school not allowing change from pass to honours for class size reasons. What to do?

garmacc

School won't allow a student to transfer from pass to honours biology for the leaving cert. The student did pass science for the junior cert after being advised by teachers but without anyone consulting the parents or informing her that she wouldn;t be able to do honours biology for the leaving. The school is maintaining it's due to class size, and dragging it's heels awaiting a 'staff meeting':mad:.
What can be done?

MagicMarker

The school can't prevent you doing honours, it's not up to them, however they can stop you changing class.

If it were me I'd do honours anyway and get grinds or something.

IHeartChemistry

Thats weird cos a few girls in my year at school did pass Irish for JC and are now doing Honours for the Leaving...

They should let her move up..I mean if she's getting good grades in Bio why shouldn't they? She has a right to sit whatever level she wants to like...

Again try working on papers and maybe try and get someone to teach her outside school in maybe a grind school? Like do the subject again in another school as extra help but do it as honours...I know someone doing that for Buisness and its helping her cos she's learning extra...

Good Luck =]

Rondolfus

MagicMarker wrote: »

The school can't prevent you doing honours, it's not up to them, however they can stop you changing class.

If it were me I'd do honours anyway and get grinds or something.

Yea thats the only way. You can't expect a school to facilitate every student who wishes to move up and down levels at will. Junior Cert is generally a good indication. If the student is doing pass science for their Junior Cert they probably shouldn't be doing honours for their leaving.

Too many parents feel that it should be their decision if their kid sits honours or pass. Teachers work with the children every day. Trust their judgement or be prepared to spend the money on extra lessons.

Lawliet

Rondolfus wrote: »

Junior Cert is generally a good indication. If the student is doing pass science for their Junior Cert they probably shouldn't be doing honours for their leaving.

Bullsh1t. I did pass science for the junior cert, but did honours biology for the leaving, didn't do too badly in it either -got a B1.
There's no reason why someone couldn't do well in an honours subject having done pass before. It's like everything else; if you put the work in, you'll do well.

Rondolfus

Lawliet wrote: »

Bullsh1t. I did pass science for the junior cert, but did honours biology for the leaving, didn't do too badly in it either -got a B1.
There's no reason why someone couldn't do well in an honours subject having done pass before. It's like everything else; if you put the work in, you'll do well.

WOW your single experience has shed totally new light on this "complex" area. Thanks for your input there.

Please note the word "generally" was used. (as in GENERALLY a good indication ) That means more often then not. You happen to be in the "not" group. Why don't you post your achievement on an internet forum... oh wait you already have.

randylonghorn

Put the handbags away, folks, thank you!

Rondolfus wrote: »

Too many parents feel that it should be their decision if their kid sits honours or pass. Teachers work with the children every day. Trust their judgement or be prepared to spend the money on extra lessons.

Ideally, where there are differing opinions, the student, parents and teachers should discuss it and try to reach agreement.

KarlMarx

It's probably a politely euphemistic way of saying that they think you may not be able for it.

And you may not be - there is a higher and an ordinary level for a reason. It's no shame - many other people also do pass. I'd say take it on the chin, shoulder to the wheel and nail the pass A1! That's worth c. 60 points as far as I know.

rainbowtrout

garmacc wrote: »

School won't allow a student to transfer from pass to honours biology for the leaving cert. The student did pass science for the junior cert after being advised by teachers but without anyone consulting the parents or informing her that she wouldn;t be able to do honours biology for the leaving. The school is maintaining it's due to class size, and dragging it's heels awaiting a 'staff meeting':mad:.
What can be done?

What grade did she get in Science in Junior Cert? Did she barely scrape through or get a high grade which might indicate that she could have taken the higher level paper?

Students sign a form about midway through third year with their list of subjects and levels, in most schools it's a natural progression that a student takes a subject at ordinary level for LC if they did for JC. However science I feel is one of the few exceptions (business possibly being another) as it separates into three subjects, a student could be really good at biology and weak at physics and chemistry but their ability in biology is not reflected in their science grade.

