An invitation to have your say.

Dav

The entire debate about how to vote for the Lisbon Treaty comes down to four questions:

• Why should I vote yes?
• Why should I vote no?
• If the Lisbon Treaty is voted in, what happens?
• If the Lisbon treaty is not voted in, what happens?

Each campaign, whether on the YES or NO side, seems to give different answers. We accept completely there are many reasons, but we’d like to see one place where people from each side, no matter what their background, their affiliation or qualifications, feel they can come to answer those questions and hopefully explain to people who're undecided how they should vote on October 2.

Invitation:

To help people, we've set up this forum on Boards.ie where we’re inviting people to address our readers directly and tell them in simple terms why they should vote. Posts will be published daily and in these two important weeks before the vote, it may help some people to make up their minds.

This is an open invitation to everyone to either join Boards.ie and post or email us to have your post published. We’re also more than willing to have video interviews or Q&A sessions where people can answer questions posted to them directly.

This forum is independent of our politics forum and is specifically aimed not at the political experts or enthusiasts, but people who would appreciate some plain speaking facts and figures to help us make up our minds. We invite campaigners to use their real names and state any relevant affiliations they have.

For those campaigners from organisations, we're happy to have you represent same with logos and links to your website.

For more information, if you have queries or to become involved, please contact us directly at hello@boards.ie or PM Dav or Darragh on the site.

Voting the right way is important to us. We hope you’ll help us – and other people – make the right decision.

Dav
on behalf of Boards.ie

Statistics:

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To put that 132,000 people in perspective, comparing to the 2006 population of each province, city and county census from the Central Statistics Office, that makes that membership of Boards.ie bigger than the individual population areas of Dublin City, Kilkenny, Laois, Longford, Louth, Offaly, Westmeath, Wexford, Wicklow, Clare, Cork City, Limerick City, Limerick County, North Tipperary, South Tipperary, Waterford, Galway City, Leitrim, Roscommon, Sligo, Cavan and Monaghan.

Furthermore, according to the June 2009 ABC Island of Ireland report, which figures for newspapers, consumer magazines, business magazines and online properties for the island of Ireland, Boards.ie is in the top five most visited websites in Ireland and beats the circulation figures of many newspapers.

Tigger

have to disagree

the debate has five questions

Why should I vote yes?
Why should I vote no?
If the Lisbon Treaty is voted in, what happens?
If the Lisbon treaty is not voted in, what happens?

and the biggy why when the will of the people has been expressed are we being asked to vote again

FutureTaoiseach

Where is the Logos section? I would like to nominate myself for the "No" position.

TheJones

Irrespective of which way the population of Ireland votes on Lisbon 2, if the larger EU countries who are attempting to reform the union for their own advantage at the cost of smaller states like ourselves, do not like our democratic decision our own politicians will yet again dismiss our vote as that on which was based on sheer ignorance of the treaty and return to their Continental friends both apolgetic and promising another vote in the distant future.

Does anyone else find this pathetic? There is nothing within the treaty either denying or promising jobs, an increase or reduction in pay scales is also absent and absolultey nothing different than the first treaty which was rejected is listed. What is listed however is the fact that Irelands voting weight will be reduced so can anyone and I mean anyone tell me how voting yes to a reform bill that reduces our decision making ability in areas including such topical issues as agriculture, fisheries and even finance can be in Irelands interest, economic or otherwise apart from making temporary friends among Europes elected representatives?

rsta

I can't see any benefit to voting yes.

We've been told we won't lose our Commissioner in Europe and that Europe can't change our laws on abortion and euthanasia. But I still don't know what actual benefit will come out of voting yes, except for the government to save face. And the mess we are in at the moment doesn't inspire me to help them.

I'll be voting no again.

Belfast

* Why should I vote yes?
if you want move decisions made in centrally in europe rather that at state level.
if you have read the treaty and understood it and are happy with it
if you are trust the Dail to make future changes to the Lisbon treaty without referendum
if you want the EU to be more involved it the affairs of other countries, sending armies to do peace keeping or get rid of nasty dictators
if you believe that the assures give after last vote will have legal effect
if you want the EU to have more control of crime fighting
if you are happy with have the same treaty being voted on so soon after it was rejected by the Irish people, also the French people and the Danes



* Why should I vote no?
if you think too much power is being move to away form Ireland.
if you think the treaty is too long and complex
if you have read or not fully understood the treaty.
if you are do not trust the Dail to make future changes to the Lisbon treaty without referendum
if you are unhappy at the Lisbon treaty was not read by most of the Dail before or after they voted to purt it to the people.
if you do not want the EU interfering in the affairs of other countries
if you do not believe that the assures give after last vote will have legal effect
if you want you do not want the EU to be involved in crime fighting.
if you are not happy with have the same treaty being voted on so soon after it was rejected by the Irish people, also the French people and the Danes

* If the Lisbon Treaty is voted in, what happens?
more power will move to away for Ireland and more of our law will be made in Brussels.
more pressure on Ireland to adopt the Big government tax and spend policies of the rest of Europe.
Europe may become more like American trying to spread democracy around the would whether other countries want it or not
longer term it is hard to say, depends on what future changes will be and to the treaty and what view the courts take over this long and complex document

* If the Lisbon treaty is not voted in, what happens?
if No vote the treaty cannot go ahead.
they will probably bring it in bit by bit slowly over may years.
some parts of the treaty may not be possible to bringing in this way.
if the treaty was to go ahead with a no vote the other member have to leave the EU and set up a new version without Ireland.
Ireland would probably then have a free trade agreement with the new setup.
I do not think this will happen
that all depends on haw baldly the rest of the EU wants this treaty.

twinytwo

TheJones wrote: »

Irrespective of which way the population of Ireland votes on Lisbon 2, if the larger EU countries who are attempting to reform the union for their own advantage at the cost of smaller states like ourselves, do not like our democratic decision our own politicians will yet again dismiss our vote as that on which was based on sheer ignorance of the treaty and return to their Continental friends both apolgetic and promising another vote in the distant future.

