What's my next logical "gear upgrade"?

ZV Yoda

Hi folks,

I'm a home studio user with about 18 months “learn as you go” experience recording & mixing in PT LE. My gear is listed below. I’m trying to figure out the next logical upgrade to my set up. I play drums, guitar, one fingered keyboard & do questionable vocals.

First, the room… I track & mix in the same room – it’s is only 11ft x 11ft x 7ft high. I’ve treated the room as best I can – large corner bass traps, cloud above the kit & a wooden floor. So, the room sounds pretty OK (given the dimensions)… but I doubt if I can do a whole lot more to improve the acoustics.

I have a decent drum kit & guitars.

Micing the kit - through the 4 x 003r channels I have a matched pair of Rode NT5 overheads plus an SM57 (snare top) & AKG D112 (6 inches outside the kick). Through the ADA8000 I run 2 x SM57s (snare bottom, inside kick) plus 3 x cheap Thomann tom mics on the toms.

I’ve spent a lot of time playing around with mic placement & now have what I think is a good stereo image in the O/Hs. The closed mics do the job & I generally mix the O/Hs almost level with the closed mics. The kit is panned 65%:65%.

I DI my Highway 1 Tele directly into the 003r & then use the IK Amplitube guitar sims as required. I DI & mic my Taylor semi-acoustic with one of the NT5s – both via the 003r. For vox, I tend to use an SM57 via the 003r too. I don’t have/use a guitar amp.

Overall, I’m least happy with the drum sound. It just doesn’t have any real presence – although I can make some progress using processing & augmenting the snare & kick with samples.

So, my question is this – if you were in my position & wanted to make the next upgrade to your set up… what would you do? My current budget is about €500 (new or 2nd hand) but can be flexible depending on suggestions. I’m thinking either replacing the tom mics (with maybe 3 x SM57s or E904s) or possibly trading the ADA8000 for an M-Audio Profire 2626. I know drum/guitar/singing lessons would probably make more sense, but there ya go...

Thanks!

Hardware
20" iMac 2Ghz Intel C2D 4Gb, 003 rack, Behringer ADA 8000, Command 8, Axiom 61, 20" LG LCD screen
Maxtor OneTouch4 FW/750Gb/16Mb/7200rpm (audio/session drive)
Medion 750Gb SATA/USB2/16MB/7200RPM (back up drive)

Software
OSX 10.5.7, PTLE 8.0.1, Miroslav Philharmonic Classik, Massey Tape Sat, Massey DTM
SampleTank 2.5L, T-RackS 1.3, T-Racks DeLuxe 3.1, Classik Studio Reverb, Amplitube 2 Live & Duo, Ampeg SVX UNO

Seziertisch

Although I have no huge personal first hand experience of this, the general consensus with drum recording and particularly rock drum recordings is that good pres (API, Neve etc.) that you can drive a bit really bring something to the table. For €500 I don't know if there is a whole pile out there. You could also look into specific drum replacement software (like Drumagog) to augment your recordings.

In terms of electric guitar, a tube amp of some sort (doesn't have to be particularly big) with a good quality 12" speaker would be worth a look. I have messed around with quite a few of the amp sims and a 57 infront of a reasonable amp generally produces more realistic sounding results.

In terms of vocals, there is probably a mic out there that will work better than a 57 on your voice. Whether it is 500 EUR or less is another question. You might get lucky and find that a more affordable large diaphragm condenser works well on your voice as well as on acoustic guitar.

FarnkSpatula

A Shure SM7B might be worth a look...very versatile

PaulBrewer

I would think that the pres are the weak link though I also think there are many mics better suited to overheads that NT5s which can be quite 'barky'.

The Audient ASP008 with the adat out option will be outside your Euro 500 budget but gives a hell of a bang for buck.
To my ears the Audient way outperforms it's price point.

I can't see that any 8 chan pre sub E500 is going to make an improvement.