They may have her on class size if there is 24 in the honours class. 24 is maximum size for a practical subject. It shouldn't really have anything to do with staff meetings though. It's not something that need a whole staff discussion.

She does have the right to take higher level biology, they can't force her to do ordinary level.

MagicMarker wrote: »

The school can't prevent you doing honours, it's not up to them, however they can stop you changing class.

If it were me I'd do honours anyway and get grinds or something.

I'd agree and it's the easy solution, but if she can get into the other class she would get her tuition without unnecessary expense. Parents to request a meeting with the principal perhaps?

Rondolfus wrote: »

Yea thats the only way. You can't expect a school to facilitate every student who wishes to move up and down levels at will. Junior Cert is generally a good indication. If the student is doing pass science for their Junior Cert they probably shouldn't be doing honours for their leaving.
Too many parents feel that it should be their decision if their kid sits honours or pass. Teachers work with the children every day. Trust their judgement or be prepared to spend the money on extra lessons.

I teach ag science, and I get a large number of students who took ordinary level science for junior cert and most of my students take higher level ag science for the leaving cert. I would have that attitude at the start of fifth year and tell them ' you are all capable of higher level if you put in the work' and most of the time they are. You would be surprised how much students change between JC and LC. Many students do ordinary level for junior cert because they are lazy and can't be bothered or finally in fifth year gain the maturity needed to study properly and put the work in.

I'd love you to have told that advice to a student I had three years ago. Did ordinary level science, home ec, english for junior cert. Did ag science, home ec and english at higher level for leaving cert and got honours in all of them. Did ordinary level maths for leaving cert and got an A1, she's currently studying maths and economics in NUIG with a view to becoming a teacher, she's in third year and has never repeated an exam, but she could have been written off as an ordinary level student in fifth year.

Lawliet wrote: »

Bullsh1t. I did pass science for the junior cert, but did honours biology for the leaving, didn't do too badly in it either -got a B1.
There's no reason why someone couldn't do well in an honours subject having done pass before. It's like everything else; if you put the work in, you'll do well.

Yep, as I said above plenty of students are like you and are well able.

Rondolfus wrote: »

WOW your single experience has shed totally new light on this "complex" area. Thanks for your input there.

Please note the word "generally" was used. (as in GENERALLY a good indication ) That means more often then not. You happen to be in the "not" group. Why don't you post your achievement on an internet forum... oh wait you already have.

It was better than your input anyway, putting down a student for applying themselves and making generalisations about students who WANT to work.

Rondolfus

randylonghorn wrote: »

Put the handbags away, folks, thank you!

Ideally, where there are differing opinions, the student, parents and teachers should discuss it and try to reach agreement.

I agree totally. However some parents, if allowed, would insist on their kids doing honours while totally ignoring reality. The teacher would therefore have to devout a lot of time to a student who is clearly in too deep. This is not fair on the student or the class.

From my experience if a school is reluctant to grant a class change it is usually for 2 very valid reasons. 1) They simply don't have the resources to accomadate it and 2) the student is not capable. Many parents won't accept either reason.

Lawliet

Rondolfus wrote: »

WOW your single experience has shed totally new light on this "complex" area. Thanks for your input there.

Please note the word "generally" was used. (as in GENERALLY a good indication ) That means more often then not. You happen to be in the "not" group. Why don't you post your achievement on an internet forum... oh wait you already have.

And sarcasm is always helpful and appreciated. :rolleyes:

Anyway you seem to have missed my point. I wasn't claiming to be an exception to any rule, I'm saying the rule i.e. that the Junior cert is a good indication of how you'll do in the leaving cert, is bullsh1t.

In my "single experience" as you put it, the junior cert is not a good indicator for these sorts of things -unless you've failed something, then it's advisable not to jump up a level. My point was that junior cert results mean nothing when it comes to the leaving cert, and I don't just apply this to myself, I've seen quite a number of people whose grades have risen or fallen -both dramatically and not so dramatically- from their junior cert grades. 'How can this be?' you might cry, well simply put, the junior cert is different. It's doesn't really matter if you did crap in your junior cert exam or if you've never done the subject before, because all the information you need for the leaving cert exam is in your textbook and all you need to do is to sit down and learn it.
And as I've said before there's no reason why someone couldn't do well in an honours subject having done pass before. It's like everything else; if you put the work in, you'll do well.