Does anyone else find this pathetic? There is nothing within the treaty either denying or promising jobs, an increase or reduction in pay scales is also absent and absolultey nothing different than the first treaty which was rejected is listed. What is listed however is the fact that Irelands voting weight will be reduced so can anyone and I mean anyone tell me how voting yes to a reform bill that reduces our decision making ability in areas including such topical issues as agriculture, fisheries and even finance can be in Irelands interest, economic or otherwise apart from making temporary friends among Europes elected representatives?

i would also like to add.. when they pushed nice they never told us that within a few years 1/10th of our population would be polish... we can also kiss goodbye to our fisheries and farming... private property laws out the window.. etc etc as i have said numerous times before people are kidding themselves if they honeslty believe that we will be allowed to keep our commissioner when other countries cant.. the EU has always been a stepping stone for germany and france being able to step in the ring with the big boys..

At the end of the day its about taking the power from the people and no matter how many promises or other political bs they try to cover it up with it is what it is.

even in the papers where have mr sarkozy telling the czech presidant to accept lisbon or face the consequences....

if lisbon is passed and 2/3 years doen the line when people realise the truth where will all the yes voters be then??

twinytwo

reasons to vote no to lisbon...

halves irelands voting while doubling that of germany

opens a door to interference in tax and other key economic interests

diminishes our power to nominate our european commissioner

enshrines eu as superior to irish law

creates and unelected president and a foreign minister of europe

hands over power in 60 areas of policy to brussles

gives exclusive competence to brussels over international trade and foreign direct investment

That_Guy

I was looking at a Fianna Fail poster yesterday and it had a picture of a builders hat and a teachers type hat (forget the name of them) and it said "Vote yes for jobs".
So does that mean that there will only be jobs for teachers and builders or is everyone included?
It's good advertising from Fianna Fail to try and get the two most vunerable working sectors to side with the yes vote.

But will there actually be jobs available right away or 10 years down the line? What's the time frame on these alleged jobs that the Lisbon treaty will provide?

Also with regards to another "Yes" poster, why are scare tactics involved?
"Vote yes for Europe".
By voting no does that mean that Ireland are going to be kicked out of the EU by not voting yes again?

It's all very confusing from both sides of the argument.
The yes side are promising us jobs and recovery while the no side are saying that we'll all be working for €1.84 an hour and that there'll be more money spent on military funding etc.

I've read the Lisbon Treaty and would love to know where each side are getting their facts from.
I didn't understand the Lisbon treaty the first time and don't understand it this time.

A local TD in my area said to "vote yes for my future". When I asked what exactly my future is she then proceeded to walk off and canvas elsewhere.

Nobody has given me a straight answer and so based on what the EU has done for Ireland in the past I'm voting yes. And I'm not voting yes because we're promised more jobs etc. I'm voting for the funding that the EU has given this country and long may it continue.

JSK 252

The EU has had a huge impact on ireland's economic prosperity and we would not be here today in this information age if it wasnt for the EU.

A no vote is basically telling the EU to **** off in a subtle way.

That is why I am voting yes and we do keep our comissioner.

Jk_Eire

As I posted in another thread.

Some of my reasons for voting Yes.

I want to be a member of a strong, functional family. Ireland belongs in Europe, Europe is Ireland's family. The Lisbon Treaty makes Europe stronger. When the family is strong, every member is stronger.

I want the economy to recover quickly. Quick decisions are essential for a quick recovery. The Lisbon Treaty makes it possible for the European Union to take decisions faster than ever before.

I want immigration to be controlled in a fair manner. The Lisbon Treaty makes it easier for EU countries to work together to stop illegal immigration and human trafficking.

I like clarity. The Lisbon Treaty brings together in one document and clearly spells out the Union's objectives and competences – what the EU wants to do and what it can do.

I want energy used responsibly and efficiently. Security of energy supply, energy efficiency and the setting up of Trans-European Energy Networks are all key priorities in the Lisbon Treaty.

I want Europe to have a strong voice in the world. This voice will come from the new President of the Council and the new High Representative for Foreign Affairs. Without the Lisbon Treaty, these positions will not be set up and the US, Russia and China will increasingly dictate terms on the world scene.

I believe compromise is better than confrontation – provided Ireland's vital interests are protected. The balance that the Lisbon Treaty establishes between decisions taken on a majority vote and decisions that require unanimity means that all countries, large and small, are encouraged to talk to others and form alliances to ensure their views are carried. But, on the really crucial issues, like defence and taxation all countries retain the power of veto.

