fantastic new roads..

the new m8.

the m50 will be good when finished.
the m4
the m1

all great roads

i dont see how you can say we cant build a good road. crazy

Greenmachine

Martron wrote: »

a fact that we keep forgetting is that dublin is nearly 1000 years old. well the inner city is.

and point 2 is that a lot of european cities were levelled during ww2.

giving them the oppurtunity to start fresh and use more modern techniques of trafficc managemnt

the new m1 interchange will not have traffic lights on it. so step in a right direction. ( well the inner interchange will but the outer m1 to the m50 interchange wont)

Plenty of Dublin city was flattened during the 1916 rising. Yet nothing improved.

Zube

Greenmachine wrote: »

Plenty of Dublin city was flattened during the 1916 rising.

Can you name one single building that was "flattened"?

Martron

big difference with the quantities of cars in 1945 than 1916

donvito99

Martron wrote: »

a fact that we keep forgetting is that dublin is nearly 1000 years old. well the inner city is.

And they had roads in Dublin a thousand years ago?

donvito99

Zube wrote: »

Can you name one single building that was "flattened"?

Ah, its just a scratch...

Martron

donvito99 wrote: »

And they had roads in Dublin a thousand years ago?

well sort of. but whatever they had they were not design for traffic and we still livin here based on an old city.

look at american cities around 100 years old. grid system.

look at older cities. you have radial sytem. as in no planning the roads radius from a focal point. each radius usually the old edge of the town.

MagicMarker

They don't build underpasses as they haven't figured out how to stop them filling up with water.

marinbike

Saab Ed wrote: »

What is it with our engineers in Ireland that we cant build over or under passes. We build everything else instead like roundabouts with traffic lights and stick ( dangerous ) pedestrian crossings on dual carraigeways, like madness. Why cant we just dig down a little bit and shove a road under another one or people under it. Im just back from Austria and they manage this in the middle of a large city like Vienna nevermind anywhere else rather than create a bottleneck traffic lighted junction. What is the Irish road designers aversion to doing anything other than a 4-way crossroads with traffic lights. Red cow roundabout being the classic case. Done wrong God knows how many times and its an eternal building site. Now its finally right ( at a huge extra cost to go back and do it properly ) and there's no traffic problem at all. Surely to dig an under pass at a busy junction is in the long term a better bet. Yes it might cost more initialy but the economic losses of stopped traffic nevermind the safety and polution aspect most be seen as a longer term benefit. Just a thought. Why do we always look at other countries and wonder why we dont or cant do what seems to be so simple!

Thats because we have backward planners who design our roadways/bridges etc. Its also due to the high costs that cowboy contractors would probably charge to build them.

I remember a stupid arguement that 'An Bord Pleanala' used to have regarding the building of overpasses in cities. They considered them to resemble city slums!!

I was in the Miami last month and there were overpasses, absolutely no evidence of any 'slum'.

ardmacha

They don't build underpasses as they haven't figured out how to stop them filling up with water.

If only they had good engineers like in the North.

Martron

i love this argument. it keeps getting better and better.

Define a cowboy contractor.

You obviously dont understand how a road is built or even the way a contract is awarded.

There is a rigourous tendering process for any contract. Then usually the most finacially advantageous contractor is awarded the contract. may not be the cheapest. probably is not the most expensive either. They are chosen because their experience in that area of construction usually. even if a " cowboy" slips through the net , they are then prevented from doing a "cowboy" job by the strict quality procedures in place.

For example with the m50.

The nra have inspectors that constantly monitor all works.
then the m50 concession who will run the road also constantly monitor the works.

then you have designer representatives and then a quality department within the m50 construction company itself.

so there is no way a bad job will be done.

this leads me to the last picture shown with a part of the m1 up the north flooded. judging by the signs it was still in construction phase. and although the road was open something like the drainage had obviously not been completed.