Rondolfus

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yep, as I said above plenty of students are like you and are well able.

It was better than your input anyway, putting down a student for applying themselves and making generalisations about students who WANT to work.

If you have a significant number of students switching from pass to honours than maybe you should re-evaluate how you stream classes in the first place. Seems like its a problem with your school.

In my school we teach students to work hard from first year. Therefore we have a pretty good indication of their standard by 5th year. May I suggest you do the same instead of this wishy washy appraoch such as " oohh if you apply yourself you can achieve anything" or " students change after 3rd year and miraculously become better students." I don't buy that. Its the easy way out for teachers. They don't up their "teaching gear" until exam years. Its a joke, but its all too prevalent in Irish schools

Rondolfus

Lawliet wrote: »

It's like everything else; if you put the work in, you'll do well.

LOL another idealist. nice thought but I think we all know thats not true.

randylonghorn

Rondolfus wrote: »

If you have a significant number of students switching from pass to honours than maybe you should re-evaluate how you stream classes in the first place.

Streaming is not an exact science.

Rondolfus wrote: »

Therefore we have a pretty good indication of their standard by 5th year.

In fairness, I thinks that's true for most schools / students.

However, you will always have the students who do a lot of growing up in the first few years of second-level, perhaps decide on a career or at least an area which they are interested in, and start to settle down and apply themselves.

Now, can I suggest that people here apply themselves to seeing if they can offer any helpful thoughts to the OP ...

Lawliet

Rondolfus wrote: »

LOL another idealist. nice thought but I think we all know thats not true.

Why wouldn't it be true? Anyone who familiarises themselves with the syllabus, puts effort into learning the required material, practises diagrams and past papers, recognises which parts of the course are more likely to come up than others, and has a good exam technique, can do very well in the leaving cert exams.
It's not idealistic to know this.

jaffa20

Rondolfus wrote: »

If you have a significant number of students switching from pass to honours than maybe you should re-evaluate how you stream classes in the first place. Seems like its a problem with your school.

In my school we teach students to work hard from first year. Therefore we have a pretty good indication of their standard by 5th year. May I suggest you do the same instead of this wishy washy appraoch such as " oohh if you apply yourself you can achieve anything" or " students change after 3rd year and miraculously become better students." I don't buy that. Its the easy way out for teachers. They don't up their "teaching gear" until exam years. Its a joke, but its all too prevalent in Irish schools

Junior cert is certainly not a good indication. I did pass science for jc also and got a b and then moved up to honours biology as it was the only part of science i enjoyed. i loved it and got an A2. People will be of a different mindset and a different level of maturity as they approach leaving cert level that they can make their own decisions about what they are good at and at what level they want to do it at. At JC, most students are clueless and really don't understand or care about what they are studying. Generally, of course.

Rondolfus

Lawliet wrote: »

Why wouldn't it be true? Anyone who familiarises themselves with the syllabus, puts effort into learning the required material, practises diagrams and past papers, recognises which parts of the course are more likely to come up than others, and has a good exam technique, can do very well in the leaving cert exams.
It's not idealistic to know this.

Its simply not the case. Some students can work very hard at a subject and simply not be able to grasp it. This is particulary true with Maths, but applies to everything. Sometimes it comes down to natural ability.

Getting back to the OP as we were requested to do, I suggest the students parents sit down with him/her and make a decision quickly. If the student is capable of "moving up" but is not allowed, they should attend the class but also attend grinds. If living in Dublin, the institute of education on lesson street provide great grinds for biology.

spurious

Talk to your local FF/Green TD about the cuts.


It's not just the special needs kids (who can't fight back) that they hockeyed.

gaeilgebeo

IHeartChemistry wrote: »

Thats weird cos a few girls in my year at school did pass Irish for JC and are now doing Honours for the Leaving...

