Preamble to the Irish Constitution

ironingbored

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,...


:eek:

Are we the only country in the world who actually alludes to a ghost in the preamble to its constitution?

Is it not time that this ridiculous piece of anachronistic text was forcibly removed from a document that should represent all its people?

And should we not go one further and remove any reference to the great Scarlet Pimpernel in the sky from articles 6 and 44 as well as oaths to be taken by the President, Judges and member of the Council of State?

Number of times God is mentioned in the Irish Constitution? 7
Number of times God is mentioned in the US Constitution? 0

GLaDOS

ironingbored wrote: »

Are we the only country in the world who actually alludes to a ghost in the preamble to its constitution?

3 words, The Middle East

jmccoy

ironingbored wrote: »

Number of times God is mentioned in the Irish Constitution? 7
Number of times God is mentioned in the US Constitution? 0

The Americans do it better than that, they get very intimate with all, they put "In God We Trust" in everyones pocket a la the Dollar.

Zillah

Don't call attention to it! You'll embarrass me in front of the rest of Europe!


You're right of course, our constitution is outdated and embarrassing, I try not to think about it.

Mena

When I moved here 10 years ago and read the constitution for the first time I had to make sure I'd not taken a wrong turn and immigrated to the Vatican

Realistically though, does anyone actually think it would ever get changed? I certainly don't.

MatthewVII

People will just say "sure it's not doing anyone any harm, get over yourself" and think that atheists are rabid, mouth-foaming fundamentalists who demand everyone bow to their petty demands. Like with the Angelus. Or not being able to buy alcohol on Good Friday. We're just expected to play along nicely and not make a fuss.

It's pretty demeaning alright.

Dades

We've all seen the difficulties getting anything with a hint of controversy passed by referendum (Late Late Show audience, anyone?), so I'm with Zillah on this.

Zillah wrote: »

I try not to think about it.

robindch

MatthewVII wrote: »

Or not being able to buy alcohol on Good Friday.

Or on Saturnalia/christmas day, when after two days in a confined space with one's relatives, and two days still to go, a small treble whiskey isn't so much a pleasure as a necessity...

Antbert

I was so incredulous at that (stupidly so really) that I looked it up. I'm sorry for not believing you.

Why am I even surprised?!

MatthewVII wrote: »

People will just say "sure it's not doing anyone any harm, get over yourself" and think that atheists are rabid, mouth-foaming fundamentalists who demand everyone bow to their petty demands. Like with the Angelus. Or not being able to buy alcohol on Good Friday. We're just expected to play along nicely and not make a fuss.

It's pretty demeaning alright.

Argh that is EXACTLY what people will say. Meanwhile, the English people laugh at us and steal our lunch money. Well they should. Not-as-bad-as-America doesn't really help.

Is it Good Friday you're not supposed to eat meat on? I got a burger in college last Good Friday (or Ash Wednesday maybe... Whichever day it is) and the people I had lunch with actually had the nerve to be shocked. Now, I wasn't even having lunch with 3 80 year old women. This was 3 22 year old students.

Anyway, I digress. The point is, that is utterly sickening. Should we really try not to think about it? I can see the logic, in that it's obviously nicer not to be permenantly riled up. But I still think that not thinking about it just gets us nowhere.

Dades

Antbert wrote: »

But I still think that not thinking about it just gets us nowhere.

Which is exactly where thinking about it gets us!

We'll be stone cold before the Irish vote religion out of their constitution.

Antbert

Dades wrote: »

Which is exactly where thinking about it gets us!

We'll be stone cold before the Irish vote religion out of their constitution.

Better late than never.

Although... I'm not sure that's true. I think there's been some pretty dramatic changes in the last few years. I think the atheists are certainly making themselves better known. Richard Dawkins appearing on RTE (a few times), religion debates in Trinity, the Irish Atheist Society... I'm not sure a change is really that far off.

aidan24326

Antbert wrote: »

Better late than never.

Although... I'm not sure that's true. I think there's been some pretty dramatic changes in the last few years. I think the atheists are certainly making themselves better known. Richard Dawkins appearing on RTE (a few times), religion debates in Trinity, the Irish Atheist Society... I'm not sure a change is really that far off.

These are small steps in the right direction but atheists in this country are still a long way from being anything other than a minority group. (people who are openly atheist at least)

A read through the Irish Constitution actually gives you a good idea of who was sitting round the table when it was drawn up, and it's pretty obvious the vested interests that were at work.