Bypassing the not particularly impressive digi 003 mic pres should raise the game for you pretty significantly

http://www.audient.com/audient/product/asp008

PMI and Warren a Claycastle Studio, both of whom post here, both own them, in fact Warren is quoted on Audient's site.

Here's an artist that parts of were recorded with the ASP (and mixed through the Audient Sumo)

http://www.myspace.com/glenbaker



If you're interested in trying one PM me.

ZV Yoda

Thanks for the replies so far..

Seziertisch wrote: »

Although I have no huge personal first hand experience of this, the general consensus with drum recording and particularly rock drum recordings is that good pres (API, Neve etc.) that you can drive a bit really bring something to the table. For €500 I don't know if there is a whole pile out there. You could also look into specific drum replacement software (like Drumagog) to augment your recordings.

In terms of electric guitar, a tube amp of some sort (doesn't have to be particularly big) with a good quality 12" speaker would be worth a look. I have messed around with quite a few of the amp sims and a 57 infront of a reasonable amp generally produces more realistic sounding results.

In terms of vocals, there is probably a mic out there that will work better than a 57 on your voice. Whether it is 500 EUR or less is another question. You might get lucky and find that a more affordable large diaphragm condenser works well on your voice as well as on acoustic guitar.

Yeah, seems to me that the pres are the current weak link, but whether or nor I’ll get a worthwhile improvement for €500 is a good question. Hadn’t thought about a guitar amp – I’m no great shakes on guitar anyway – but I think some of the sims sound quite good. I might look into some options for amps.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I would think that the pres are the weak link though I also think there are many mics better suited to overheads that NT5s which can be quite 'barky'.

The Audient ASP008 with the adat out option will be outside your Euro 500 budget but gives a hell of a bang for buck.
To my ears the Audient way outperforms it's price point.

I can't see that any 8 chan pre sub E500 is going to make an improvement.

Bypassing the not particularly impressive digi 003 mic pres should raise the game for you pretty significantly

If you're interested in trying one PM me.

Thanks Paul… I went with the N T5s based on advice here originally. I’m happy with them – in fact Dadumtish and I did a comparison of the NT5s vs. his Oktavas (012s I think)… while the Oktavas had a bit more presence, they were slightly duller, so in my room, the NT5s work better for me.

That ASP008 looks nice, but it’s about 2x my budget, (unless I picked one up 2nd hand) .

At the minute, I’m thinking that upgrading the tom mics might be the way to go (anyway, it would seem to be a shame shelling out up to a grand on the ASP008 if I was still micing the toms with those Thomann yokes)… though Seziertisch has me thinking about guitar amps too…

Any thoughts on the Profire 2626... or maybe the Octopre LE?... both were suggested as possible upgrades for the Behringer

Seziertisch

In terms of a front end upgrade the Focusrite ISA One might also be worth a look. I haven't used it, but it has gotten good reviews and it does have a digital card option that would probably be a step (or a number of steps) up from the Behringer.

In terms of guitar amps within your price range, if you could hold on for another couple of hundred € your choice would greatly increase, though it you went second hand you would probably find something quite nice of €500

PaulBrewer

Having heard the Octopre LE I think it's dirt !

dav nagle

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Hi folks,

I'm a home studio user with about 18 months “learn as you go” experience
Hardware
20" iMac 2Ghz Intel C2D 4Gb, 003 rack, Behringer ADA 8000, Command 8, Axiom 61, 20" LG LCD screen
Maxtor OneTouch4 FW/750Gb/16Mb/7200rpm (audio/session drive)
Medion 750Gb SATA/USB2/16MB/7200RPM (back up drive)

Software
OSX 10.5.7, PTLE 8.0.1, Miroslav Philharmonic Classik, Massey Tape Sat, Massey DTM
SampleTank 2.5L, T-RackS 1.3, T-Racks DeLuxe 3.1, Classik Studio Reverb, Amplitube 2 Live & Duo, Ampeg SVX UNO

Well done Yoda looks like you are coming along very well with that setup, put the money in the bank and save up for a piece of kit that will last you your lifetime.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

just to add my two cents

1/ after 2 years of mucking about on the drum recording ive decided that recording the headed drums at home , is not worth the hassle - i get pretty good results but I want great results.