I believe in social fairness and workers' rights. The Lisbon Treaty affirms the EU's commitment to jobs, social protection, the fight against social exclusion and adequate provision in the fields of education and health.

Lastly, to pass comment on the NO campaigners and ardent eurosceptics.
I do not understand their worst case scenario view of the EU. They consistently and grossly misquote the treaty and take hugely a "what if" approach to everything. They envisage the treaty in such a way that it is a destructive document, and interpret everything with near doomsday scenario outcomes.

What bad has ever come from the EU? Why the massive mistrust? Why the conspiracy theorist outlook?

These are questions I often find that the no campaigners fail to answer.

Someguy2009

The Irish people are very influential.

The Dutch and the French had a public poll to ask the average Joe what he thought of it. They voted against. Next the governments changed the wording and next didn't ask the people what they wanted anymore: the 'bill' was passed in these two countries. In many other countries, the people weren't even asked what they thought of it.

So, the Dutch and the French tried to block it but they were silenced. People in other countries weren't even asked.

Ireland, what say you?

Sully

twinytwo wrote: »

halves irelands voting while doubling that of germany

You would be forgetting the whole purpose of the Qualified Majority Voting (QMV), a system the EU already has but is now being extended. Ill just use the Referendum Comission way of explaining it to save time.

Each member states vote is given a weight. This is not directly proportionate to the population. The weighting arrangements give smaller countries a greater share than their populations would warrant if a directly proportional arrangement existed. If the Treaty is ratified, from 2014, a qualified majority will require that decisions must meet two conditions:

a) 55% of the Member States must agree: (for example, while there are 27 Member States, 15 Member States must agree);
b) those Member States supporting the decision must represent 65% of the EU population.

A decession can be opposed by requiring 4 member states to be opposed. This ensures that decisions cannot be blocked by just 3 of the larger Member States acting together - which is being used as a scare tactic by the No side.

If there are fewer than 4 Member States opposed to a decision then the qualified majority will be deemed to have been reached even if the population criterion is not met. The harm in that?

opens a door to interference in tax and other key economic interests

What type of "interference tax and other key economic interests"? Rather vague - at least clarify for the shock/horror factor. The Lisbon Treaty has no effect on our tax veto.

diminishes our power to nominate our european commissioner

Incorrect. Even Libertas leader has said this on his Lisbon debate on Prime Time.

enshrines eu as superior to irish law

What exactly are we refering to here?

creates and unelected president and a foreign minister of europe

How do you propose we elect a president across all member states? Imagine how messy that would be - "Vote for Bertie Ahern" posters in Germany?! Yeah, I think the system suggested will do fine.

hands over power in 60 areas of policy to brussles

Vague again I see. What and where?

gives exclusive competence to brussels over international trade and foreign direct investment

Is this Arts.206-7 TFEU you are on about? If so, you have showed your lack of understanding of this area.

sinnerboy

I voted yes last time... and lost . End of story as far as I am concerned . The reasons why I voted yes don't matter now - but here they are anyhow.

I believed we lived in a democracy . I am humiliated for us all here that we are being asked to vote again . I beleived that the EU was essentialy benign if imperfect , at it's heart "a good thing" and in all honesty having carefully considered the issues as best I could came down on the yes side based on a gut feeling.

But we voted no .

We are being asked again .

That is outrageous . The political classes are expressing contempt for us both at national and at EU level in many ways - but no more as nakedly as in the case of Lisbon 2 . ( Same as Lisbon 1 )

They did not hear us the last time . They will this time I hope . Vote No .

Mikefitzs

I will vote NO simply because I want my children and future generations to have a say in how The Republic of Irelands future should be. I am not prepared to hand over responsibility to either our shambolic government or some big European government to take complete control over all the major decisions that will affect future generations of both The Republic of Ireland and Europe.

Both sides in the campaign have very good reasons for their choice of vote, CHOICE being the key word, a yes vote will take away that CHOICE from all future generations and that just isn't acceptable.

Europe - Please take away farm grants and let the farmers get back to work. We are in a free trade economy but cannot produce food to trade because you pay us not to produce.

Cowen and Co. - Get off your thumb and get the farmers markets for their produce. Stop praying that some big US corporation will come here with 500,000 jobs. We have the way to create jobs at home if you allow us to do what we do best- Farming - exporting the highest quality food in the world. We are importing milk into Ireland that costs nearly the same to produce in Northern Ireland; it costs the same because they don't have the grants and subsidies we get from Europe.
Then go get our waters back from the Spanish and all those who have fished us dry of our fish stocks. We should be supplying continental Europe with the fish caught in Irish waters, not looking out to see from our harbour walls with our fishing fleet docked inside the harbour.

Be it Yes or NO please vote and show Europe that The Republic of Ireland has a very loud voice.

Kidchameleon

twinytwo wrote: »

reasons to vote no to lisbon...

halves irelands voting while doubling that of germany

opens a door to interference in tax and other key economic interests

diminishes our power to nominate our european commissioner

enshrines eu as superior to irish law

creates and unelected president and a foreign minister of europe

hands over power in 60 areas of policy to brussles

gives exclusive competence to brussels over international trade and foreign direct investment

Hi,

I just cant get me head around the question, why is ff/fg/lab ect pushing so hard for yes if all the above is true?