There is an article protecting church property and assets from any state interference (the government actually used this as an excuse when people suggested the church be forced to sell properties to cover their obligations re: the abuse scandal compensation). By contrast, in Canada the Christian Brothers were forced to sell up just about everything they owned to cover the huge compensation bill, it as good as finished them in that country.

There's also an article declaring that a judge's pay can never be reduced*, hence the fact the judges were exempt from the 10% public pay cuts (at last count I think a grand total of 3 had voluntarily taken a cut)

So we see where the seeds of cronyism and vested interests were sown in this country, and the cosy relationship between church and government, it's right there in our constitution.

*I know it's slightly off-topic, but when you think about it that's a rather bizarre thing to have enshrined in the constitution.

MatthewVII

While we're at it, I also want to rant about that Jesus statue at the top of O'Connell street. One, for it's religious connotations. Two, because it's really trite and ugly. It looks like something from a dingy room in my grandmother's old house, not something that should be on public display.

Antbert

MatthewVII wrote: »

While we're at it, I also want to rant about that Jesus statue at the top of O'Connell street. One, for it's religious connotations. Two, because it's really trite and ugly. It looks like something from a dingy room in my grandmother's old house, not something that should be on public display.

Where?! I don't remember any Jesus statue at the top of O'Connell Street...

That said I wouldn't particularly object. As long as no one else would object to a lovely FSM statue being built right beside it.

MatthewVII

Antbert wrote: »

Where?! I don't remember any Jesus statue at the top of O'Connell Street...

That said I wouldn't particularly object. As long as no one else would object to a lovely FSM statue being built right beside it.

It's just past the spire on the central pavement near the turn for cathal brugha st afaik.

It's hideous, physically and emotionally

pts

Presumably we're talking about this beauty:


Nabbed from: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055233312

Antbert

pts wrote: »

*Snip* Ugly Jesus picture

Holy cripes on toast! How the flying fork have I missed that?!

We need a Flying Spagetti Monster up there post haste.

Dades

Is statue Jesus standing on an EU beachball?

Jesus says YES to Lisbon!

Antbert

Dades wrote: »

Is statue Jesus standing on an EU beachball?

Jesus says YES to Lisbon!

This should be in more campaigns.

Húrin

ironingbored wrote: »

Are we the only country in the world who actually alludes to a ghost in the preamble to its constitution?

Is it not time that this ridiculous piece of anachronistic text was forcibly removed from a document that should represent all its people?

sure it's not doing anyone any harm, get over yourself

Dades wrote: »

We'll be stone cold before the Irish vote religion out of their constitution.

didn't they vote the RCC out all the way back in 1973?

mikemac

Antbert wrote: »

Is it Good Friday you're not supposed to eat meat on?

Not just Good Friday, that's every Friday!
Did you not get fish every Friday in your house? :eek:

Thought that was common knowledge, for sure I never got meat on a Friday as a young lad. I assumed most people had the same.

Here's a quick link from a google search

Know your Canon laws!

Most Catholics think that Vatican II did away with the requirement of not eating meat on any Friday of the year. Most think it is now just Ash Wednesday and the Fridays of Lent that we cannot eat meat.

This is what the new Code of Canon Law brought out in 1983 says about the matter:

Canon 1251
Abstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference, is to be observed on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

As for not being able to buy alcohol on Good Friday?
Seriously get over it. It's only two days a year

CDfm

The Indian Constitution was based on the Irish even though its called secularist some say its indifferent to religion or pseudo-secular.

When the Irish Constitution was drafted there were few coinstitutional democracies on which to model a constitution.

India is hardly a model of religious harmony.

Antbert

mikemac wrote: »

Not just Good Friday, that's every Friday!
Did you not get fish every Friday in your house? :eek:

Thought that was common knowledge, for sure I never got meat on a Friday as a young lad. I assumed most people had the same.

Here's a quick link from a google search

Know your Canon laws!


As for not being able to buy alcohol on Good Friday?
Seriously get over it. It's only two days a year

Sorry Mr Catholic Upbringing Sir.

I don't buy alcohol all that often anyway, but prohibiting buying anything specifically on one day a year for a religious reason as a state law is terrible.