2/ so im going to get a good trigger set up , either vdrum pads or practise silent kit with triggers - and record the pads via a drum module into the studio - and in some cases ( if the module dont cut it ) replace the sound with pro samples - using drum tracker to convert the wavs to midi .

OR

totally deaden down the kit with too slack tuning or too high tuning, foam in the drums etc - and just pick up the attack with mics - and use this to trigger samples in the DAW .( again using drum tracker )


3/ i am going to still record the cymbals live , while playing the pads - note i use a very good set of mics and a good pre for this ( josephson c42 and pacifica preamp )


i can then jiggery pokery sub mixes etc to recreate a cohesive sounding kit in a space of my choosing artificially .

its the same really as having a close miked dead room setup.

YODA i will let you know how it goes - its goona be fun
im going to silence the kit first and see how that goes


recently - i sold alot of attic based gear and got a secondhand mesa boogie f50 with hotplate and a stingray HH for bass - so this has imporved things immensly.
i also stripped and rebuilt my strat of paint and hardware , and put new hardware on it - also great result.
all in the search for a pro tone !



i really think you should have a least one great stereo pre and one great pair of mics .

kfoltman

ZV Yoda wrote: »

I’m thinking either replacing the tom mics (with maybe 3 x SM57s or E904s)

I don't have any experience with Thomann's brand mics, but if they're as good as their cheap headphones, then replacing them with anything better makes a lot of sense. Did you try to record a bunch of hits on a single tom with SM57 *and* a Thomann mike, on two separate tracks, and A/B between them? This may not get you the full picture, but might at least let you tell if those mikes are s***e or not.

It's hard to upgrade your weakest link when you aren't sure what really IS your weakest link. I think you really need to narrow down your "area of interest" before looking for gear options. Are you happy with your guitar sound? If you are, how much of improvement will you get from investing a grand in a new guitar amp?

Can you rent some gear (a preamp, mikes, whatever) for a test?

Probably obvious, but... did you try changing your mic-to-preamp input assignment between 003 and ADA? For example, something I'd try is to plug both snare mics to the same preamp box to avoid phase issues - these two A/D converters may have slightly different latency due to different converter chips used, leading to subtle phase shifts. Phase difference between tom and kick won't matter. But the same between top and bottom of the snare may cause ugly cancellation problems in some instances.

ZV Yoda wrote: »

I know drum/guitar/singing lessons would probably make more sense

The only "but" allowed in sentences like the one above is "but it depends on how good the teacher is". ;-)

studiorat

Thomann mic's are pretty good. I'm a fan of the ribbon mic and small mic that looks like a test mic, not too sure what it's called. The thing is they don't last, they break very easily. A shure SM-7 is also an excellent investment.

The ADA8000 is great value for the money. Especially as it does DA conversion too. I'd suggest maybe a Mackie VLZ pro or something like that so you can mix through it too. Why not get some outboard FX? A some compressors of a Lexicon or something?

It really depends on what you want to do with the product after it's recorded as to whether you want to go all out and spend €1500 on a mic pre convertor like the Audient. Personally, I'd go after something like the API 2 channel jobbie and and do any serious multitrackingwith drums etc. in a professional studio.

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

It really depends on what you want to do with the product after it's recorded as to whether you want to go all out and spend €1500 on a mic pre convertor like the Audient.

You might have a point if it was Euro 1500

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

I'm a fan of the ribbon mic and small mic that looks like a test mic, not too sure what it's called.

I'm told the Thomann ribbon is a rebadged Nady, is that correct?

Aridstarling

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I'm told the Thomann ribbon is a rebadged Nady, is that correct?