Mark200

twinytwo wrote: »

reasons to vote no to lisbon...

halves irelands voting while doubling that of germany

opens a door to interference in tax and other key economic interests

diminishes our power to nominate our european commissioner

enshrines eu as superior to irish law

creates and unelected president and a foreign minister of europe

hands over power in 60 areas of policy to brussles

gives exclusive competence to brussels over international trade and foreign direct investment

FFS...

EU LAW IS ALREADY SUPERIOR

And "our" European Commissioner does not, and never has, represented Ireland in any way in the EU. He/she would just look after a certain policy area in the EU.

Mikefitzs

I will vote NO simply because I want my children and future generations to have a say in how The Republic of Irelands future should be. I am not prepared to hand over responsibility to either our shambolic government or some big European government to take complete control over all the major decisions that will affect future generations of both The Republic of Ireland and Europe.

Both sides in the campaign have very good reasons for their choice of vote, CHOICE being the key word, a yes vote will take away that CHOICE from all future generations and that just isn't acceptable.

Europe - Please take away farm grants and let the farmers get back to work. We are in a free trade economy but cannot produce food to trade because you pay us not to produce.

Cowen and Co. - Get off your thumb and get the farmers markets for their produce. Stop praying that some big US corporation will come here with 500,000 jobs. We have the way to create jobs at home if you allow us to do what we do best- Farming - exporting the highest quality food in the world. We are importing milk into Ireland that costs nearly the same to produce in Northern Ireland; it costs the same because they don't have the grants and subsidies we get from Europe.
Then go get our waters back from the Spanish and all those who have fished us dry of our fish stocks. We should be supplying continental Europe with the fish caught in Irish waters, not looking out to see from our harbour walls with our fishing fleet docked inside the harbour.

Be it Yes or NO please vote and show Europe that The Republic of Ireland has a very loud voice.

MrMatisse

The treaty is an attempt to undermine the democratic decision of the people of France and the Netherlands.

See my Signature for further details.

johnp

Belfast wrote: »

* Why should I vote yes?
if you want move decisions made in centrally in europe rather that at state level.
if you have read the treaty and understood it and are happy with it
if you are trust the Dail to make future changes to the Lisbon treaty without referendum
if you want the EU to be more involved it the affairs of other countries, sending armies to do peace keeping or get rid of nasty dictators
if you believe that the assures give after last vote will have legal effect
if you want the EU to have more control of crime fighting
if you are happy with have the same treaty being voted on so soon after it was rejected by the Irish people, also the French people and the Danes



* Why should I vote no?
if you think too much power is being move to away form Ireland.
if you think the treaty is too long and complex
if you have read or not fully understood the treaty.
if you are do not trust the Dail to make future changes to the Lisbon treaty without referendum
if you are unhappy at the Lisbon treaty was not read by most of the Dail before or after they voted to purt it to the people.
if you do not want the EU interfering in the affairs of other countries
if you do not believe that the assures give after last vote will have legal effect
if you want you do not want the EU to be involved in crime fighting.
if you are not happy with have the same treaty being voted on so soon after it was rejected by the Irish people, also the French people and the Danes

* If the Lisbon Treaty is voted in, what happens?
more power will move to away for Ireland and more of our law will be made in Brussels.
more pressure on Ireland to adopt the Big government tax and spend policies of the rest of Europe.
Europe may become more like American trying to spread democracy around the would whether other countries want it or not
longer term it is hard to say, depends on what future changes will be and to the treaty and what view the courts take over this long and complex document

* If the Lisbon treaty is not voted in, what happens?
if No vote the treaty cannot go ahead.
they will probably bring it in bit by bit slowly over may years.
some parts of the treaty may not be possible to bringing in this way.
if the treaty was to go ahead with a no vote the other member have to leave the EU and set up a new version without Ireland.
Ireland would probably then have a free trade agreement with the new setup.
I do not think this will happen
that all depends on haw baldly the rest of the EU wants this treaty.

Why should that make me vote no? That means I'm effecting the vote based on not knowing what I'm voting on.
As far as I'm concerned, abstain or spoil if you haven't read it or don't understand it.

speaktofrank

twinytwo wrote: »

reasons to vote no to lisbon...

halves irelands voting while doubling that of germany

opens a door to interference in tax and other key economic interests

diminishes our power to nominate our european commissioner

enshrines eu as superior to irish law

creates and unelected president and a foreign minister of europe

hands over power in 60 areas of policy to brussles

gives exclusive competence to brussels over international trade and foreign direct investment

Can we see sources for some of these bogus statements please?

Fey!

Can anyone tell me exacty what the differences are between Lisbon 1 and Lisbon 2?

jimmyger

The fact that we already voted no and expressed our wishes regarding Lisbon seems not to matter.

The fact that all big parties are united in wanting a yes vote is very frightening. France and Germany are really chomping at the bit for this one. Be careful.:eek:

twinytwo

JSK 252 wrote: »

The EU has had a huge impact on ireland's economic prosperity and we would not be here today in this information age if it wasnt for the EU.

A no vote is basically telling the EU to **** off in a subtle way.