Again your comments show that you have no understanding of the way a road is constructed or even the possible problems that may be encountered when trying to expand a live road.

so basicaly if you want these great roads that seemingly dont exist in ireland you have to put up with temporary flooding.and construction traffic jams

cost is an issue but its not to high priced contractors. its down to ireland just not having the money to fund these projects.

anyway rant over . there are 2 sides to every story and not trying to start a big war here but just shedding a bit of light from the other side of the argument.

whiterebel

Martron wrote: »

this is a crazy statement.

i just came back from european road trip. roads in france are good, as with germany. but they are old.

ireland has fantastic new roads..

the new m8.

the m50 will be good when finished.
the m4
the m1

all great roads

i dont see how you can say we cant build a good road. crazy

Are you mad??? Look at roads that are 10/12 years old and the potholes on them. The East Cork parkway opened in 97 is a perfect example. They obviously didn't seal the join between the slip road and the main carriageway because at one junction alone there are potholes the length of it every 2 feet .
An engineer once went in great detail about why its so hard to build roads in Cork, going on about how the ground is boggy. When I asked about Amsterdam he went red and changed the subject pretty rapidly, because I've seen them building roads there and putting down about 15 feet of hardcore. We'd be lucky to see 15 inches of hardcore here. Some stretches of the Glanmire bypass are getting pretty rough now too.

You said it yourself, the roads in France and Germany are old, but by and large in very good nick. Ours are much younger and full of potholes. Same as everything else, false economy in everything we do.......spend €50M+ renting portakabins for schools rather than building......

Cool Mo D

In France, you pay a lot more tolls though. It costs €80 in tolls alone to drive from one end of France to the other. We have tolls too, but they are a fraction of that - it will cost about €5 to drive from Dublin to Cork when all the roads being built are finished.

whiterebel

Cool Mo D wrote: »

In France, you pay a lot more tolls though. It costs €80 in tolls alone to drive from one end of France to the other. We have tolls too, but they are a fraction of that - it will cost about €5 to drive from Dublin to Cork when all the roads being built are finished.

€80? It cost €18 two years ago for the whole length of the Bordeaux motorway, unless their inflation is worse than ours........Its already at €5 for Fermoy and M50, and we have Portlaoise to come yet. By the way, how much do the French pay in Road tax and duty/VAT on cars on top of their tolls?

Martron

the roads in france and germany are well maintained.

maintainance is the issue.

and as said the tolls in france are massive. i dont think that would be tolerated here.

but thats why frances roads are good.

so we cant moan about crap roads if we not willing to pay for their up keep.

x in the city

Japan also has massive, huge tolls. amongst the highest in the world i belive.

but what japan, and france and etc have in common is a very good road network

apart from the new motorways made in recent years, the irish road infrastructure is a absolute joke.

for a developed nation of the world, its basically LOL

I beg anyone to counter this with a statement to prove otherwise

alias no.9

Martron wrote: »

well sort of. but whatever they had they were not design for traffic and we still livin here based on an old city.

look at american cities around 100 years old. grid system.

look at older cities. you have radial sytem. as in no planning the roads radius from a focal point. each radius usually the old edge of the town.

It's a bit of a stretch to suggest we're constrained by a 1000 year old streetscape. From the mid 16th century to the mid 19th century, much of the 1000 year old parts of Dublin were completely transformed by the wide streets comission. There's very little left from before that. Streets were realigned and amalgamated, entire streets demolished, etc... Not quite 6 lane highways through city streets but certainly scope for both pedestrian and traffic underpasses at some busy junctions.

Martron

ok fair point.

but then what would people prefer. underpasses in the city for the sake of having underpasses or new motorways.

we dont have the money to do both . and actually dont have the money to do any of it.

but will never please everyone.

whiterebel

I still don't know where €80 is coming from for driving the length of France. I paid €18 to go from Biarritz to Rennes which is about 660KM+ which works out about out 37km per euro. To go to Dublin from Cork at the moment for me is 255km and it costs me €5, which is about 51km/euro BUT if they put €3 on for Portlaoise, price rockets to 31km/euro.

Now I like tolls the same way that Brian Lenihan likes maths, but I have to say the tolled motorways in France are at least fair. When I pay the toll in Fermoy at the moment I go all the way to Blanchardstown for €2ish. However, anyone coming on to the M50 at the junction before the toll and going to Blanchardstown is expected to pay the same........On the A10 if I go 2/3 junctions and turn off there is a toll booth on every exit, so I pay a small amount, but if I stay on the whole way past Rennes its €18. Seems fairer to me.

Martron

the toll fares in france baffle me because i drove from roscoff to paris then up into luxembourg. must have cost me nearly 40 euro.

one toll was 13 euro.

Martron

one good thing about the french system.
i came across a toll bridge where you entred the tolled zone. you take a ticket and then as you exit the motorway you give your ticket back in . the furthewr you move along the motorway the more you are charged.

instead of flat rate for no matter how much you use it

Cool Mo D

Go to http://www.viamichelin.co.uk/viamichelin/gbr/dyn/controller/Itineraires

Put in a trip for Cherbourg to Marseille. I get a toll cost of €66.90 in tolls one way. Its a 1000 km journey, including a single toll of €30.40! at Villefranche-Limas on the A6.