So I've heard. Looks the same, inside and out anyway. I haven't had a chance to compare the two though. Supposed to be quite good considering a sub-100 quid price tag.

madtheory

Seems to me that no amount of gear will get you a better sound in what is essentially a control room, not a studio. If you want a better drum sound, try recording them in the kitchen.

studiorat

I thought the Audient came in at around €1,300 with the adat option. Another few quid for a cable set for it and it's not far off.

The Nady mic is the same Mic as the Thomann one, they are both made in the same factory in china. As is the same mic from charter oak or someone like that. The difference is do you want it in Green or Blue?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

ok, i just tried this setup using drum agog

i filled each tom with a jumper taped to both heads inside and cranked the batter and loosend the resos .
filled the kick with blankets and towels
used my little ten inch snare tuned low and taped up , no wires

miked the lot and assigned drumagog and samples to the drum mics and mixed in the overheads - which now consist of cymbals mainly .


result = not bad at all , sounds better than doing it acoustically
needs tweaking , but i think im doing this from now on .

just need to get some good samples.

so thats going to be MY next upgrade ))))))


yoda , i think you should try this , gimme a call .

DamagedTrax

DaDumTish wrote: »

ok, i just tried this setup using drum agog

i filled each tom with a jumper taped to both heads inside and cranked the batter and loosend the resos .
filled the kick with blankets and towels
used my little ten inch snare tuned low and taped up , no wires

miked the lot and assigned drumagog and samples to the drum mics and mixed in the overheads - which now consist of cymbals mainly .


result = not bad at all , sounds better than doing it acoustically
needs tweaking , but i think im doing this from now on .

just need to get some good samples.

so thats going to be MY next upgrade ))))))


yoda , i think you should try this , gimme a call .

i was gonna suggest a good set of triggers for him. especially since he already has superior drummer.

Quiggers

the biggest problem i can see is the 11x11,
you're gonna have a very lumpy frequency response,
you've got some bass trapping, which will be helping,
but square rooms should be avoided, if they cant be then
put a big solid book shelf on a free wall and fill it with heavy
clutter, this will act as a diffuser and handy storage,
giving your exist equipment a better sound to capture.
After that i'd keep saving for some better pre's, the behringer is fantastic value for money but it seems to be the weakest link.

ZV Yoda

Dadumtish,
That’s interesting that you’re looking at the trigger option again… it’s hard to know what the best option really… I did look at switching to a triggered solution and /or Vdrums with drum replacement software/samples, but given the improvements we got the last time you were over, I’m a lot happier with the overall sound. That o/h micing technique works really well… it’s just that the kit doesn’t have that overall punch & still feels a bit flat next to the guitars/vox/VIs. I might re-look at using Massey’s "Drum To Midi" plug-in just to augment the snare & kick – it works really well on those. I just need to organise my sample library to get the best use out of that DTM plug-in.

Quiggers,
You’re right – the room will always be the weakest link. I’d love a bigger room, but there’s no chance of that anytime soon. I have done a fair bit to treat it – corner traps, cloud above kit, wooden floors, various different wall coverings etc. Likewise with mic placement. I’d say it sounds fairly good for an 11x11… but, it’s still an 11x11 at the end of the day.

Feck it, maybe I’ll just work on writing & recording the best music I can with the gear I already have… when we finally get that deal I’ll be block booking Abbey Rd for 6 months anyway… & that’s just to put the drums down!

Seziertisch

Some good stuff in this discussion

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/424425-those-dreaded-drums.html

madtheory

madtheory wrote: »

Seems to me that no amount of gear will get you a better sound in what is essentially a control room, not a studio. If you want a better drum sound, try recording them in the kitchen.

Just thought I'd repeat that...

Rockshamrover

I don't get the whole recording your own drums thing in a home studio (non-commercial set up).

It seems like an awful lot of trouble and expense to get a less than decent sound. I did see someone suggesting before that it would make more sense to let a proper studio track your drums and then add the rest of the music at home yourself.