That is why I am voting yes and we do keep our comissioner.

it wont be added in till 2012 and.. even by some grace of god they dont find of not letting us keep our comissioner the eu gets to decide who our comissioner is.. not the people.. so the will naturally sleect someone who will toe the line

seanfromshankil

If you vote no because:
Children/grandchildrens futures etc.
You don't understand.
You don't like the current govt. of Ireland
You voted no last time
You believe anything said by the no campaign.

You should do us all a favor and not vote, or alternatively ask a sensible seventeen (17) year old such as myself or anyone around my age who despite being anywhere from 1 to 60 years younger than you understands the treaty what they think and then go vote yes.

I do not have the right to vote, despite the fact that I work as hard as and pay taxes to as much as anyone else to a government I didn't and don't have the right to any say in. I have read and understand the treaty. I actually know what I'm talking about. So, what's the opinion on that?
Someone who has no say and yet knows more than approx. 45% of the country about this!?

That's my say...

francosp

Come on people do you want us to be left out in the cold ( WHICH WILL HAPPEN ON A NO VOTE ) against joining the "community" esp. in our current circumstances...... ???

This crap of 1.89Eur as a minimum wage is PURE LIES, no way is that gonna happen.

Vote YES, for a stronger Europe and Stronger Eire...

I could elaborate, but I'm too tired...

An Fear Aniar

12 REASONS TO DO THE RIGHT THING FOR EUROPE'S CITIZENS AND VOTE NO

1. I have always regarded EU funding into Ireland as reparations from the European colonial powers for centuries of misrule, in the context of a post war continental settlement. After Europe's politicians had finished reducing the continent to rubble, they received billions in aid from the US in the Marshall Plan - we don't see them perpetually doffing the cap to the US. In addressing past injustices, financial aid to Ireland is part of the price Europe must pay for a peaceful continent. As a small independent nation, we don't owe a penny to anyone. For further information, read about King Leopold II of the Belgians as a starting point.

2. Don't forget the fish! Irish territorial waters have contributed anything from 29 billion to 200 billion euros in piscine wealth to the EU, depending on how the value is measured.

3. If we are voting against our consciences out of fear of displeasing the governments of Europe (note I didn't mention the people) then we deserve to be enslaved. Only a slave would sell his vote for money.

4. It's not just Irish farmers who have benefitted from CAP. Farmers all across Europe have. French and Dutch farmers had no reservations in rejecting these same proposals in their referendums in 2005. Their governments don't have the courage to ask them for their approval of Lisbon because they know that the electorate is a "threat" - as Valery Giscard d'Estaing put it.

5. The Lisbon Treaty is a resurrected version of the European Constitution which was already rejected by French and Dutch voters. Don't take my word for it, take a look at what some others have said:


"Virtual incomprehensibility has thus replaced simplicity as the key approach to EU reform. As for the changes now proposed to be made to the constitutional treaty, most are presentational changes that have no practical effect. They have simply been designed to enable certain heads of government to sell to their people the idea of ratification by parliamentary action rather than by referendum."
Dr Garret FitzGerald, Irish Times, 30 June 2007


"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly ... All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."
V.Giscard D'Estaing, Head of the Convention that drafted the EU Constitution, Le Monde, 14 June 2007.


"The aim of the Constitutional Treaty was to be more readable; the aim of this treaty is to be unreadable ... The Constitution aimed to be clear, whereas this treaty had to be unclear. It is a success."
Karel de Gucht, Belgian Foreign Minister, FlandreInfo, 23 June 2007


"France was just ahead of all the other countries in voting No. It would happen in all Member States if they have a referendum. There is a cleavage between people and governments... There will be no Treaty if we had a referendum in France."
French President Nicolas Sarkozy 14 November 2007

"Otherwise, the proposals in the original constitutional treaty are practically unchanged. They have simply been dispersed through old treaties in the form of amendments. Why this subtle change? Above all, to head off any threat of referenda by avoiding any form of constitutional vocabulary."
V.Giscard D'Estaing, Head of the Convention that drafted the EU Constitution.

6. The Lisbon Treaty creates an EU state with a President and a Foreign Minister (High Representative). No citizen in any EU country will be able to vote for these people or vote them out of office. We are being told the President will have merely an administrative role but he will in fact be the chief spokesman for Europe on the world stage, pretending to speak for me and you, but without any mandate to do so. It's possible Tony Blair may be your first President as a citizen of the EU state.

7. Lisbon continues the EU tradition of taking more and more powers without giving back a commensurate level of democratic accountability. It remains that the only place where EU laws will be initiated is in the Commission - none of whom are ever elected. The European Parliament, the people we vote for, has no right to initiate new laws. The Lisbon Treaty merely extends "codecision" in some areas. Meanwhile the Lisbon Treaty would give the EU competence in dozens of new areas, removes Ireland's veto in several areas, and reduces Ireland's voting weight. It will strengthen the hand of the EU to make Laws on the Irish People in over 30 new policy areas. These will include Crime, Justice, Tourism, Immigration, Culture, Transport, Sport, Energy & Public Health.

8. The Treaty (Article 28) calls for a military build up in Europe: "Member States shall undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities" under the direction of the European Defence Agency (EDA).

One of the functions of the EDA will be:

(d) support defence technology research, and coordinate and plan joint research activities and the study of technical solutions meeting future operational needs

For the first time ever, Ireland will be assenting to and assisting in the creation of new weapons of mass destruction which will inevitably end up killing poor families in the third world for the profit of the European arms industry.

