Tournament Systems

Owwmykneecap

In order to not derail the Gaelcon thread, but i still think its' worthy of disscussion

What i was about to post in said thread in reply:

(of double elim):
It's not thing of universal exceptance that double elim is the fairer system and I'm some mentalist

People have different opinions on it, certainly no major sport uses it.




A&M Win 6 matches, Thomas Jefferson win 5 and yet win the tourny. They both lost one, just in different places.
I can't see how thats fair.

As for an example of it encouraging defensive play...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSsTPHrA1Wc

This years evo finals Wong vs Daigo.
Compare Set 1 daigo against the agressive set 2 daigo.

and just to show I'm not completely alone on my thinking:
http://neoempire.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6266&page=17
Warning may contain Sarf Landaan slang, you slags.

Anyway, gentlemen start your furious typing

Cunny-Funt

:mad::mad:

I'll tell yea what this is! This is feckin' Arcade Tournament System ELITISM,that's what this is!!:mad::mad::mad:



Hehe I honestly have no real opinion on the matter myself. Although if your talking about set 1 there as the abel v ryu fight, I reckon thats just more to do with how daigo has to deal with a top abel player, he can't just be firing fireballs at abel. Daigo was still the more aggressive player in that match as well. That forward strong fierce bait was brilliant !

Kirby

Both systems have their merits.....

Double elimination has been primarily used as a way of garunteeing that the best players make it to the end of a tourney. the best players might make mistakes or be unlucky and be out early on. You could argue that its not fair, but you could also argue that fans want to see the best players go through to fight each other.

A good player might lose once....but its unlikely he will lose twice in a row so he will usually end up at the end anyway.

Fans want to see the best players or teams play. The Tennis is seeded so that Federer and Nadal are at opposite ends of the draw so that they avoid each other. In the champions league, United, Barca, Chelsea, Milan, etc are all seeded to avoid each other.

Double elimination is a way of painlessly seeding players. Everybody wanted to see Daigo vs Wong in the final. Single elimination wouldn't have allowed for that to happen.

Cunny-Funt

Some good points there all right kirby.

animaX

From my point of view (not being a very high-level player), I just like to make sure I can have more than one game in a tourny. I would be annoyed if I showed up and then lost a game and thats it (even though it is my fault for not being good enough!).

For that reason I liked the setup of the last inferno ranbat; initial group stage with 4 games guaranteed and then knock-out. And thats also why I like double-elimination, it means that I can play more than one game

Dreddybajs

Linking to the Evo SF4 final and claiming it's defensive because of double elimination is ridiculous, it's arguably the most defensive fighting game ever released. Link me to any other Evo final ever and show me double elim "contributing" to defensive play. Also by SF4 standards that final isn't even turtley! There's absolutely no way to provide evidence for the opinion that double elimination leads to turtley play, it's complete conjecture.

A-Trak

animaX wrote: »

For that reason I liked the setup of the last inferno ranbat; initial group stage with 4 games guaranteed and then knock-out. And thats also why I like double-elimination, it means that I can play more than one game

Fully agree with animaX here. Thought the group stage followed by double elimination worked very well at the last tourney.

A single elimination would be over very quickly, both for entrants and spectators.

Dreddybajs

Personally at the ranbats I'd prefer complete double elimination with byes in the first round for top seeds if the numbers aren't equal. This is completely biased though as I felt I got screwed over by the group setup a bit in the last one. :pac:

Kirby

I liked the group stages. It means everyone plays more matches....which is good. Getting a bye is all well and good...but its no fun! My group was mad tough...everybody beating everybody .I nearly got knocked out. But it was great fun and allows for more matches.

Imagine if you aren't much good. Single elimination is terrible for that because you could be done after one match. This leads to some people not showing up. Which leads to events dying out. This is not a good thing.

Jim

For the encouraging defensive play argument, as was said its the game of the SF4 which encourages it, and although turtle play isn't great for spectators turtles can be beat. I think style of play comes into it more so than the double elm system. Perhaps the system will encourage people to stick to their style of play and be more cautious, but if the player is a defensive turtle in a loser bracket they are going to be like that to some degree regardless.

Not really relevent to the argument, but here's a recent match from a loser bracket....turtleish doesn't really come into it :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUlfjGqorI4

Owwmykneecap

Dreddybajs wrote: »

Linking to the Evo SF4 final and claiming it's defensive because of double elimination is ridiculous,

I didn't say that, I said Set one (ignoring the able match for obv reasons) Daigo played hella more defensively than set 2 because he had the safety net of another set which wong doesnt have.

Also by Justin Wong standards that final isn't even turtley!

Fixed

There's absolutely no way to provide evidence for the opinion that double elimination leads to turtley play, it's complete conjecture.

A bit like your assertion that double elimination is somehow fairer.

Azza

That final proves nothing on its own. Daigo's default game plan might of been to play defensively regardless of weather he had a second life or not.

Owwmykneecap wrote:

A bit like your assertion that double elimination is somehow fairer.

You seem to be conceding your point here that double elimination encourages defensive gameplay. But on the other hand there seems to be clear logic behind double elimination. It gives all players a second chance if they mess up one game.

Sagat06

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

A bit like your assertion that double elimination is somehow fairer.

Firstly, you cannot judge a tournament format on a final first of all, and a final where J Wong knew he could make no mistakes against the most hyped player on the planet.
SF4 is turtle heaven, players that like to turtle will go far in this game in it's current form.

Secondly, when saying double elim is fairer for me it's mostly referring to the fact that people don't want to travel make arrangements, one fight and your out go home!

Owwmykneecap

Azza wrote: »

That final proves nothing on its own. Daigo's default game plan might of been to play defensively regardless of weather he had a second life or not.