Compare that to Ireland - Dublin city centre to Cork is €1.90 in tolls for a 300 km journey.

According tothis document, the toll for the M8 after Portlaoise will be €1.33 in 2004 prices, so about €1.50 when it opens. Even of you avoid all the tolls on the way, the large majority of the route is free motorway.

Saab Ed

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Put in a trip for Cherbourg to Marseille. I get a toll cost of €66.90 in tolls one way. Its a 1000 km journey, including a single toll of €30.40! at Villefranche-Limas on the A6.

Compare that to Ireland - Dublin city centre to Cork is €1.90 in tolls for a 300 km journey.

According tothis document, the toll for the M8 after Portlaoise will be €1.33 in 2004 prices, so about €1.50 when it opens. Even of you avoid all the tolls on the way, the large majority of the route is free motorway.

Lets compare apples with apples here. Dublin Port via the Port tunnel €12. M50 Toll bridge €3 un-taged. M8 Port Laoise when it opens €1.50. Now that makes it €16.50 in my book for a third of the journey. Dont forget motor tax here is a lot higher than in France and the excuse that you could avoid the Tunnel doesnt count because you can avoid every toll road in France too.

Anyway this is a seperate argument. My original point is that we never seem to design a road properly. Crossroads with traffic lights everywhere. Why oh why cant we build proper junctions. Like I said in my original post , I think its crazy stopping an entire dualcarraige way for a pedestrian crossing i.e Palmerstown in Dublin or Newland X. What is it that we cant seem to think outside the box at all.

Idbatterim

what is the problem with buidling a 3 x 3 underpass for the newlands cross interchange? I suggested that a while ago, surely it would be a hell of alot cheaper and less of an eyesore?

alias no.9

Saab Ed wrote: »

Like I said in my original post , I think its crazy stopping an entire dualcarraige way for a pedestrian crossing i.e Palmerstown in Dublin or Newland X.

There's a pedestrian bridge at Palmerstown, there should however be a proper grade seperated junction (underpass, slip roads, etc...) at the Kenelsfort Road junction with the N4 and the other set of lights should be replaced with an underpass linking the houses on the south of the N4 with the village on the north but with no access to the N4. There'll be no delays getting out onto the N4 through the village if the other junction is sorted out.

Idbatterim wrote: »

what is the problem with buidling a 3 x 3 underpass for the newlands cross interchange? I suggested that a while ago, surely it would be a hell of alot cheaper and less of an eyesore?

It's in the pipeline.

Bogger77

Saab Ed wrote: »

Lets compare apples with apples here. Dublin Port via the Port tunnel €12. M50 Toll bridge €3 un-taged. M8 Port Laoise when it opens €1.50. Now that makes it €16.50 in my book for a third of the journey. Dont forget motor tax here is a lot higher than in France and the excuse that you could avoid the Tunnel doesnt count because you can avoid every toll road in France too.

Anyway this is a seperate argument. My original point is that we never seem to design a road properly. Crossroads with traffic lights everywhere. Why oh why cant we build proper junctions. Like I said in my original post , I think its crazy stopping an entire dualcarraige way for a pedestrian crossing i.e Palmerstown in Dublin or Newland X. What is it that we cant seem to think outside the box at all.

Why add in the Port Tunnel?
You do not go to Dublin City center, or the Airport via the Tunnel. That's dropping e12 from your figures straight away. Not if you're a car driver at least.
Dublin City Center is usually O'Connell Bridge, Cork City center is usually Patricks Street. I cant see any mapping program routing you via the M50 Toll, or via the Port Tunnel.

Apples and pears, I think you were comparing Ed.

whiterebel

Bogger77 wrote: »

Why add in the Port Tunnel?
You do not go to Dublin City center, or the Airport via the Tunnel. That's dropping e12 from your figures straight away. Not if you're a car driver at least.
Dublin City Center is usually O'Connell Bridge, Cork City center is usually Patricks Street. I cant see any mapping program routing you via the M50 Toll, or via the Port Tunnel.

Apples and pears, I think you were comparing Ed.

Because the poster was using Motorways, you are using Dublin city centre streets. The poster driving though France had the option of using non Motorway roads too, and paying nothing.