9. Article 28 B allows for Europe's military to be used outside of the EU as part of the "war on terror":

"All these tasks may contribute to the fight against terrorism, including by
supporting third countries in combating terrorism in their territories."

Any military adventure can be dressed up as part of the war on terror, as we have seen in the case of Iraq. There is no reference to seeking UN approval for any of these actions. European countries already have a NATO and UN framework for their military strategies, why do they need to add this to the Treaty? Ireland cannot claim to be neutral if we sign up to Lisbon, whatever our "assurances" might say.

10. There is nothing in the Treaty (e.g. climate change, negotiating on energy) that cannot already be done by EU states acting together under existing Treaties. It is simply a power grab by Brussels aided by career politicians in all the member states - there is nothing of benefit to the ordinary man in the street and lots to lose in terms of democratic accountability.

11. Voting Yes or No will have no effect on the economy whatsover. We are in a global recession sparked by the collapse of Lehman Brothers bank in New York. Ireland will recover when the global economy recovers. If the Lisbon Treaty were so vital to our economy, why did the government not mention any of this at the time of the first referendum?

12. The EU does not respect our sovereignty. When voters in France and the Netherlands voted NO to these same proposals they were not ordered back to the polling booth to vote again. On 20th February 2008, MEPs in the European Parliament voted against Amendment No 32 which was "The European Parliament undertakes to respect the outcome of the referendum in Ireland" by a majority of 499 to 129. One of the MEPs who voted against was Prionsias de Rossa.

.

RCIRL

Its clear to see the majority of people are going to vote no. I am confidant of a no vote again, the only thing I am worried about now is rigging during the count. Our Government will stop at nothing to secure a yes.

If you don't believe me watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouUN2ylqGNI

This is a perfect example of how the Garda deal with vote rigging during a recent election, this is one of the most important referendums God only knows what could happen.

Also one ballot box seemed to "appear" out of nowhere during the last referendum on this treaty, it happened in North Co Dublin.

Observe as much as you can, take down serial numbers of all ballot boxes and photograph them too if you can, having evidence of the actual ballot boxes may help a case, should one arise.

What happened to Jim Corr's post??

No to Lisbon.

pisslips

seanfromshankil wrote: »

If you vote no because:
Children/grandchildrens futures etc.
You don't understand.
You don't like the current govt. of Ireland
You voted no last time
You believe anything said by the no campaign.

You should do us all a favor and not vote, or alternatively ask a sensible seventeen (17) year old such as myself or anyone around my age who despite being anywhere from 1 to 60 years younger than you understands the treaty what they think and then go vote yes.

I do not have the right to vote, despite the fact that I work as hard as and pay taxes to as much as anyone else to a government I didn't and don't have the right to any say in. I have read and understand the treaty. I actually know what I'm talking about. So, what's the opinion on that?
Someone who has no say and yet knows more than approx. 45% of the country about this!?

That's my say...

That's exactly why you should vote No again on the same text, the same treaty. Whether you have changed your mind or not, you should still vote No again because this referendum should not be recognised, it should not be valid, it's not democratic.

The Lisbon treaty was voted on already, it's over.....now we're voting on whether we want to live in a democracy or not?

By the way, I voted YES the last time.

nehemiah

Prionsias de Rossa has seemed to have turned around a bit on this issue, from the video on his website.

http://www.derossa.com/

I agree with anybody who has said that voting 'no' for the sake of punishing the government is ridiculous. If a 'no' vote did result in a general election, whoever wins that election will have also being campaigning for Lisbon (unless Sinn Fein win:eek:)

Similarly, the minimum wage sign has deservedly been ridiculed. If anyone on here wants to suggest how the minimum wage can be reduced please post links with evidence of this. Otherwise I will continue under the presumption/illusion that it is a lie!

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Hi,

I just cant get me head around the question, why is ff/fg/lab ect pushing so hard for yes if all the above is true?

I would like an answer to his question too? In general the opposition parties seem to go against anything proposed by the government (not just Ireland and not just this government) so why are they all pushing the same way on this? Are all of our democratically elected representatives trying to pull the wool over our eyes?!

...The sly dogs!!

Mark200

An Fear Aniar:

I hope you didn't spend too long typing out all that BS.

1. If that's how you saw funding from the EU, then you saw it wrong. We did not 'deserve' it. It was given to us based on the agreement that we'd pay a lot of it back in the future when our economy has improved. Now, because of that funding, it has improved.

2. That's because all EU countries share their resources. That's the point.

3. We aren't

4 & 5. Irish farmers have benefit fare more significantly than most other countries from CAP. As well as that, this is not the EU constitution. The constitution raised to EU to state status. Lisbon does not do that, based on various supreme court rulings from many EU countries.

6. Where have you been? The EU already has an unelected president. Did you vote for Nicolas Sarkozy?? Because I certainly didn't. At the moment the EU presidency is rotated between countries and often means that each president tries to push their own country's agenda. This will end when the presidency is no longer rotated between countries. The High Representative already exists, and this is the position Declan Ganley boasts as the "26 + 1", where 26 countries get a commissioner and Ireland gets the High Representative position. This will not work when another countries joins the EU. Not only that, but anything that this 'foreign minister' speaks out on must be unanimously agreed on my all members of the council. This means Ireland has a veto on any topic discussed.