They should let her move up..I mean if she's getting good grades in Bio why shouldn't they? She has a right to sit whatever level she wants to like...

Again try working on papers and maybe try and get someone to teach her outside school in maybe a grind school? Like do the subject again in another school as extra help but do it as honours...I know someone doing that for Buisness and its helping her cos she's learning extra...

Good Luck =]

Thats interesting about the girls who did pass irish for the junior cert and are now doing honours for the Leaving Cert. I definitly wouldn't recommend it as they're worlds apart. You'd need to get a good grade in honours junior cert irish to be able to cope with the literature of higher level leaving cert.

namoosh

garmacc wrote: »

School won't allow a student to transfer from pass to honours biology for the leaving cert. The student did pass science for the junior cert after being advised by teachers but without anyone consulting the parents or informing her that she wouldn;t be able to do honours biology for the leaving. The school is maintaining it's due to class size, and dragging it's heels awaiting a 'staff meeting':mad:.
What can be done?

TUI and ASTI have directive out that max class size in a practical class is 24 and 30 in theory class. I'd say thats the problem, the principal hasn't the balls to face down the staff and is kicking to touch. My advice is to try to meet the hons biology teacher and ask he/she to take in the student. Its a lot harder to say no face to face.

spurious

There are insurance issues in practical classes.

All fun and games until someone loses an eye.:)

namoosh

spurious wrote: »

There are insurance issues in practical classes.

All fun and games until someone loses an eye.:)

Or pension levy, increased taxation and bloated teachers union seeking to regain credibility.

spurious

namoosh wrote: »

Or pension levy, increased taxation and bloated teachers union seeking to regain credibility.

Eh?
Not quite sure where you're going there, but if there is an incident where a child is injured in a class with numbers above the level approved by the insurance company, they will not be covered, so there is a limit beyond which the school can pack them into a class. The union has nothing to do with it.

rainbowtrout

Rondolfus wrote: »

If you have a significant number of students switching from pass to honours than maybe you should re-evaluate how you stream classes in the first place. Seems like its a problem with your school.

In my school we teach students to work hard from first year. Therefore we have a pretty good indication of their standard by 5th year. May I suggest you do the same instead of this wishy washy appraoch such as " oohh if you apply yourself you can achieve anything" or " students change after 3rd year and miraculously become better students." I don't buy that. Its the easy way out for teachers. They don't up their "teaching gear" until exam years. Its a joke, but its all too prevalent in Irish schools

No we have a mixed ability set up here. I don't think I need to explain that any further. I also don't teach junior cert science or any junior subject for that matter so I don't have any say in what level they sit the exam at and while I have an idea what the students are like I haven't had close contact with them. Anyway about half of the student coming into my ag science class in fifth year have done ordinary level science for junior cert and if I can push them to do higher level for leaving cert I will. My approach is far from wishy washy, but maybe from what you're saying I should just let them sit the ordinary level paper because that's what they did previously despite the fact they maybe capable of more.

namoosh

spurious wrote: »

Eh?
Not quite sure where you're going there, but if there is an incident where a child is injured in a class with numbers above the level approved by the insurance company, they will not be covered, so there is a limit beyond which the school can pack them into a class. The union has nothing to do with it.

In my centre teachers have walked out of practical classes (computer) because there are 25 in the class and cited the TUI/ASTI directive to the students and principal, this clearly is not an insurance issue, I can understand with a cookery class but science, biology computers?

rainbowtrout

namoosh wrote: »

I can understand with a cookery class but science, biology computers?

What's not to understand? All the subjects you have named are practical subjects. Teachers are timetabled for say 5 classes of biology a week, any one of those classes can be used for practical work, therefore there should only be a max of 24 in a class at any one time.

Labs, especially in newer schools are only designed to accommodate 24 students. There is room for no more than 24 in the labs in my school.

randylonghorn

I doubt if the OP is going to get anything more useful out of this discussion ... if ye really want to continue it, take it to T&L please.