It's probably different if drumming is your thing I suppose. I'm more than happy to use Addictive drums but I'm not a drummer and am a hobbyist.

ZV Yoda

madtheory wrote: »

Just thought I'd repeat that...

Yip, heard you the first time... I know the limitations of the room... doesn't stop me wanting to get the best sound I can though

Rockshamrover wrote: »

I don't get the whole recording your own drums thing in a home studio (non-commercial set up).

It seems like an awful lot of trouble and expense to get a less than decent sound. I did see someone suggesting before that it would make more sense to let a proper studio track your drums and then add the rest of the music at home yourself.

It's probably different if drumming is your thing I suppose. I'm more than happy to use Addictive drums but I'm not a drummer and am a hobbyist.

Right on both counts... sometimes I wish drumming wasn't my thing, but there you go... horses for courses.

As for tracking drums in a commercial studio - that's a fair point, but in my case I'm also writing music (on guitar/keyboard too) so I'm writing/re-writing & re-arranging all the time. I'm also working with another guitarist & a singer. If we need new drums laid down because a track has taken on a new direction, then the commercial studio route doesn't really fit in. Our objective is to get a publishing deal & have other artists record/release our stuff. Essentially, I suppose that means we're looking to get "good demo quality".. whatever that is.

If we were a gigging band who wanted to commercially release out stuff, then yeah, a commercial studio is the way to go.

Good points being made by all... and I'm under no illusion that I couldn't have picked a worse instrument to track in a home studio - especially one that's measures 11x11

PaulBrewer

ZV Yoda wrote: »

The kit is panned 65%:65%.

Probably not a big deal in your situation but if you pan your kit 100% L + R you're stereo will be 'real' - adjust your stereo image by adjusting the space and angles between mics , not the pans.

bedbugs

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Probably not a big deal in your situation but if you pan your kit 100% L + R you're stereo will be 'real' - adjust your stereo image by adjusting the space between mics , not the pans.

I did not know that. thanks!

Rockshamrover

ZV, if it's just for demo/song writing, you should consider the unthinkable for a drummer, and try something like Addictive or whatever. Get your ideas down on tape, stick down your guitar, bass, keys or whatever.

It frees you up for what you really want to do by the sound of things, create music.

Your stuff is already pretty high quality so maybe more time spent on creative side rather than the technical side will move things along faster for you. Maybe the effort on the drums is not worth it right now given your budget and what it is you are trying to achieve.

I hope you don't take offense at my nose poking.

PaulBrewer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereophonic_sound
http://www.rycote.com/media/pdfs/technicalfiles/The%20Stereophonic%20Zoom.pdf

If you think about it, it makes sense ...

Taking it that 'stereoness' is different from 'directivity' and always involves 2 signals that are different from each other, not just in level. The phase/time relationship between those (as opposed to a mono signal panned across L+R) is what makes stereo.

So if you mix the left signal into the right signal so you 'damage' the stereo.

madtheory

ZV Yoda wrote: »

especially one that's measures 11x11

I've gotten good sounds in similar sized rooms. If it's a live sounding room you can get some funky stuff happening.

My point is that you're tracking in a control room, not a studio. That's never going to work for drums (or pianos). Is there any possibilty of using other rooms? I've no idea of your living situation...

trackmixstudio

Preamps/converters are the very obvious improvement.
The audient is supposed to be very good as is the mackie onyx 800r.
Both have adat out and would make a big difference.
There is also a presonus digimax going on adverts.ie which would be better than the Behringer.
What I would recommend, however, is an API A2D.
It is a bit (lot?) over your budget but it a piece of gear you will always keep and never upgrade. It has 2 api pres and top class converter on spdif.
If you use one of these for overheads and drive it a bit the whole kit will jump forward out of the speakers at you. It truly is amazing to hear this thing in action. I don't kmow if Paul stocks them but Darren in studiosolutions.ie does.
If you want to call over to the studio to hear it on a kit that's no problem.