7. The elected EU parliament are the only ones that can pass laws though. As well as that, Lisbon also makes the EU more democratic by ensuring that the EU council have to meet in public, rather than private where they meet now.

8 & 9. Ireland can decide on what role (if any) it plays in military advancement. We have had a legally binding guarantee that this treaty will not effect our neutrality. Not only that, but in point 8. you said this treaty will mean we kill African babies, and in point 9 you said we might have to defend Africans! But we can claim to be neutral as there is nothing that says Ireland must take part in anything to do with the military. Including peace missions which it is intended for.

10. As I said already, it improves democratic accountability by ensuring that the council meets in public.

11. The importance of this on our economy is probably overstated by the yes side, but to say it will have no effect is ridiculous. We depend on getting money from the ECB to survive in tough times like this. We were one of the worst hit in the EU. You know France and Germany are already out of the recession don't you? It's humans who work in the ECB. And humans who decide whether we get money. And they might not be as motivated to help us if we are the only country to reject this treaty.

12. Will you cop on. It's not the same as the constitution, the constitution raised the EU to state level and several Supreme Court rulings from various EU countries judges that the Lisbon Treaty does not do that.

twinytwo

francosp wrote: »

Come on people do you want us to be left out in the cold ( WHICH WILL HAPPEN ON A NO VOTE ) against joining the "community" esp. in our current circumstances...... ???

This crap of 1.89Eur as a minimum wage is PURE LIES, no way is that gonna happen.

Vote YES, for a stronger Europe and Stronger Eire...

I could elaborate, but I'm too tired...

where did you pull that from.. this whole we will be left behind is the biggest pile of bs ever..l.if the lisbon treaty is defeated then the nice treaty is still in effect...

Also the governments whole yes campaign is based on "voting yes will increase jobs sort out the economy etc etc while voting no will destroy the economy and jobs will be lost....

if lisbon is passed or not the finanical trouble that this country is in will not be fixed we will still lose more jobs as the country will still be arse up

RepublicanEagle

I am a student in UCC,doing a BA European Development Studies II,and as a scholar in European economics and law,and from reading the treaty,I am voting No to Lisbon,I support what the EU has done for us,but they have earned millions from our fishing grounds,and placed quotas on agricultural goods that favor the big farmers all over France and Germany,the countruies responsible fro drafting up the CAP and CFP.Coincidence,I think not.However if the EU was to put people before profit in their policies and Lisbon,I would vote yes.

But this is not the case,it is beaucracy and profit before the people.
The Yes campaign are advocating that the No side,is anti European.That is pure and utter tripe.I hate this governent in Ireland and their policies.Does that make me anti-Irish?I think not.The Yes people who are voting,are under the delusion that it will create jobs and bring economic recovery?Where in the Treaty does it state that?And where has the EU been within the last 12 months,where jobs are being lost left right and centre,along with the rising dole queues.Nowhere.
Remember what happened to Dell in Limerick who relocated to Poland after the Polish offered them hundreds of thousands of euro?The EU did nothing about it,nothing,because Poland is actually becoming very powerful industrially and militarily.

The reality is,the Lisbon treaty,will favor the powerful states,not the small states such as Ireland.I guarantee that any citizen with any shred of civic responsibilty and intelligence,will know that this will repeat itself,if this referendum is passed.Before you vote read this treaty,most of have not,you follow the government like cattle to the slaughter,even after what they have done to us.Shame on all of you.

machintoshlover

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

I am a student in UCC,doing a BA European Development Studies II,and as a scholar in European economics and law,and from reading the treaty,I am voting No to Lisbon,I support what the EU has done for us,but they have earned millions from our fishing grounds,and placed quotas on agricultural goods that favor the big farmers all over France and Germany,the countruies responsible fro drafting up the CAP and CFP.Coincidence,I think not.However if the EU was to put people before profit in their policies and Lisbon,I would vote yes.

But this is not the case,it is beaucracy and profit before the people.
The Yes campaign are advocating that the No side,is anti European.That is pure and utter tripe.I hate this governent in Ireland and their policies.Does that make me anti-Irish?I think not.The Yes people who are voting,are under the delusion that it will create jobs and bring economic recovery?Where in the Treaty does it state that?And where has the EU been within the last 12 months,where jobs are being lost left right and centre,along with the rising dole queues.Nowhere.
Remember what happened to Dell in Limerick who relocated to Poland after the Polish offered them hundreds of thousands of euro?The EU did nothing about it,nothing,because Poland is actually becoming very powerful industrially and militarily.

The reality is,the Lisbon treaty,will favor the powerful states,not the small states such as Ireland.I guarantee that any citizen with any shred of civic responsibilty and intelligence,will know that this will repeat itself,if this referendum is passed.Before you vote read this treaty,most of have not,you follow the government like cattle to the slaughter,even after what they have done to us.Shame on all of you.

I find your post rather insulting and I am a person who is still considering what position he is going to take.

For a scholar in European economics and law your points are 1.) vague 2.) are really just soundbites and 3.) insulting to the general public 4.) in some cases rather stupid.

Why should the EU step in for the Dell relocation to Poland? they found a lower cost base and moved - who are the EU to tell Dell where to set up?