And if he had done that without the second life, wong would have offed him and boom wins the tourny.
Daigo had a safety net and he used it. learned his opponent better and counteracted it.
Which you have all said is an unfair advantage earlier in the other thread when i said that the sets should be upped.

You seem to be conceding your point here that double elimination encourages defensive gameplay.

No but considering how long it took me to find those vids I'm not spending all day trawling through youtube.
The point here is if you are accusing me of saying stuff without proof, provide some proof for your point too.

But on the other hand there seems to be clear logic behind double elimination.

The same could be said for single elim, round robin, etc etc

[/quote]It gives all players a second chance if they mess up one game.[/quote]

True. and I don't have as much of a problem with that.
Although it takes away from the purity of straight knockouts, my main problem is in a final A person having a one set lead basically over the other before it even starts.

Double elim favours the better players who over a large amount of matches will win more.
You have said this is a bad thing.
If you want certain players in a final seeding them to split them up gives you a fair chance of that

Owwmykneecap

Sagat06 wrote: »

Secondly, when saying double elim is fairer for me it's mostly referring to the fact that people don't want to travel make arrangements, one fight and your out go home!

That's all well and good, and certainly a point worth raising, but lets be clear that has nothing to do with fairness, it's value for money.

Azza

Owwmykneecap wrote:

And if he had done that without the second life, wong would have offed him and boom wins the tourny.
Daigo had a safety net and he used it. learned his opponent better and counteracted it.
Which you have all said is an unfair advantage earlier in the other thread when i said that the sets should be upped.

You don't know Daigo would of played any differently in the first game if he had only one life.
Yeah he would of lost if he had only life but that doesn't mean he would of played any differently.
Yeah he learned to counteract his opponent in the second game, but he only had this second life because he didn't loose beforehand and earned it.
I didn't say upping the rounds is unfair either, so I'm not included in that all statement you made.

The point here is if you are accusing me of saying stuff without proof, provide some proof for your point too.

You haven't provided proof, you just posted a link of the Evo Finals and gave you own personal interpretation of the match and why you think the players played the way they did. The proof that double elimination is fairer is simply that the majority of players here seem to prefer in on that grounds. Fairness is decided on by the community that partakes in the tournaments. I can't post up a link to a match to show this because its not something you can show. Something like this is down to purely personal preference and the majority think its fairer so far. Perhaps you can persuade them otherwise.

Double elim favours the better players who over a large amount of matches will win more.
You have said this is a bad thing.

I never said that. Perhaps your talking to the community in general but your quoting me when making your points.

Seeding is used to keep the better players apart in the early stages of a tournament. The double elimination format is used to give better value for money (which isn't entirely separate from fairness) and fairness in that you get a second chance. So its both for value for money and the second chance characteristics is the two reasons why its probably the preferred format here.

Sagat06

Yes and no.

Value for money is unfortunately an important consideration nowadays. But also in any tournament there are the people who are going to make it far and the people who enjoy the challenge, now of course there may be freak results - but thats what they are freak results. To be 'fair' to the people who realistically won't go far extra stages are added to add to the attraction. You get a fringe player who gets creamed the first fight and there is a good chance you wont see him again.

Owwmykneecap

The proof that double elimination is fairer is simply that the majority of players here seem to prefer in on that grounds.

No, that might be a good reason to use it, but the fairness of a system something is not a majority rules issue. that only proves it's more popular
It may be "fairer" to use it, but that doesnt impinge on the systems actual inherent fairness.

A group stage into a single elimination tournament, would provide the best of both worlds, more guaranteed matches, into pure winner takes everything, a la the world cup.

Sagat06

Yeah it is the ideal format to use, but then your getting into time constraints group amanagement etc

The double elim means everyone gets to play at least twice whilst keeping the time taken manageable.

chopperbyrne

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

A group stage into a single elimination tournament, would provide the best of both worlds, more guaranteed matches, into pure winner takes everything, a la the world cup.

Well we play group stages into double elimination, best of three sets, only loser may change character.

Top players (via previous results) are seeded in the group stages and the group placings decide the seedings for the double elimination phase.

It does not get fairer than that.

Azza

Fairness is subjective to peoples opinions and so far most people expressed the opinion that a double elimination system is fairer than single elimination. Its popular because people believe it to be fairer. I think everyone knows how each system works and the respective pro's and con's of each at this stage, if people believed single elimination was fairer I'm sure they would say so.

The tournaments where originally single elimination when the XGC themselves ran the tournament. Many players expressed the desire to change the format so it was.

We already have a group stage in the tournament as well so we have a fixed number of games everyone will get to play.

You dislike double elimination because it doesn't fit well with your idea of "pure winner takes everything" competition. Thats fine but other people have a different interpretation of "pure winner takes everything".

Cunny-Funt

Yo kneecaps didn't you do tourneys on 2df? What format did you do them in? I played a few on 2df but they were before you began hosting 'em and were double elimination from what I remember.

Owwmykneecap

as far as I remember, the were modified double elim. Both players in the final needed to win the same amount, like the gaa.

I think by the finals it was like best of 7 matches.

Usually I'd do mid to low tier tournaments.

Edit: **** it I set one up for the laugh on Sunday the 20th @9 pm on 2df. y'all invited now.

Cunny-Funt

****in sweet. :cool:

Jim

I'm away all weekend but should be home by that time on Sunday. Count me in.

(New thread!)

K.O.Kiki

Yeah, that's... you're right, his Honda terrified me.

A-Trak, you're not allowed to be this good, y'hear!

chopperbyrne

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Yeah, that's... you're right, his Honda terrified me.

A-Trak, you're not allowed to be this good, y'hear!

Am I allowed be that good?

bush

Off topic but i love looking at those perez videos, such an exciting playeR to watch.