Flamed Diving

CDfm wrote: »

When the Irish Constitution was drafted there were few coinstitutional democracies on which to model a constitution.

Ahem:



Sorry, but your excuse is insufficient. The Irish Constitution of 1937 was a deliberate act of giving the Roman Catholic church a special seat at the table. I wish you would stop pretending to be ignorant of these facts. It's getting tiresome.

Zillah

Húrin wrote: »

sure it's not doing anyone any harm, get over yourself

First the angelus, now this. You really don't get church-state separation do you?

Also, that is an unbelievably hideous statue and I have no idea how I missed it entirely. The glass box around it just makes it all the more tacky.

A "Jesus Would Vote Yes" campaign would probably be depressingly successful.

ironingbored

Húrin wrote: »

sure it's not doing anyone any harm, get over yourself

Eh...it makes us an absolute laughing stock.

mikemac

ironingbored wrote: »

Eh...it makes us an absolute laughing stock.

To whom?

Which secular state do you reckon is reading a document from 1937 and laughing at us?

MatthewVII

Húrin wrote: »

sure it's not doing anyone any harm, get over yourself

You're right, as long as it has no material effect on anyone, it doesn't have any effect. I find it extremely unsettling and like it doesn't represent me like my constitution should. Why do any countries fight for independence? It's just the same no matter what government you're under, you live, work, pay taxes and then die. There is no more to any country than its physical attributes. Values, pride and respecting others etc have no place in deciding anything.

CDfm

mikemac wrote: »

To whom?

Which secular state do you reckon is reading a document from 1937 and laughing at us?

Only 22 of the world's countries were democracies in 1950. Of the worlds 192 recognised countries, 117 are electoral democracies.

rainbow kirby

pts wrote: »

Presumably we're talking about this beauty:


Nabbed from: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055233312

Noticed this the other day, there's now a plate on it dedicating it to the "Taxi Driver's".

whatdoicare

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Noticed this the other day, there's now a plate on it dedicating it to the "Taxi Driver's".

I remember there was a news section about this statue, there was uproar when they wanted to, I forget, either remove it or move it somewhere else..?? Apparantly the local taxi drivers like to think of it as minding them when at work or something like that - I think there was something about how they found it somewhere and restored it? and the Gov. finally decided to properly restore it. I have no problem with this as it brings others comfort and that's the important thing- I personally don't like it but I don't have a problem with others liking it.

On the other hand that religious nonsense has no place on our constitution!

The Prophet

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Noticed this the other day, there's now a plate on it dedicating it to the "Taxi Driver's".

Really? Are you sure it wasn't dedicated to the Moore Street greengrocer's?

Húrin

Zillah wrote: »

First the angelus, now this. You really don't get church-state separation do you?

The constitution has had Church-State Separation since 1973. What it needs now is God-State separation!

MatthewVII wrote: »

You're right, as long as it has no material effect on anyone, it doesn't have any effect. I find it extremely unsettling and like it doesn't represent me like my constitution should.

It's not your constitution nor mine. We both have only one quarter of one millionth of the rights over it. The constitution belongs to all the people of the country.

Why do any countries fight for independence? It's just the same no matter what government you're under, you live, work, pay taxes and then die. There is no more to any country than its physical attributes. Values, pride and respecting others etc have no place in deciding anything.

Off topic?

Zillah

Húrin wrote: »

The constitution has had Church-State Separation since 1973.

About time they started enforcing it then don't you think?

CDfm

Zillah wrote: »

About time they started enforcing it then don't you think?

Your definition is to remove God from everything and that doesn't cut it for believers who think you are mad.

Ireland has a type of a middle ground as it develops as a country and a society. Its an electoral democracy.

On ethics I am more at home discussing ethical questions on the Atheist Forum than the Christian Forum. Thats because it hits the issues rather than getting bogged down in interpretations of dogma. I don't think I am unique in being a believer with a secular outlook.

MatthewVII

Húrin wrote: »

It's not your constitution nor mine. We both have only one quarter of one millionth of the rights over it. The constitution belongs to all the people of the country.

You're right, it belongs to everyone and should show impartiality to the beliefs of everyone, not favour one group over another

Hurin wrote:

Off topic?

I'm just making the point that there's a lot more to the people of a country than just their physical contributions to life. Just because it doesn't make an appreciable physical impact on my life doesn't mean I shouldn't give a crap about what kind of message its sending