I don't think people who vote 'yes' are under any illusions that this will lead to job prosperity and economic recovery - most people I know are voting yes because they see the benefits of Ireland being involved in a more efficient and effectively run European Union which the Lisbon treaty allows.

Most people know the current government are incompetent - they are not just following what they say - give people some credit and allow them to make up their own minds instead of insulting our intelligence and shaming us.

I think overall the benefits to the EU overall are big, I don't think the direct benefits are big to Ireland however a more efficiently run EU will indirectly affect Ireland in a positive manner. There is also very little cost to ratifying this treaty to the Irish people despite what the 'NO' side are saying.

Mark200

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

I am a student in UCC,doing a BA European Development Studies II,and as a scholar in European economics and law,and from reading the treaty,I am voting No to Lisbon,I support what the EU has done for us,but they have earned millions from our fishing grounds,and placed quotas on agricultural goods that favor the big farmers all over France and Germany,the countruies responsible fro drafting up the CAP and CFP.Coincidence,I think not.However if the EU was to put people before profit in their policies and Lisbon,I would vote yes.

But this is not the case,it is beaucracy and profit before the people.
The Yes campaign are advocating that the No side,is anti European.That is pure and utter tripe.I hate this governent in Ireland and their policies.Does that make me anti-Irish?I think not.The Yes people who are voting,are under the delusion that it will create jobs and bring economic recovery?Where in the Treaty does it state that?And where has the EU been within the last 12 months,where jobs are being lost left right and centre,along with the rising dole queues.Nowhere.
Remember what happened to Dell in Limerick who relocated to Poland after the Polish offered them hundreds of thousands of euro?The EU did nothing about it,nothing,because Poland is actually becoming very powerful industrially and militarily.

The reality is,the Lisbon treaty,will favor the powerful states,not the small states such as Ireland.I guarantee that any citizen with any shred of civic responsibilty and intelligence,will know that this will repeat itself,if this referendum is passed.Before you vote read this treaty,most of have not,you follow the government like cattle to the slaughter,even after what they have done to us.Shame on all of you.

It's disappointing, and the epitome of this whole Lisbon debate, that you can type out a full post arguing against Lisbon and not even reference one article or sentence in the treaty.

Your opinion on past policies and your education history is not enough information to make a valid argument against the Lisbon Treaty. After reading the treaty, the reasons you outlined for voting no have nothing to do with the treaty. Namely CAP, and Dell's move to Poland.

nehemiah

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

The Yes people who are voting,are under the delusion that it will create jobs and bring economic recovery?Where in the Treaty does it state that?

Don't quote me on this but I believe it is in the same section of the Treaty as the provision that lowers the minimum wage to €1.84, forces us to take part in a European Army, and brings in abortion laws without our consent !

talisker

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

12 REASONS TO DO THE RIGHT THING FOR EUROPE'S CITIZENS AND VOTE NO



8. The Treaty (Article 28) calls for a military build up in Europe: "Member States shall undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities" under the direction of the European Defence Agency (EDA).

One of the functions of the EDA will be:

(d) support defence technology research, and coordinate and plan joint research activities and the study of technical solutions meeting future operational needs

For the first time ever, Ireland will be assenting to and assisting in the creation of new weapons of mass destruction which will inevitably end up killing poor families in the third world for the profit of the European arms industry.

.

you can't be totally oblivious to the numerous irish industries that already supply, manufacture, and profit!!! from the arms industry. we're not a virgin bride, and we did inhale. and thank god for the e.u. and e.c.b., without either we would still be making a living selling peat and growing shamrocks.

Noreen1

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

I am a student in UCC,doing a BA European Development Studies II,and as a scholar in European economics and law,and from reading the treaty,I am voting No to Lisbon,I support what the EU has done for us,but they have earned millions from our fishing grounds,and placed quotas on agricultural goods that favor the big farmers all over France and Germany,the countruies responsible fro drafting up the CAP and CFP.Coincidence,I think not.However if the EU was to put people before profit in their policies and Lisbon,I would vote yes.

But this is not the case,it is beaucracy and profit before the people.
The Yes campaign are advocating that the No side,is anti European.That is pure and utter tripe.I hate this governent in Ireland and their policies.Does that make me anti-Irish?I think not.The Yes people who are voting,are under the delusion that it will create jobs and bring economic recovery?Where in the Treaty does it state that?And where has the EU been within the last 12 months,where jobs are being lost left right and centre,along with the rising dole queues.Nowhere.
Remember what happened to Dell in Limerick who relocated to Poland after the Polish offered them hundreds of thousands of euro?The EU did nothing about it,nothing,because Poland is actually becoming very powerful industrially and militarily.

The reality is,the Lisbon treaty,will favor the powerful states,not the small states such as Ireland.I guarantee that any citizen with any shred of civic responsibilty and intelligence,will know that this will repeat itself,if this referendum is passed.Before you vote read this treaty,most of have not,you follow the government like cattle to the slaughter,even after what they have done to us.Shame on all of you.

I tend to broadly agree with what you have said.
It's a little late now, since the referendum is over, but I would be interested in your views on the ECJ, specifically the ways in which multinational corporations pay lobbyists to obtain changes to the legal system.... generally not in favour of the average worker, or small to medium business, methinks.
I voted "No", by the way.

Noreen