I can't see the toll being €1.50 now either, considering the Govt themselves have given good example of ripping off toll roads by increasing charges 50%.

Bogger77

whiterebel wrote: »

Because the poster was using Motorways, you are using Dublin city centre streets. The poster driving though France had the option of using non Motorway roads too, and paying nothing.

I can't see the toll being €1.50 now either, considering the Govt themselves have given good example of ripping off toll roads by increasing charges 50%.

Compare that to Ireland - Dublin city centre to Cork is €1.90 in tolls for a 300 km journey.

was the amount quoted for current toll between the two points. The marked route between between those two points does not and will not include the M50 at Liffey Bridge or Port Tunnel.

If I enter Marseilles city center as my departure point, and Calais as my destination, will a decent mapping program or website route me through an indirect route, just to up the Toll amount to justify a lost cause?
From what I recall, there's no where in this country with a City center is connected directly via motorway. Belfast is almost connect, Bristol, Manchester and Glasgow have motorways in city center. To travel from Dublin, Cork, Paris, London, Lyon and Madrid city centers, you first travel on surface regular streets.

marinbike

Martron wrote: »

even if a " cowboy" slips through the net , they are then prevented from doing a "cowboy" job by the strict quality procedures in place.

For example with the m50.

The nra have inspectors that constantly monitor all works.
then the m50 concession who will run the road also constantly monitor the works.

then you have designer representatives and then a quality department within the m50 construction company itself.

so there is no way a bad job will be done.

Really?

Except theres one major flaw that the 'cowboy contractors' didn't manage to get right when they upgraded the now finished sections of the M50: There are no illumination lights on the gantry signs! Go to mainland Europe and travel on any highway with 3+ lanes and you will usually find that the signs are clearly visible at night time.

Job not so well done afterall despite all these quality assurances!

Tipp Man

Great post Saab man, do you know what really gets on my nerves, they put a roundabout at a busy intersection, fair enough, they then proceed to put traffic lights (for pedestrians) at all exits for the roundabout, so as soon as anybody wants to cross 1 road, the whole roundabout grinds to a standstill as traffic can't get off 1 of the exits. My worst experience of this is on the Malahide Road which is a complete joke, there are 3, i think, roundabout set up in this way, pure madness and completly eliminates the pros of a roundabout, they'd be better off with just simple crossroads than this mess.

Also does someone who owns a traffic light making company have some serious connections because Dublin council will throw a traffic light up faster than it goes from green to red. There are way too many traffic lights in the city. Seriously can you drive more than 50 yards anywhere in the city centre without meeting traffic lights, its madness

L1011

Saab Ed wrote: »

Lets compare apples with apples here. Dublin Port via the Port tunnel €12. M50 Toll bridge €3 un-taged. M8 Port Laoise when it opens €1.50. Now that makes it €16.50 in my book for a third of the journey. Dont forget motor tax here is a lot higher than in France and the excuse that you could avoid the Tunnel doesnt count because you can avoid every toll road in France too.

Its generally logical to avoid the tunnel if you're not affected by 5 axle ban and heading towards Cork - tunnel and M50 will take longer than through the city. Its rarely logical to avoid the French tolls on the free route network.

Its not a valid comparison. For a trip to Belfast the tunnel would be. Anywhere to the south, its deliberate obfuscation of the facts.

marinbike

MYOB wrote: »

Its generally logical to avoid the tunnel if you're not affected by 5 axle ban and heading towards Cork - tunnel and M50 will take longer than through the city. Its rarely logical to avoid the French tolls on the free route network.

Its not a valid comparison. For a trip to Belfast the tunnel would be. Anywhere to the south, its deliberate obfuscation of the facts.

But we pay Road Tax in Ireland (unlike France), so there should be no need to toll our highways.

We pay the most expensive Road Tax in the whole EU and that should more than cover the need to toll our roads here.

marinbike

Tipp Man wrote: »

50 yards

Whats '50 yards'? Aren't we in the metric system now? You know..... Metres, mm, km/h etc.

Saab Ed

Tipp Man wrote: »

Also does someone who owns a traffic light making company have some serious connections because Dublin council will throw a traffic light up faster than it goes from green to red. There are way too many traffic lights in the city. Seriously can you drive more than 50 yards anywhere in the city centre without meeting traffic lights, its madness

Thank you. I've said that a thousand times. Its just unreal the spots the traffic lights turn up. I've seen roundabouts pulled out to put in un-needed traffic lights....OVER PASSES PLEASE