ZV Yoda

Cheers for that offer Michael... since my room is ultimately the real weak link, I'm not sure I'll really see the benefits of the API. Silk purse/sow's ear etc...

And anyway, after I did the Boards tracking session in your place during the summer, I was devastated having to go back to tracking in my wee room. I'm still trying to get my bass drum sound to jump out & kick me in the chest like it did in your place.

Having said that, I saw that Presonus on adverts & am sorely tempted. It would be a step up from the Behringer without a big outlay. Based on all the comments so far, it seems that (aside from getting a bigger/better room!) getting slightly better preamps & tom mics are the most logical upgrades. Anything more than that would just be wasted given the room acoustics.

In terms of tom mics, I’ve heard good things about the Beyer Opus 88s… they’re very compact & have a great spring-loaded clamp system. Any thoughts from folks about them?

Seziertisch

It might be worth considering going to a studio for a days tracking. If you have your playing together and the person recording knows their stuff you should be able to get quite a bit done. You might find that even with the Presonus you still might not be happy with the results.

ZV Yoda

Seziertisch wrote: »

It might be worth considering going to a studio for a days tracking. If you have your playing together and the person recording knows their stuff you should be able to get quite a bit done. You might find that even with the Presonus you still might not be happy with the results.

Yeah, I think somebody already suggested tracking drums in a proper studio... and that'd be the way to go if we were a gigging band who wanted to commercially release our stuff. I'd be knocking on Trackmix's door if that was the case.

Ideally though, we after a publishing deal (where other artists record/release our stuff). Sound-wise, that means we're looking to get "good demo quality".

woodsdenis

Just at a cursory glance I would ditch the Behringer asap. I dont know your room, but is it that bad? Everyone would like to have a room like Oceanway or Bearsville but obviously not practical.

In my experience a properly tuned drum kit with decent mics/pres will always
sound good unless you have disaster of a space to record in.

I know of one grammy winning record that was recorded in a dining room with the engineer wearing headphones, It won best engineered grammy. The drummer was/is exceptional. I would guarantee it would be impossible to make him sound bad wherever it was recorded, and what with.

The moral is if your kit sounds good it will record good unless you are really recording in an absolutely terrible space.

DTM is your friend aswell:D

ZV Yoda

woodsdenis wrote: »

Just at a cursory glance I would ditch the Behringer asap. I dont know your room, but is it that bad? Everyone would like to have a room like Oceanway or Bearsville but obviously not practical.

In my experience a properly tuned drum kit with decent mics/pres will always
sound good unless you have disaster of a space to record in.

I know of one grammy winning record that was recorded in a dining room with the engineer wearing headphones, It won best engineered grammy. The drummer was/is exceptional. I would guarantee it would be impossible to make him sound bad wherever it was recorded, and what with.

The moral is if your kit sounds good it will record good unless you are really recording in an absolutely terrible space.

DTM is your friend aswell:D

Yeah, DTM was fantastic value for $60... plus I got the Tape Head Sat too... if I'm not mistaken, it was your good self who 1st steered me towards Mr Massey!

As for "your room can't be that bad"... I suppose it could be worse, but this'll give you an idea...

woodsdenis

The room looks ok . Probably quite dead sounding but I am sure it is very workable. The great thing about your setup is being able to change it for your needs, also you know how it sounds in there.


Always experiment, try sticking a mic in the hallway off the main room etc.
You would be amazed.

trackmixstudio

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Cheers for that offer Michael... since my room is ultimately the real weak link, I'm not sure I'll really see the benefits of the API. Silk purse/sow's ear etc...

And anyway, after I did the Boards tracking session in your place during the summer, I was devastated having to go back to tracking in my wee room. I'm still trying to get my bass drum sound to jump out & kick me in the chest like it did in your place.

That would be the Sonor S Class. It sounds just like that in the room.